Battery longevity
02-20-2006, 02:21 PM
#51
RE: Battery longevity
Fabrizio,
Not sure if you have seen this thread or not. There is a pretty good discussion on the topic of amps as it relates to what the batteries "see" with respect to ESC function. It's actually on the third page of the AXI 53XX thread, follow the link below.
It's all been covered before and I don't want to get into it again, but both sides of the arguement are presented in the thread, allowing you to make up your own mind.
[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3212114/mpage_3/key_/tm.htm]AXI Thread[/link]
Tom Messer
Not sure if you have seen this thread or not. There is a pretty good discussion on the topic of amps as it relates to what the batteries "see" with respect to ESC function. It's actually on the third page of the AXI 53XX thread, follow the link below.
It's all been covered before and I don't want to get into it again, but both sides of the arguement are presented in the thread, allowing you to make up your own mind.
[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3212114/mpage_3/key_/tm.htm]AXI Thread[/link]
Tom Messer
02-20-2006, 02:25 PM
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RE: Battery longevity
ORIGINAL: Adamg-RCU
You don't need a 90A ESC for a pattern plane.
You don't need a 90A ESC for a pattern plane.
Please can you quantify this statement as it can be construed as misleading
Big Owdlad
02-20-2006, 02:42 PM
#53
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RE: Battery longevity
ORIGINAL: can773
Fred
Quite frankly CBA and other testing is not remotely close to results myself and others see while running TP packs in F3A applications.
You can quote all the static air testing you want where those performing the tests let the temps soar to rediculously high values....its not realistic in an F3A application. Our packs see a huge amount of forced air cooling through the entire flight...I have rarely ever seen one of my packs go above 50C (122F) post flight. Testing a pack and letting it run at 180F and having a failure is not representative of real world.
Fact is the Prolites are great cells in real world applications, which is where it matters.
To the original posting at hand...my highest cycle pack is sitting about 75 cycles (TP 5300) perfect balance and the same V under load that it had as new....not noticable degredation that I can tell. I have "heard" of others running well over 100 cycles, but ExFokkerFlyer is the only one that I trust has valid #'s
I think a lot of people guess at their cycles! and are way off!
If you have 4 packs of Prolites and claim 200 cycles each you would have needed to flown 800 flights since about June of 2005!
ORIGINAL: Fred Marks
To the contrary: Lots of evidence in the following threads. All these come from independent testers and modelers, not from Kokam or TP. The attached is a plot of the temperature data from the battery test data taken by a massive set of modelers who did tests with the CBA. The KOK 3200has performance superior to any RC cell as seen in the data from Wattflyer. The internal resistance is so much lower that RC Tester plots show the KOK 3200 delivering 64 amps continuously with temperature just slightly exceeding 140 deg F.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3628
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...ghlight=TESTER
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=336
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=473158
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1661
www.trextuning.com
To the contrary: Lots of evidence in the following threads. All these come from independent testers and modelers, not from Kokam or TP. The attached is a plot of the temperature data from the battery test data taken by a massive set of modelers who did tests with the CBA. The KOK 3200has performance superior to any RC cell as seen in the data from Wattflyer. The internal resistance is so much lower that RC Tester plots show the KOK 3200 delivering 64 amps continuously with temperature just slightly exceeding 140 deg F.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3628
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...ghlight=TESTER
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=336
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=473158
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1661
www.trextuning.com
Quite frankly CBA and other testing is not remotely close to results myself and others see while running TP packs in F3A applications.
You can quote all the static air testing you want where those performing the tests let the temps soar to rediculously high values....its not realistic in an F3A application. Our packs see a huge amount of forced air cooling through the entire flight...I have rarely ever seen one of my packs go above 50C (122F) post flight. Testing a pack and letting it run at 180F and having a failure is not representative of real world.
Fact is the Prolites are great cells in real world applications, which is where it matters.
To the original posting at hand...my highest cycle pack is sitting about 75 cycles (TP 5300) perfect balance and the same V under load that it had as new....not noticable degredation that I can tell. I have "heard" of others running well over 100 cycles, but ExFokkerFlyer is the only one that I trust has valid #'s
I think a lot of people guess at their cycles! and are way off!If you have 4 packs of Prolites and claim 200 cycles each you would have needed to flown 800 flights since about June of 2005!
These packs are fully insulated (Wrapped in Inpad) with no airflow over them. After flying the P05 schedule the temperature of these packs never exceeded more than 45 Centigrade even in hot conditions.
Chad
On your posting on the GBRCAA forum you say you use an Axi 5330/24. I would welcome any Info on this set up i.e. Prop Current, etc.
Big Owdlad
02-20-2006, 02:53 PM
#54
RE: Battery longevity
ORIGINAL: Greg Covey
ExFokkerFlyer,
I agree. I am not condemning the Saehan cells. Please keep in mind that ThunderPower is merely a pack maker and many vendors sell the same Saehan cells. For example, Impact which is distributed by RipMax in the UK.
The Kokam 4800mAh cells are new 20C cells that can deliver 100amps of current. Until recently, FMA Direct did not manufacture big packs due to liability issues which have now been resolved through cell monitoring techniques in the Cellpro and BalancePro HD lines. Recall Steve Neu's column in Quiet Flyer a year ago called, "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly", which was about pack assembly quality. FMA's Kokam packs were the good and ThunderPower's were the ugly. A quality circuit board with proper strain relief on the discharge wires does add weight but it beats tabs soldered together and wrapped by strapping tape any day.
You can view the life cycle testing charts on RCU in this thread called, [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3559995/tm.htm]FMA Li Po Pack Life of 452 Cycles at Heavy RC Discharge Rates[/link]. It is obvious that the ThunderPower cells are over-rated.
Several units exist to monitor airborn current draw. I recently reviewed one that was easy to use on any system and simply connected to a USB port on your PC to download the data. You can read the review [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/article_display.cfm?article_id=634]here[/link]. I am glad to see your passion for electric flight!
can773,
I agree. If the pack works for you, I cannot dispute that. The point that I seem to be failing to make is that a 1p solution will be superior to a 3p or 4p solution in general. The weight advantages of a 4p solution are negated and cell monitoring techniques are masked with parallel cells. Please review my links again as they are real data from independent sources. The cycle life data is from Nathan Gwozdecki. The independent sources are still setting up for automated cycle life testing. Nathan Gwozdecki has been doing this for many years now.
Running a pack for testing at 1C is no use at all. The data shown in my links makes it clear that the TP and TANIC packs get very hot, much more than a Kokam in either 3200mAh or 2P10S of the 2000mAh size. We already can show that the KOK 2000 goes 450 cycles while the TP 2100 goes 38 cycles at rated C. Adam states a 5S pack for F3A and at 60 amps he quotes that is only about 1250 watts when we know an F3A has to peak at about 2700 watts and run about 1750 watts average. I question whether Adam has ever flown an F3A airplane or equipped one to test it. I have nothing against Adam, I simply don't understand his point of view or justifications.
Some conclusions at this time:
[ul][*] Thunderpower packs in the application at 2700 watts in a 3P config are drawing a peak of 75 amps or 25 amps/parallel pack. Even with cooling, the pack will reach at least 160 degrees and have a short lifespan. [*] If you run a 1P pack of KOK 3200, it will reach 160 Deg F and have a short cycle life of about 50 cycles. [*] If you run a KOK 2000 10S2P, that is about 35 amps and life cycle will be about 60 cycles.[*] If you run a TANIC pack in 2p, it will go over 175 Deg F and fry in one or two runs.[*] The KOK 3200 in 10S2P does not even warm up, delivers all that is needed in duration, and delivers by far the greatest wattage. The airplane has to be light to carry the 3.66 lb weight. [*] The best pack for 2006 will be, without doubt, the KOK 4.8 AH at 2.5 lb. It will provide everything needed and give life cycle of at least 500 cycles.
[/ul]
Further Observations:
The only reasons that ThunderPower had any success at the competition level even at top class level can be summarized as follows:
[ul][*] ThunderPower was giving away packs[*] All the competitors were converting existing IC designs which were heavy airframes which meant that no KOKAM solution could be offered due to the 5 KILO weight restriction. The ThunderPower solutions were under powered on the vertical maneuvers compared to IC machines.[*] The Patternship manufacturers know nothing about electrics or the art of building an electric airframe light enough but strong enough.[*] A world-class F3A pattern plane draws over 90 amps on the pull up vertical maneuvers with a 10S voltage.[*] At least 4Ah is needed to complete a single schedule with all likely wind conditions, 5AH is preferred for a strong finish.[*] The pilot at this level needs the pack to be stiff during the schedule flight so that there is no power fade, remember these guys at top level are watching that plane like a hawk for the smoothness of flight and when he wants power it must be there immediately. They are judged on the presence of the flight .
[/ul]
ExFokkerFlyer,
I agree. I am not condemning the Saehan cells. Please keep in mind that ThunderPower is merely a pack maker and many vendors sell the same Saehan cells. For example, Impact which is distributed by RipMax in the UK.
The Kokam 4800mAh cells are new 20C cells that can deliver 100amps of current. Until recently, FMA Direct did not manufacture big packs due to liability issues which have now been resolved through cell monitoring techniques in the Cellpro and BalancePro HD lines. Recall Steve Neu's column in Quiet Flyer a year ago called, "The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly", which was about pack assembly quality. FMA's Kokam packs were the good and ThunderPower's were the ugly. A quality circuit board with proper strain relief on the discharge wires does add weight but it beats tabs soldered together and wrapped by strapping tape any day.
You can view the life cycle testing charts on RCU in this thread called, [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_3559995/tm.htm]FMA Li Po Pack Life of 452 Cycles at Heavy RC Discharge Rates[/link]. It is obvious that the ThunderPower cells are over-rated.
Several units exist to monitor airborn current draw. I recently reviewed one that was easy to use on any system and simply connected to a USB port on your PC to download the data. You can read the review [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/article_display.cfm?article_id=634]here[/link]. I am glad to see your passion for electric flight!
can773,
I agree. If the pack works for you, I cannot dispute that. The point that I seem to be failing to make is that a 1p solution will be superior to a 3p or 4p solution in general. The weight advantages of a 4p solution are negated and cell monitoring techniques are masked with parallel cells. Please review my links again as they are real data from independent sources. The cycle life data is from Nathan Gwozdecki. The independent sources are still setting up for automated cycle life testing. Nathan Gwozdecki has been doing this for many years now.
Running a pack for testing at 1C is no use at all. The data shown in my links makes it clear that the TP and TANIC packs get very hot, much more than a Kokam in either 3200mAh or 2P10S of the 2000mAh size. We already can show that the KOK 2000 goes 450 cycles while the TP 2100 goes 38 cycles at rated C. Adam states a 5S pack for F3A and at 60 amps he quotes that is only about 1250 watts when we know an F3A has to peak at about 2700 watts and run about 1750 watts average. I question whether Adam has ever flown an F3A airplane or equipped one to test it. I have nothing against Adam, I simply don't understand his point of view or justifications.
Some conclusions at this time:
[ul][*] Thunderpower packs in the application at 2700 watts in a 3P config are drawing a peak of 75 amps or 25 amps/parallel pack. Even with cooling, the pack will reach at least 160 degrees and have a short lifespan. [*] If you run a 1P pack of KOK 3200, it will reach 160 Deg F and have a short cycle life of about 50 cycles. [*] If you run a KOK 2000 10S2P, that is about 35 amps and life cycle will be about 60 cycles.[*] If you run a TANIC pack in 2p, it will go over 175 Deg F and fry in one or two runs.[*] The KOK 3200 in 10S2P does not even warm up, delivers all that is needed in duration, and delivers by far the greatest wattage. The airplane has to be light to carry the 3.66 lb weight. [*] The best pack for 2006 will be, without doubt, the KOK 4.8 AH at 2.5 lb. It will provide everything needed and give life cycle of at least 500 cycles.
[/ul]
Further Observations:
The only reasons that ThunderPower had any success at the competition level even at top class level can be summarized as follows:
[ul][*] ThunderPower was giving away packs[*] All the competitors were converting existing IC designs which were heavy airframes which meant that no KOKAM solution could be offered due to the 5 KILO weight restriction. The ThunderPower solutions were under powered on the vertical maneuvers compared to IC machines.[*] The Patternship manufacturers know nothing about electrics or the art of building an electric airframe light enough but strong enough.[*] A world-class F3A pattern plane draws over 90 amps on the pull up vertical maneuvers with a 10S voltage.[*] At least 4Ah is needed to complete a single schedule with all likely wind conditions, 5AH is preferred for a strong finish.[*] The pilot at this level needs the pack to be stiff during the schedule flight so that there is no power fade, remember these guys at top level are watching that plane like a hawk for the smoothness of flight and when he wants power it must be there immediately. They are judged on the presence of the flight .
[/ul]
Tom nailed most of it, but I would like to hit some more points
Adam states a 5S pack for F3A and at 60 amps he quotes that is only about 1250 watts when we know an F3A has to peak at about 2700 watts and run about 1750 watts average. I question whether Adam has ever flown an F3A airplane or equipped one to test it. I have nothing against Adam, I simply don't understand his point of view or justifications.
We run 2200W peak draw which is plenty of power for F3A, that was Adam's setup. The CBA plots he has are of 5s packs as the CBA wont 1C discharge a 10s pack.
Running a pack for testing at 1C is no use at all.
The point that I seem to be failing to make is that a 1p solution will be superior
We already can show that the KOK 2000 goes 450 cycles while the TP 2100 goes 38 cycles at rated C.
Thunderpower packs in the application at 2700 watts in a 3P config are drawing a peak of 75 amps or 25 amps/parallel pack. Even with cooling, the pack will reach at least 160 degrees and have a short lifespan.
First, we dont run the packs like that, second unless you have a PhD in heat and mass transfer I seriously doubt you can conclude what the temperature of the pack will be while its flying through the air seeing turbulent flow forced convection cooling
The best pack for 2006 will be, without doubt, the KOK 4.8 AH at 2.5 lb. It will provide everything needed and give life cycle of at least 500 cycles.
ThunderPower was giving away packs
To make claims that they are giving away packs is simply absurd.
All the competitors were converting existing IC designs which were heavy airframes which meant that no KOKAM solution could be offered due to the 5 KILO weight restriction. The ThunderPower solutions were under powered on the vertical maneuvers compared to IC machines.
The Patternship manufacturers know nothing about electrics or the art of building an electric airframe light enough but strong enough.
A world-class F3A pattern plane draws over 90 amps on the pull up vertical maneuvers with a 10S voltage.
At least 4Ah is needed to complete a single schedule with all likely wind conditions, 5AH is preferred for a strong finish.
The pilot at this level needs the pack to be stiff during the schedule flight so that there is no power fade, remember these guys at top level are watching that plane like a hawk for the smoothness of flight and when he wants power it must be there immediately. They are judged on the presence of the flight .
02-20-2006, 02:56 PM
#55
RE: Battery longevity
ORIGINAL: Big Owdlad
I was the Only person in the Uk to compete at f3a in England Last year using Kokam 10s2p 3400mAh packs in my Lazulite
These packs are fully insulated (Wrapped in Inpad) with no airflow over them. After flying the P05 schedule the temperature of these packs never exceeded more than 45 Centigrade even in hot conditions.
Chad
On your posting on the GBRCAA forum you say you use an Axi 5330/24. I would welcome any Info on this set up i.e. Prop Current, etc.
Big Owdlad
ORIGINAL: can773
Fred
Quite frankly CBA and other testing is not remotely close to results myself and others see while running TP packs in F3A applications.
You can quote all the static air testing you want where those performing the tests let the temps soar to rediculously high values....its not realistic in an F3A application. Our packs see a huge amount of forced air cooling through the entire flight...I have rarely ever seen one of my packs go above 50C (122F) post flight. Testing a pack and letting it run at 180F and having a failure is not representative of real world.
Fact is the Prolites are great cells in real world applications, which is where it matters.
To the original posting at hand...my highest cycle pack is sitting about 75 cycles (TP 5300) perfect balance and the same V under load that it had as new....not noticable degredation that I can tell. I have "heard" of others running well over 100 cycles, but ExFokkerFlyer is the only one that I trust has valid #'s I think a lot of people guess at their cycles! and are way off!
If you have 4 packs of Prolites and claim 200 cycles each you would have needed to flown 800 flights since about June of 2005!
ORIGINAL: Fred Marks
To the contrary: Lots of evidence in the following threads. All these come from independent testers and modelers, not from Kokam or TP. The attached is a plot of the temperature data from the battery test data taken by a massive set of modelers who did tests with the CBA. The KOK 3200has performance superior to any RC cell as seen in the data from Wattflyer. The internal resistance is so much lower that RC Tester plots show the KOK 3200 delivering 64 amps continuously with temperature just slightly exceeding 140 deg F.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3628
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...ghlight=TESTER
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=336
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=473158
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1661
www.trextuning.com
To the contrary: Lots of evidence in the following threads. All these come from independent testers and modelers, not from Kokam or TP. The attached is a plot of the temperature data from the battery test data taken by a massive set of modelers who did tests with the CBA. The KOK 3200has performance superior to any RC cell as seen in the data from Wattflyer. The internal resistance is so much lower that RC Tester plots show the KOK 3200 delivering 64 amps continuously with temperature just slightly exceeding 140 deg F.
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3628
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...ghlight=TESTER
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=336
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=473158
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1661
www.trextuning.com
Quite frankly CBA and other testing is not remotely close to results myself and others see while running TP packs in F3A applications.
You can quote all the static air testing you want where those performing the tests let the temps soar to rediculously high values....its not realistic in an F3A application. Our packs see a huge amount of forced air cooling through the entire flight...I have rarely ever seen one of my packs go above 50C (122F) post flight. Testing a pack and letting it run at 180F and having a failure is not representative of real world.
Fact is the Prolites are great cells in real world applications, which is where it matters.
To the original posting at hand...my highest cycle pack is sitting about 75 cycles (TP 5300) perfect balance and the same V under load that it had as new....not noticable degredation that I can tell. I have "heard" of others running well over 100 cycles, but ExFokkerFlyer is the only one that I trust has valid #'s
I think a lot of people guess at their cycles! and are way off!If you have 4 packs of Prolites and claim 200 cycles each you would have needed to flown 800 flights since about June of 2005!
These packs are fully insulated (Wrapped in Inpad) with no airflow over them. After flying the P05 schedule the temperature of these packs never exceeded more than 45 Centigrade even in hot conditions.
Chad
On your posting on the GBRCAA forum you say you use an Axi 5330/24. I would welcome any Info on this set up i.e. Prop Current, etc.
Big Owdlad
Can you direct me to that post? I have never used an Axi, only Plettenbergs?
02-20-2006, 03:05 PM
#56
RE: Battery longevity
ORIGINAL: Fred Marks
You stand corrected. What happens, worst case, on 1 or 3 cell is readily translatable to 10S since the cell is run with no cooling. In the 10S case, the cells are enclosed in heat shrink, so inner cells receive no cooling.
You stand corrected. What happens, worst case, on 1 or 3 cell is readily translatable to 10S since the cell is run with no cooling. In the 10S case, the cells are enclosed in heat shrink, so inner cells receive no cooling.
Just because they see no "airflow" does not mean they are not being cooled.....this information is any heat transfer text.
To see some effect I did the following.....
I had packs seperated by 3/8" spacing (x2 5s 5300 packs, big sides facing each other, so basically the large flat sides of the cells).....flew a lot and measured the face temperature of the pack in this gap. The cells in this gap were only typically 1C higher than the cells fully exposed to the airflow (giving me confidence that boundry layer formation in the gap was not seriously affecting the airflow for cooling in this space).
Joined the packs together and flew a lot of flights again, after the flights opening the packs and measuring the face temperture. A whopping (get ready!) 3-5C increase over the exposed outer cell temperatures. So for a net change of 1-4C increase.
02-20-2006, 03:06 PM
#57
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RE: Battery longevity
[quote]ORIGINAL: ExFokkerFlyer
A world-class F3A pattern plane draws over 90 amps on the pull up vertical maneuvers with a 10S voltage.
Correct
Absolutely false! Again Greg, where are you getting this information??? My Focus, RIP, with a AXI 5330/F3A and TP 6000 batteries in a 10S would climb out of sight vertically at about 40 amps!!! My wot current draw with the 20x13 prop was about 65 amps... I would fly the verticals in the sequence at roughly 60-70% stick... when you take into consideration the throttle curve... my draw was around 40 amps for most verticals... never any more unless I was showing off. In fact, I test flew another Focus a couple weeks ago. The power was outragous and the verticals (accellerating go up mind you) were done at less than half stick WITH a curve. Actual power was probably a bit less than 40 amps as the plane was lighter than mine.
I don't believe you give me more relevant information to substantiate this claim
Big owdlad (F3a English team member)
A world-class F3A pattern plane draws over 90 amps on the pull up vertical maneuvers with a 10S voltage.
Correct
Absolutely false! Again Greg, where are you getting this information??? My Focus, RIP, with a AXI 5330/F3A and TP 6000 batteries in a 10S would climb out of sight vertically at about 40 amps!!! My wot current draw with the 20x13 prop was about 65 amps... I would fly the verticals in the sequence at roughly 60-70% stick... when you take into consideration the throttle curve... my draw was around 40 amps for most verticals... never any more unless I was showing off. In fact, I test flew another Focus a couple weeks ago. The power was outragous and the verticals (accellerating go up mind you) were done at less than half stick WITH a curve. Actual power was probably a bit less than 40 amps as the plane was lighter than mine.
I don't believe you give me more relevant information to substantiate this claim
Big owdlad (F3a English team member)
02-20-2006, 03:13 PM
#59
RE: Battery longevity
ORIGINAL: Big Owdlad
Sorry Chad
GBRCAA.ORG :: View topic - High end ARFS
Ive got your name mixed up
Sam
Sorry Chad
GBRCAA.ORG :: View topic - High end ARFS
Ive got your name mixed up
Sam
I was hoping that I have not secretly been running Axi's in my sleep!!!!Tom on here is probably one of the best Axi experts....I think he has ran just about all of them.
PS: Tom, the new Plett is being ran as we type
Hope to have some numbers in a few days Maybe I will convert you back lol
02-20-2006, 03:20 PM
#60
RE: Battery longevity
If you come out to California I'll let you fly my plane and we can throw a wattmeter on it to confirm my findings.
With the last two planes I had, I would run up the motor static and note the current draw from the wattmeter. I have posted my numbers here and there, and if you look on the AXI threads you can find them. Anyway, with the Focus I had to run expo on the throttle, my radio did not have a throttle curve function. The actual percentage of 'throttle' at 3/4 stick is close to 50%. So, at that setting I am really asking for just 50% of my available power. My WOT current draw with the last prop I used was 85 amps. So asking for 50% power equates to roughly 42 amps. Now, I did test this static as well and found that with a linear throttle, the current draw per the wattmeter was pretty linear as well. Half stick with no curve was repeatably 40-44%. It did vary a few amps here and there, but for the most part it was close.
My father's Focus with a 5330/18 (where mine had the F3A) required a HUGE curve to make it flyable. We had it propped to about 75 amps (lost the actual numbers but it's close) with a 20x13 and in the verticals I never went above half stick, and that's with the huge curve. It's really too much motor and he may get an F3A for his birthday! Either that or a much smaller prop.
I honestly don't know how to make you believe me, but I certainly have posted enough results of my finding for you to make an assessement as to whether I'm full of hot air or not. But this is really what I'm getting.
With the last two planes I had, I would run up the motor static and note the current draw from the wattmeter. I have posted my numbers here and there, and if you look on the AXI threads you can find them. Anyway, with the Focus I had to run expo on the throttle, my radio did not have a throttle curve function. The actual percentage of 'throttle' at 3/4 stick is close to 50%. So, at that setting I am really asking for just 50% of my available power. My WOT current draw with the last prop I used was 85 amps. So asking for 50% power equates to roughly 42 amps. Now, I did test this static as well and found that with a linear throttle, the current draw per the wattmeter was pretty linear as well. Half stick with no curve was repeatably 40-44%. It did vary a few amps here and there, but for the most part it was close.
My father's Focus with a 5330/18 (where mine had the F3A) required a HUGE curve to make it flyable. We had it propped to about 75 amps (lost the actual numbers but it's close) with a 20x13 and in the verticals I never went above half stick, and that's with the huge curve. It's really too much motor and he may get an F3A for his birthday! Either that or a much smaller prop.
I honestly don't know how to make you believe me, but I certainly have posted enough results of my finding for you to make an assessement as to whether I'm full of hot air or not. But this is really what I'm getting.
02-20-2006, 03:25 PM
#61
RE: Battery longevity
Chad,
I'd love to hear the numbers on the new Plett. They certainly are smooth running motors, I'll give you that. Absolutely silent in the air. Not sure you'll have much luck on converting me back... pretty happy with the set up I have. But, you could always send me one to try out! lol Any word on their availability?
I'm no expert really, just have a lot of time on them. I haven't run a /24 yet, but I've got about 60 flights with the two /F3As that I have plus flying the /18 in a few planes.
I'd love to hear the numbers on the new Plett. They certainly are smooth running motors, I'll give you that. Absolutely silent in the air. Not sure you'll have much luck on converting me back... pretty happy with the set up I have. But, you could always send me one to try out! lol Any word on their availability?
I'm no expert really, just have a lot of time on them. I haven't run a /24 yet, but I've got about 60 flights with the two /F3As that I have plus flying the /18 in a few planes.
02-20-2006, 03:30 PM
#62
RE: Battery longevity
I should add that in the above example of my results, that was with the 22x12 prop. The 20x13 performance that i quoted a few posts before it still valid though. When comparing the two configurations, I had to use slightly more 'stick' with the 20x13 to get the same vertical that the 22x12 gave me, but the amperage values are still about the same.
02-20-2006, 03:37 PM
#63
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RE: Battery longevity
Gentlemen
Last year I competed with the following set up, thats until I had my model destroyed in the pits by a freak accident!!!
Model. Lazulite
Motor. AXI5330/18
Esc. Jeti 90 (Jeti Opto77 was found to be inadequate)
Prop. Carbon Engel 20x12(Static 7800rpm @ 90amp)
Batteries. EpKokam3200 10s2p (6400mAh) Paid for (not Sponsored)
Weight. 4.95kg
On average the Lazulite consumed around 4000mAh per F05 schedule
The power in this set up was far more superior than my YS160Dz powered Smaragd
Sam
Last year I competed with the following set up, thats until I had my model destroyed in the pits by a freak accident!!!
Model. Lazulite
Motor. AXI5330/18
Esc. Jeti 90 (Jeti Opto77 was found to be inadequate)
Prop. Carbon Engel 20x12(Static 7800rpm @ 90amp)
Batteries. EpKokam3200 10s2p (6400mAh) Paid for (not Sponsored)
Weight. 4.95kg
On average the Lazulite consumed around 4000mAh per F05 schedule
The power in this set up was far more superior than my YS160Dz powered Smaragd
Sam
02-20-2006, 03:54 PM
#64
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RE: Battery longevity
Glad you cleared that up Sam my first thought was 3400 is to close to usage, would make for short life but 6400 is a whole different thing.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Steve Maxwell
Thanks for clearing that up.
Steve Maxwell
ORIGINAL: Big Owdlad
Gentlemen
Last year I competed with the following set up, thats until I had my model destroyed in the pits by a freak accident!!!
Model. Lazulite
Motor. AXI5330/18
Esc. Jeti 90 (Jeti Opto77 was found to be inadequate)
Prop. Carbon Engel 20x12(Static 7800rpm @ 90amp)
Batteries. EpKokam3200 10s2p (6400mAh) Paid for (not Sponsored)
Weight. 4.95kg
On average the Lazulite consumed around 4000mAh per F05 schedule
The power in this set up was far more superior than my YS160Dz powered Smaragd
Sam
Gentlemen
Last year I competed with the following set up, thats until I had my model destroyed in the pits by a freak accident!!!
Model. Lazulite
Motor. AXI5330/18
Esc. Jeti 90 (Jeti Opto77 was found to be inadequate)
Prop. Carbon Engel 20x12(Static 7800rpm @ 90amp)
Batteries. EpKokam3200 10s2p (6400mAh) Paid for (not Sponsored)
Weight. 4.95kg
On average the Lazulite consumed around 4000mAh per F05 schedule
The power in this set up was far more superior than my YS160Dz powered Smaragd
Sam
02-20-2006, 04:09 PM
#65
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RE: Battery longevity
Greg and Fred, first I would like to say that I loved having Ace products to build my own transmitters, receivers, cycles, and chargers all as I remember worked perfect. But at a time the trans had to go because of better equitment that came out for pattern, PCM, expo.
My feel on this thread is loan Tom a set of 10s so he can compare back to back. He's not a big name pilot (sorry Tom) just a guy that has made electric power work for him.
There are other packs coming that meet pattern requirements Falcon for one, the TP packs were here for pattern when there really wasn't anything else and they proved that they worked, and worked very well, the 6000 3p and better yet the 4p 5300. Way to many using these with good luck to argue. Most paying for them out of pocket very few sponsored.
Steve Maxwell
My feel on this thread is loan Tom a set of 10s so he can compare back to back. He's not a big name pilot (sorry Tom) just a guy that has made electric power work for him.
There are other packs coming that meet pattern requirements Falcon for one, the TP packs were here for pattern when there really wasn't anything else and they proved that they worked, and worked very well, the 6000 3p and better yet the 4p 5300. Way to many using these with good luck to argue. Most paying for them out of pocket very few sponsored.
Steve Maxwell
02-20-2006, 05:00 PM
#66
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RE: Battery longevity
Talking about max amps used in flight has anyone tried a flight with the Wattsup meter or equivalent that will keep peak amps. at only 2.5 oz wouldn't hurt #'s and could disspell some of the issues.
Steve Maxwell
Steve Maxwell
02-20-2006, 05:02 PM
#67
RE: Battery longevity
ORIGINAL: patternrules
Talking about max amps used in flight has anyone tried a flight with the Wattsup meter or equivalent that will keep peak amps. at only 2.5 oz wouldn't hurt #'s and could disspell some of the issues.
Steve Maxwell
Talking about max amps used in flight has anyone tried a flight with the Wattsup meter or equivalent that will keep peak amps. at only 2.5 oz wouldn't hurt #'s and could disspell some of the issues.
Steve Maxwell
Full throttle static to full throttle in flight was very similar, maybe 5A-7A less.
02-21-2006, 04:10 AM
#68
RE: Battery longevity
Sam (Owdlad),
In case you have forgotten you were not the only person competing in F3A iwith an electric model in England last year. Both Steve Burgess and I flew with our Hacker, Flightpower setups in both GBRCAA comps and in the Home International Champs. We also competed in every Scottish F3A contest.
Your Lazulite was impressive, especially in that the battery was cool after a flight BUT I still believe my Hacker setup had it beat in terms of ultimate performance and that was using last years Flightpower Pro 10s3p 6300 mAhr cells which were acknowledged to have poorer voltage stability under load than any of the current best cells. I was pulling 74A on 21 x 14 APCE but can't tell you the voltage and as you know the performance was excellent.
I am about to change to Thunderpower cells to enjoy the weight saving and better voltage stability in a new model but the existing setup was more than competitive. I must also state that I have bought every piece of modelling equipment I have ever used including my batteries.
For the record Sam you really should declare that you are a Kokam sponsored pilot. I'm not suggesting that you would allow this to interfere with the excellent input that you put into this, the GBRCAA and other forums but at least let people have all the facts.
Kind regards
Malcolm Harris
In case you have forgotten you were not the only person competing in F3A iwith an electric model in England last year. Both Steve Burgess and I flew with our Hacker, Flightpower setups in both GBRCAA comps and in the Home International Champs. We also competed in every Scottish F3A contest.
Your Lazulite was impressive, especially in that the battery was cool after a flight BUT I still believe my Hacker setup had it beat in terms of ultimate performance and that was using last years Flightpower Pro 10s3p 6300 mAhr cells which were acknowledged to have poorer voltage stability under load than any of the current best cells. I was pulling 74A on 21 x 14 APCE but can't tell you the voltage and as you know the performance was excellent.
I am about to change to Thunderpower cells to enjoy the weight saving and better voltage stability in a new model but the existing setup was more than competitive. I must also state that I have bought every piece of modelling equipment I have ever used including my batteries.
For the record Sam you really should declare that you are a Kokam sponsored pilot. I'm not suggesting that you would allow this to interfere with the excellent input that you put into this, the GBRCAA and other forums but at least let people have all the facts.
Kind regards
Malcolm Harris
02-21-2006, 04:46 PM
#69
RE: Battery longevity
ORIGINAL: Malcolm H
Sam (Owdlad),
In case you have forgotten you were not the only person competing in F3A iwith an electric model in England last year. Both Steve Burgess and I flew with our Hacker, Flightpower setups in both GBRCAA comps and in the Home International Champs. We also competed in every Scottish F3A contest.
Your Lazulite was impressive, especially in that the battery was cool after a flight BUT I still believe my Hacker setup had it beat in terms of ultimate performance and that was using last years Flightpower Pro 10s3p 6300 mAhr cells which were acknowledged to have poorer voltage stability under load than any of the current best cells. I was pulling 74A on 21 x 14 APCE but can't tell you the voltage and as you know the performance was excellent.
I am about to change to Thunderpower cells to enjoy the weight saving and better voltage stability in a new model but the existing setup was more than competitive. I must also state that I have bought every piece of modelling equipment I have ever used including my batteries.
For the record Sam you really should declare that you are a Kokam sponsored pilot. I'm not suggesting that you would allow this to interfere with the excellent input that you put into this, the GBRCAA and other forums but at least let people have all the facts.
Kind regards
Malcolm Harris
Sam (Owdlad),
In case you have forgotten you were not the only person competing in F3A iwith an electric model in England last year. Both Steve Burgess and I flew with our Hacker, Flightpower setups in both GBRCAA comps and in the Home International Champs. We also competed in every Scottish F3A contest.
Your Lazulite was impressive, especially in that the battery was cool after a flight BUT I still believe my Hacker setup had it beat in terms of ultimate performance and that was using last years Flightpower Pro 10s3p 6300 mAhr cells which were acknowledged to have poorer voltage stability under load than any of the current best cells. I was pulling 74A on 21 x 14 APCE but can't tell you the voltage and as you know the performance was excellent.
I am about to change to Thunderpower cells to enjoy the weight saving and better voltage stability in a new model but the existing setup was more than competitive. I must also state that I have bought every piece of modelling equipment I have ever used including my batteries.
For the record Sam you really should declare that you are a Kokam sponsored pilot. I'm not suggesting that you would allow this to interfere with the excellent input that you put into this, the GBRCAA and other forums but at least let people have all the facts.
Kind regards
Malcolm Harris
What kind of RPM are you turning with the 21x14?
02-22-2006, 01:29 AM
#70
RE: Battery longevity
He's not a big name pilot (sorry Tom) just a guy that has made electric power work for him.
No problem Steve you are right, I don't have a big name... in fact, I don't have a 'name' at all in this arena, so I don't think I should be on the list for testing FMA products. My honest advice is for them to go with somebody they know, or can get to know, who does have some sort of name recognition. Not only that, but somebody who is willing to put in the time and give them some honest feedback and good data. It could very well be that the Kokam batteries are the best kept secret... but if you don't have a name, who is going to listen to you?I have been on here touting AXI motors and how much power they have, and how little they cost etc... (and I paid for all mine, small discount that covered shipping costs but very much appreciated) and seriously, how many guys out there have tried them or switched over? Not many... and that's okay, you'll all learn!
Now, if somebody who competed in the FAI or even Masters finals at the Nats last year came out and said the same thing... wouldn't it sink in just a little deeper?
And again that's okay... I plan on working my way up the ranks, but if I never make the FAI finals at the Nats that will be okay too... I am in this for fun and comraderie this time, and it's made all the difference.
Now back to the subject at hand. I don't totally disagree with some of Gregs assertions... Thunderpower batteries may very well be overrated... but if you don't have a feasible solution that's competitive, how can anybody make the switch? Come out with at LEAST 4500 mah but preferably 5000 mah(ish) at or below 40 ounces, and you just might corner the market if the cells are as good as you say they are. Bashing Thunderpower without a viable alternative is just not professional. Especially since the majority of us are using them in the real world and, AND they have proven to be extremely reliable in almost all circumstances. And I'm talking about pattern here, not park flyers... I know of a few cases where packs have failed early, but TP has stood behind them and either replaced the pack, or given a huge discount.
In the case of pattern when we have power, weight, and reliability requirements that exceed those of most sport flyers... battery manufacturers have to come to US and show us what they have... we make a sizable investment when we buy our batteries, and we need more to go on than just 'lab results'... we need people in the field giving us actual numbers of cycles, current draw, temperatures after a flight etc... we need our peers, using your products to give us the formula for success.
If you cruise the old threads here on RCU and look at TonyF's thread on the Partner you'll see what I mean. He published his successes and failures and gave all a recipe for success. How many of those who are flying electric have copied his system? The majority I think...
FMA, FlightPower, Thunderpower, Apogee... whoever... show us what your products can do in competition and at the practice field... and you just might earn our business. Until then, it's all theoretical.
But then again, I could be wrong...
Tom
02-22-2006, 03:42 AM
#71
RE: Battery longevity
Chad,
I'm turning the 21 x 14 at 5900-6000 rpm. Incidentally I have the new Plett on order. When you say the new Plett is being run - do you mean by you or the factory?
Regards
Malcolm
I'm turning the 21 x 14 at 5900-6000 rpm. Incidentally I have the new Plett on order. When you say the new Plett is being run - do you mean by you or the factory?
Regards
Malcolm
02-22-2006, 08:18 AM
#72
RE: Battery longevity
I think Tom said it as well as it can be said. I will be building a 2 M electric shortly and I will wait to the last minute for battery purchase. Right now it looks like TP 5300. The olnly reason is because they seem to have the best track record at present. I am waiting as I am hoping a new and better alternative will be out before I have to buy them. I have posted before that I do not think we are really "there" yet with regards to a battery meeting our requirements. With the currewnt crop of cells either longivity needs to go up or price needs to come way down.
I did take a look at the Kokam web site directly. kokam.com They do have information on a 4800 mah cell that appears to be rated at 20C. Looks like it might fill the bill if their product info is correct.
http://kokam.com/product/product_pdf...0mAh_Grade.pdf
10 of these cells would weigh about 40.5 oz. I guess a pack (or 2 5S's) will be a bit heavier with wiring, wrapping etc. If their advertising of cycle life of > 500 cycles was a reality at the discharge rates that we use then I would suspect that they would take over market share in the pattern community. Tom is right however that most of us would need to see a track record or a guarantee of so many cycles before spending that much money on an untested product.
Stuart C.
I did take a look at the Kokam web site directly. kokam.com They do have information on a 4800 mah cell that appears to be rated at 20C. Looks like it might fill the bill if their product info is correct.
http://kokam.com/product/product_pdf...0mAh_Grade.pdf
10 of these cells would weigh about 40.5 oz. I guess a pack (or 2 5S's) will be a bit heavier with wiring, wrapping etc. If their advertising of cycle life of > 500 cycles was a reality at the discharge rates that we use then I would suspect that they would take over market share in the pattern community. Tom is right however that most of us would need to see a track record or a guarantee of so many cycles before spending that much money on an untested product.
Stuart C.
02-22-2006, 08:19 AM
#73
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RE: Battery longevity
Tom the reason I said you for testing is you have been very honest in every respect on your findings, and I think it would be nice to see someone thats not top 10 in the world get a break.
Maybe because I fit into that same category, shoot I'd have to sign a pack with the devil to get on a world team and then it would probably be Vatican City(smallest country in the world .2 sq. mile) and don't think the devil or the pope would go for that. LOL
Steve Maxwell
Maybe because I fit into that same category, shoot I'd have to sign a pack with the devil to get on a world team and then it would probably be Vatican City(smallest country in the world .2 sq. mile) and don't think the devil or the pope would go for that. LOL
Steve Maxwell
02-22-2006, 08:30 AM
#74
RE: Battery longevity
ORIGINAL: Malcolm H
Chad,
I'm turning the 21 x 14 at 5900-6000 rpm. Incidentally I have the new Plett on order. When you say the new Plett is being run - do you mean by you or the factory?
Regards
Malcolm
Chad,
I'm turning the 21 x 14 at 5900-6000 rpm. Incidentally I have the new Plett on order. When you say the new Plett is being run - do you mean by you or the factory?
Regards
Malcolm
I got an email from the factory saying they are running it
So hopefully it goes well and they start production of them soon! I just got a 21x14, I really like it, I think its even better than the 21x13W overall...but very close. Anyways I am spinning it on the current 30-10 at 5500@61A and it still has really good power. As its the same draw as the 21x13W (strange) I hope it will be of use on the new 30-10 as well.
02-22-2006, 10:11 AM
#75
RE: Battery longevity
I used the 21 x 14 for most of last season and preferred it to the 22 x 12 as it gives airspeed closer to what I was used to with IC power. I had a couple of flights with the 21 x 13W but thought I detected some strange gyroscopic funnies which I didn't have time in mid season to evaluate.
If as I hope the new Plett gives performance equal or better than my Hacker I suspect that the 21 x 14 might give too high an airspeed in P07.
Malcolm
If as I hope the new Plett gives performance equal or better than my Hacker I suspect that the 21 x 14 might give too high an airspeed in P07.
Malcolm