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AXI 5330/FAI

Old 04-06-2006, 09:00 AM
  #101  
patternflyer1
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Default RE: AXI 5330/FAI

I was, and will again soon, running the 22x12 prop on the F3A motor and I liked it. I also tried a 21x13 wide and it was ok. I think Tom's running a 20x13 wide as he needs more ground clearance, plus it keeps his amps down. I still want to experiment more and pull actual "in flight" numbers. Not just WOT on the ground numbers as these don't mean squat in flight. I will at some point after I get the Focus done post my findings. Plus I happen to know a guy (Tom) with a data logger I can borrow.
Anyway, packing up for the field...
Chris
Old 04-07-2006, 06:40 AM
  #102  
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Default RE: AXI 5330/FAI

Hello.
Here is something I don't understand about the Axi 5330/F3A.
Manufacturers literature states max. current 72A / 20 sec.
They also recommend an APC-E 22 x 12.
But you guys say that the motor will (typically) draw 85A with that propeller?

Some naive questions:
Does this mean that Model Motors have not tested their own motor to find a suitable propeller?
Or is their max. current rating wrong?
Will the batteries even survive the 85A load?
(I use TP 6000's, which are bigger than most people use.)

Anybody tested this motor to find a propeller that gives 70A load?

Magne
Old 04-07-2006, 09:01 AM
  #103  
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Default RE: AXI 5330/FAI

Ok, no one seems to get when I say, flight conditions are not the same as WOT on the ground. Yes 85 amps is possible on the ground WOT. You are not going to fly this motor at full throttle unless your flying a tank.
Tom is running a 20x13 I believe and I think he's at 70 amps. Don't quote me, I think this is what I remember discussing with him. I saw the him fly the genesis yesterday and I noticed very little difference in flight speed from his with the 20x13 and mine with the 22x12. Once I get the Focus done I will try the 20x13 also.
Obviuosly we don't have enough flights yet to know battery longevity. We're working on that.
Tom is running 6000's also, but he's testing some Flight Power 3700's and they look really good. I may switch to 4200's for contests and stay with the 5300's for practice and setup.
We will post the results good or bad as I would hate to tell someone something incorrect and run into them somewhere.
I can't tell you that model motors did or didn't test these motors. I have no dealings with them.
Chris
Old 04-07-2006, 10:18 AM
  #104  
eflier
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Default RE: AXI 5330/FAI

Not exactly a pattern flier but am getting started at it.....my thinking has for the past dozen years been that if I can swing the same size prop at the same rpm in the same size and weight model as my " competition" then I have ample power. How important is efficiency of a motor anyway ( within reason) ....say one is 89% and the other is 86 %...who will in reality notice the difference in real life? Not me.
I have flown Hacker motors, they are on the expensive side, they work fine.
I have flown lots of the Axi stuff...granted not the FAI motor, but they have worked flawlessly for me, and I have no doubt that they are excellent...still fly the Maxcim line in some of my models...they are absolutely the most reliable and bulletproof motor I have ever flown, and to boot they have the smoothest speed controller on the market bar none. 99% of us don't need the power that the serious guys want anyway....nor do we need the most " efficient" motor on the market. What percentage of us are into serious competition?? There are so many good products out there, that it's not real easy to make a bad mistake.
From my point of view, I need a power system that will power my model to do the intended job, but I have to be totally honest about " the intended job" If I am flying intermediate, why would I need a system that would have the same specs as someone who flies at the very top level in North America ? Through the past dozen years or so, I have seen guys with cheap systems that are junk, but I have also seen inexpensive systems that are outstanding. I had models that were capable of being flown in the lower classes ten years ago ...and they were no more expensive than the glo counterparts. I look at it this way....power for your intended purpose, and you don't have to break the bank to do it...and you will be rewarded with a model that works well and at a reasonable price....Axi works well, and at a reasonable price..therefore it's a winner...I don't judge an electric system by how much it costs, or the theoretical efficiency of the motor..I judge it by performance .
sorry for the " soapbox" lecture, but I've been flying exclusively electric since waaaaay before it was cool, and think most of us are being separated from more of our money than necessary in order to do the job we require electrically.
Old 04-08-2006, 03:01 PM
  #105  
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Default RE: AXI 5330/FAI

With my AXI F3A motor, well used TP 6000, and a 22x12 prop, I got a max amps of 74... now that was also without a 'topping off' charge on the batts, and they were charged the day before, or the day before that... so they likely would have produced a bit more power had I a fresh charge on them. I previously had recorded numbers with that motor, prop, and batteries with fewer cycles an RPM of 5800 and a draw of 85 amps.

As far as battery longevity... I have two sets of TP 6000s... one set has just over 150 cycles, the other probably about 140. I don't have the notebooks with me right now (at work) but each pack has roughly 70 cycles with each set on the AXI... the batteries are still going strong.

As for the numbers published by AXI... they are well on the conservative side of things. And from my experience, running the motor the way I have for what... 150-160 flights or so? I'm not concerned about burning up either motor or tha batteries. having said that, most of the time the motor is only drawing 30-45 amps in level flight, and it's only in the verticals that it's pulling more than 70. Actually i have used a data logger and know that by flying the Masters sequence I am only pulling a max of 74 amps, and that is only for 3 seconds or so... actually had one flight with my Flight Power batts and the max amp was just 56. Granted that's kind of low, but the point is your aren't actually going to fly anywhere near the WOT static reading of 85 amps.

As far as Motocalc goes... I can understand the need for using it to compare motors before purchase to a certain extent. However, I have never seen Motocalcs numbers really translate into what you see at the field. Of course i used an early version before i discarded it as junk...
Old 04-19-2006, 08:10 AM
  #106  
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Default RE: AXI 5330/FAI

ExFokerFlyer

I have the latest version of Motorcalc and to be honest its no better than the original, but it does give a guide on what can be achived if you need that level of advise, so it can serve a usefull purpose for those not fully up to speed on electrics, its better than floundering in the gobbledegoop that most people give out.

Mike
Old 04-19-2006, 11:23 AM
  #107  
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Default RE: AXI 5330/FAI

I agree with you Mike, used properly it can give you an idea as to what to expect from certain motors. And really, it's best use is to help you whittle down a few choices for a new application. But I do read where guys are putting WAY too much weight into what that program says... to the point that if they don't get the predicted performance in actuality, they are confused and throw up their hands.

With the speed that battery technology and motor technology are changing, it would be really tough to keep software like that truly accurate.
Old 05-02-2006, 07:40 PM
  #108  
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Default RE: AXI 5330/FAI

Looking at the numbers, I find that this motor would like to turn about 7500 rpm at 35 volts. You'd need a relatively small prop (18x10?) to keep the current down at this rpm. Somehow loading it down to 5800 rpm doesn't sound like the thing to do. I wouldn't expect the batteries to like 85 Amps but maybe it all works in the air because you never fully load the prop. We need rpm, voltage and current in a long vertical climb to tell what is going on.

Jim O


ORIGINAL: ExFokkerFlyer

With my AXI F3A motor, well used TP 6000, and a 22x12 prop, I got a max amps of 74... now that was also without a 'topping off' charge on the batts, and they were charged the day before, or the day before that... so they likely would have produced a bit more power had I a fresh charge on them. I previously had recorded numbers with that motor, prop, and batteries with fewer cycles an RPM of 5800 and a draw of 85 amps.

Old 05-02-2006, 10:07 PM
  #109  
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Default RE: AXI 5330/FAI

Well the set up works and flys pretty well. The flight speed is the only thing that needs to be settled at this time, and that's model and pilot specific anyway. I have switched to a 20x15 prop, and will get some numbers as far as current draw and watts soon (keep forgetting to do that). Fact is the contest season is getting into gear and I'm more concerned now with consistant radii on my square corners than amps right now.

As far as the batteries go... well what can I say that I haven't said before? The batteries are fine. I have two sets of TP 6000s with 150+ and 160+ cycles on them respectively, and that is about 180-200 flights with the AXI with the high current set up that 'will damage' the batteries... and they are still good batteries with a lot of life left in them. I have shelved them though, and am using Flight Power batteries and have 40 cycles on one set, and about twenty more split between the other two sets... all doing fine.

Jim, I'm not really sure what numbers you are using to come up with what the motor would like, but I have several hundred flights with the motor and it has performed beatifully every single time. Maybe I am not running it to it's full potential... maybe a smaller prop is the best way to go. But numbers with any of these motors, to me at least, are just guidelines and not to be taken as gospel. The only way to find out how they are going to run is to go and try different combinations, see how it goes.

We need rpm, voltage and current in a long vertical climb to tell what is going on.
I think it's more practical to record current and volts during an actual pattern flight than to put the equipment into a situation it would never see under normal flight. I have done the full power climbs to get this data, but while it's interesting, and necessary from a set up perspective to see what is going to work or possibly fail at some point... isn't the whole point to find out how the airplane flys? If it has enough power?

AXIs are less than half the cost of a Hacker... it's cheap enough to experiment with.

Tom M
Old 05-02-2006, 10:42 PM
  #110  
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Default RE: AXI 5330/FAI

"AXIs are less than half the cost of a Hacker... it's cheap enough to experiment with."
with the exception of there outrunners now The a-50, a-60 series from $150 -$270, Andrew Jesky is doing an A-60-22s @ $240, But yes cheaper than the C50-XL, by alot.
[link]http://www.espritmodel.com/[/link]
Steve Maxwell
Old 05-03-2006, 11:16 AM
  #111  
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Default RE: AXI 5330/FAI

Steve,

Good call on the Hacker outrunners. I wasn't referring to them obviously as their prices are pretty well in line with the AXIs. Those are indeed cheap enough to experiment with as well. However, if you were to run those motors strickly as the spec sheets call for it, my hunch is you might be disappointed. The spec sheets are probably overly conservative and with for example the A60 M18's max watts of 2200 for 15 seconds... well that's not a lot of power... though I didn't see what prop that was used for that spec. Also the M motors are listed as max amps of 55. That's pretty low...

I'm not talking smack about the motors here, all I am trying to say is that you are likely going to have to operate the motor in a higher power band to get the kind of power we want for pattern. I'm sure the motor will work well and provide enough power, I just don't think it's going to happen at 55 amps.

But then again, I don't have any experience with these motors, and I am looking forward to seeing them fly. We will have one shortly here in D7.
Old 05-03-2006, 12:03 PM
  #112  
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Default RE: AXI 5330/FAI

ORIGINAL: ExFokkerFlyer

Steve,

Good call on the Hacker outrunners. I wasn't referring to them obviously as their prices are pretty well in line with the AXIs. Those are indeed cheap enough to experiment with as well. However, if you were to run those motors strickly as the spec sheets call for it, my hunch is you might be disappointed. The spec sheets are probably overly conservative and with for example the A60 M18's max watts of 2200 for 15 seconds... well that's not a lot of power... though I didn't see what prop that was used for that spec. Also the M motors are listed as max amps of 55. That's pretty low...

I'm not talking smack about the motors here, all I am trying to say is that you are likely going to have to operate the motor in a higher power band to get the kind of power we want for pattern. I'm sure the motor will work well and provide enough power, I just don't think it's going to happen at 55 amps.

But then again, I don't have any experience with these motors, and I am looking forward to seeing them fly. We will have one shortly here in D7.
Dave Lockhart has been running the 60-20?S....up into the 70A levels....18x11 glow prop or something like that.

Hacker is known for conservative ratings on their small outrunners, no surpise the trend continues on the big stuff as well.
Old 05-04-2006, 01:34 AM
  #113  
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Default RE: AXI 5330/FAI

Hey Chad,

Got your Evo yet?

I have emailed Plett a few times and they still say it will be soon but that it is new technology and to be patient.

Cheers

Malcolm
Old 05-04-2006, 07:02 AM
  #114  
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Default RE: AXI 5330/FAI

ORIGINAL: Malcolm H

Hey Chad,

Got your Evo yet?

I have emailed Plett a few times and they still say it will be soon but that it is new technology and to be patient.

Cheers

Malcolm
Nope...I am expecting June at this point.

The changed the winding design and winding material apparently from the prototype version, I guess they felt that the first versions were running too hot.

I spoke with a fellow at Plett the other day by phone and was told the prototype of the new version was done and being tested this week...and if all went well it would be another 4 weeks before they would have a number of motors produced.

For now I still use the original 30-10 on the 21x14 prop with the new Twister and its working great.....59A peak in flight, runs cool and lots of power for any sequence.
Old 05-04-2006, 12:13 PM
  #115  
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Default RE: AXI 5330/FAI

Yes,

The A60-20S 245 KV specs seem very conservative. Depending on lipo temp (TP 10S 5300s), static numbers w/ 18x11 glow prop are on the order of 68 amps, 36 volts, 7800 RPM. On a windy 70F day, 9 minutes takeoff to landing flying PO7 yields temps on the can of about 95F. Lipos are ~110 and CC HV85 is ambient. I'll be trying some bigger props in the next couple flights.

Regards,

Dave Lockhart
Team JR
Team Castle Creations


ORIGINAL: can773
Dave Lockhart has been running the 60-20?S....up into the 70A levels....18x11 glow prop or something like that.

Hacker is known for conservative ratings on their small outrunners, no surpise the trend continues on the big stuff as well.
[/quote]
Old 05-05-2006, 01:43 AM
  #116  
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Default RE: AXI 5330/FAI

Thank you, David. That is very useful information.

I don't understand why Hacker are under-rating their product in this way.
For pattern, it ought to be the S-version of the A60 that should be used. (595 grams against 695 grams for the M-version, but only rated at 50A peak.)
For the A60-16M (Kv 215 rpm) the suggested prop is 21x12 on 10s.
Hopefully the A60-22S (also Kv 215 rpm) should be able to take a similar prop size, rather than the suggested 20x10.

It would be interesting to hear how your motor (20S) handles a 19x12WE or a 20x12WE. (???)

Magne
Old 05-05-2006, 08:04 AM
  #117  
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Default RE: AXI 5330/FAI

ORIGINAL: Malcolm H

Hey Chad,

Got your Evo yet?

I have emailed Plett a few times and they still say it will be soon but that it is new technology and to be patient.

Cheers

Malcolm
Hi Malcolm

I got this email this morning...

Dear Chad,

good news, the protoype is ready and fantastic, so we´ll begin to produce
next week
So they should be available soon

Sorry to hijack the axi thread
Old 05-05-2006, 08:57 AM
  #118  
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Default RE: AXI 5330/FAI

Hi Chad,

Excellent news!

Sorry to post this here too.

Malcolm
Old 05-05-2006, 01:39 PM
  #119  
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Default RE: AXI 5330/FAI

It looks to me if one wants to throw a large prop like the C50 14XL, the A60-18M or -20M would be the choice with Kv of 190 or170. The M size is rated at 2200 W so the load could be 62.5 Amps at 35 Volts and still be okay. If it is truly under-rated it is even better.

I guess we need a Hacker outrunner thread. Sorry.

Jim O


ORIGINAL: Magne

Thank you, David. That is very useful information.

I don't understand why Hacker are under-rating their product in this way.
For pattern, it ought to be the S-version of the A60 that should be used. (595 grams against 695 grams for the M-version, but only rated at 50A peak.)
For the A60-16M (Kv 215 rpm) the suggested prop is 21x12 on 10s.
Hopefully the A60-22S (also Kv 215 rpm) should be able to take a similar prop size, rather than the suggested 20x10.

It would be interesting to hear how your motor (20S) handles a 19x12WE or a 20x12WE. (???)

Magne
Old 05-06-2006, 07:18 AM
  #120  
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Default RE: AXI 5330/FAI

Magne

The underrating by Haker may have something to do with the Consumer protection Act in Germany, it puts the onus on the manufacturer to achive published results with all of its products in other words all Motors must draw the same amount of power at a given voltage and load, so it is wise to underrate the motor in case of anomalies. Thats why Porsche have performance better than that in the publicity.

Mike
Old 05-06-2006, 06:11 PM
  #121  
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Default RE: AXI 5330/FAI

Ok.
I started a "Hacker A60 for Pattern / F3A" thread.
Anybody got information on this motor yet?

Magne

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