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E powered Black Magic VF3

Old 03-30-2009, 12:51 PM
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AmericanSpectre505
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Default E powered Black Magic VF3

For those of you who are flying them electric, whats the scoop before I go this direction? Set-up's, equipment used, reccomendations, flying weights and overall performance.



Thanks in Advance!


Bill Holsten

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Old 03-30-2009, 01:11 PM
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jumper666
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Default RE: E powered Black Magic VF3

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6156814/tm.htm
Old 03-30-2009, 01:22 PM
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AmericanSpectre505
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Default RE: E powered Black Magic VF3

Thanks for the link,..looking for data and info on people actully flying them currently or have flown them for a good period of time. We have one in our Dist. I have not flown it and probably will never get to.

So,...keep'em roll'in in here.


Bill Holsten

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Old 03-31-2009, 10:13 AM
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Default RE: E powered Black Magic VF3

Welp I can tell you what I know so far....

Lots of different power systems have been tried, and most of them work well. What you DO need is a light airframe and a lot of pitch on the prop.

As for flying weights, it's more dependant on the batteries/motor/etc than the weight of the airframe. I've seen them right at 11 lbs and as low as 10 lbs and 2 ozs. And everywhere in between. I only personally know of 2 that were overweight, and they weren't by a lot at all. And that was with a 22 oz outrunner and relatively large heavy packs. One change anywhere and they were fine.

One note to add is the plane is desinged to have the weight of an AXI (22oz or thereabouts) on the nose, with 3 lb packs in the forward section. If you use a Hacker inrunner and small TP pro lites you may have a balance issue...so be aware.

One bullet proof set up I've seen is the Axi 5530 F3A, CC HV85 speed control (probably the best out there IMHO), and 2-5S4500+ packs, 20C or so. 20x14 prop (or close to it). Uses about 3500 mah for a full flight of masters, slightly more in a high wind, like 3800 if you're running high pitch and in the power strong a lot. That's why I say 4500+....

We've also had great success with the HXT 63-64B outrunner, as well as the large Dualsky 12T. I know there have been others used, but I don't have first hand experience with them. One note about the HXT, this is NOT the Turnigy motor, it's the slightly older HXT motor. The numbers were almost identical to the AXi and it lasted well over 150 flights until the plane was totalled. I don't endorse them per se, I just had good luck with one. Customer service is non existant so be aware. but for $50 it was worth a try, and it worked well.

A note about the VF3 and props: I'll say it again, you want PITCH. if you run a 22x12 this plane will back up in a downline, I mean it's comical. But when the wind comes you'll hate life. Personally I like the higher pitch and just use the throttle stick better.

Performance: well, you've already seen it for yourself first hand. It's as good as anything else in the world. And better than most. Yeah I'm biased, but I have eyes too [8D]

The biggest thing you have to be aware of, is this plane is big and draggy. A well managed YS powered VF3 presents just as well as an electric, in all but the absolute calmest conditions. But what that tranlates to is forward speed...hence pitch again. The more pitch, the more airflow over the plane, and the more stable it is in ANY condition. Just don't look for Curare type speed, cuz it ain't happenin.....

Guess that's a good place to start, I'd love to hear from more people out there myself.

-Mike
Old 03-31-2009, 11:13 AM
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Default RE: E powered Black Magic VF3

I have probably only 50-60 flights on my V3, maybe a little more as I don't keep track of those things anymore. Right now it has an AXI 5330/F3A, but I did use the HXT motors that Mike is talking about for 95% of the flights. The first one worked fine until I landed a bit hard (gusty day, too slow, my fault... but it really was not hard at all, barely put a scrape on the prop) and put the motor all out of whack. Replaced the bearings once on that motor, flew fine for three flights until problems crept up again. Said, forget about it, and put another motor on (like Mike said, only $50) and that worked fine for TWO flights until I could feel the bearings go bad... motor still ran, but I could feel it. Now I have the AXI in it.

Using a Jeti 90, not a Spin (used to be a dealer, never got one of those to run, sent them all back... I had the first batch and I understand they work well now though) and HXT 4100 batteries. Great combo, plenty for P-09, use maybe 32-3500 mah... usually on the low side of that. No mixing at all in the plane, straight forward set up. Weight is right at 11 lbs., if I were to go someplace where they were going to weigh the plane I'd turn around and go home... BUT if I wanted it to be weighed, then it would likely be .5 ounces under and if I was really concerned about it I could lose another ounce or so by changing a servo or two.

I have to disagree somewhat with the "ease" of getting the model below 11 lbs that Mike touts (no offense Mike). He's obviously a very gifted builder, but there are some things to be careful of when building this thing up for electric if you are concerned about weight (I'm not anymore, couldn't give two fart-noodles about it ). My father built this plane before he passed and he was a good builder, better than average, but not show quality. This plane came out a little heavier than where we thought it would. I think the choice in glue (hysol) for some joints accounted for this increase... but seriously if you look inside this thing it does not look "heavy" so I'm not sure. The wings came out to 14 oz I think, and I could lose 1.5 ounces if I wanted to by changing servos. I think that there are parts of the fuse aft of the leading edge of the wing that could be built lighter if I was to do another one (for EP only though).

I think another factor is that this was the first Black Magic we had ever seen, if we had the opportunity to poke around somebody else's plane during the build, then we might have been able to shed some ounces by seeing other ways of doing things. Building this plane in a vacuum and assuming that it's just going to be light could lead to a heavier plane if you aren't careful. It's not hard, and 11 lbs is easily doable, but I really can see how you can get more than that if you don't pay attention.

On the other hand, I would beef up the nose a bit on the next one. It was built stock, with all the little pieces parts, and the firewall would flex with the motor/prop attached. Not a lot mind you, it wasn't flimsy, but it was too much. We reinforced it some, and I think it still needs some more honestly when you consider how much leverage that motor has when mounted on a Esprit-type mount. I think that all that would need to be done is to build the firewall out of the same material, just no holes through it, and just duct the air around it for cooling.

With the motor issues I have had, I had thought about trying a Plett Evo. Besides the cost (can you believe what they get for those things?) what stopped me was the lighter weight. I have this plane balanced exactly where I want it. Any shift will mess it up for me, as it is I have the batteries all the way forward (well maybe 1" left of movement left) and with a lighter motor I would have to re-think the placement of everything to get it to balance. If you built the plane up to use a lighter motor you would be able to do it, but the plane is suited for the heavier motors.

With that criticism, let me say this, it really is a phenomenal design. Prop the plane for 13" of pitch minimum, let it fly fast, and it just grooves. I'm torn between the 20x13 and the 20.5x14 myself, but the 13 is on the plane now and the speed is perfect. I don't have proportional brake for the ESC, and with this plane/motor/prop combo it's not needed. I have never flown a more honest or neutral plane, and with a simple electric set up on this one... you can't help but be better. It takes out all the equipment issues, plane issues away, and now it's all your fault if you don't do well. I have owned and flown a bunch of different planes... dozens over the years... and this is by far the best. I just would do things different on the next one... not necessarily different than Mike, just different than we did.

Tom


Old 03-31-2009, 08:20 PM
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Default RE: E powered Black Magic VF3

Thanks for the info Mike and Tom,.....good stuff and informational.
Old 03-31-2009, 09:50 PM
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Default RE: E powered Black Magic VF3

Bill ... if you gonna get a nice plane then get nice motors too. I would say stay clear of those big China made motors. Something that is good but cost effective is the Hyperion 5025-22 ... that works great in a few F3A planes I have seen.
Old 04-01-2009, 07:43 AM
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Default RE: E powered Black Magic VF3

tiANci,

I had a chance at out contest this past weekend to see that Hyperion motor in a Temptation. It's a nice looking motor and seems to have lot's of power (It did not fly just run up's on the ground). I am going to stay with the AXI motor for now knowing it's a slightly heavier setup.

Looks like after the LIPO post I will abandon the electric idea altogether,..unless some alternatives battery sources appear?


Bill Holsten

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Old 04-01-2009, 08:44 AM
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Default RE: E powered Black Magic VF3

My pal is a F3A fan like you, he is now into EP. He used the Hacker and all but he finds that the Hyperion is worth it. Power & price ... basically, value for money. Lipo at the moment has the highest energy density, with EP F3A you are always at the edge of the weight limits. What else do you wanna use? Heheheheee ...
Old 04-01-2009, 08:49 AM
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Default RE: E powered Black Magic VF3

We can only stand by and watch at the moment on the LIPO issue,...I looked at the Hyperion and have considered it,....I want a bullet proof system as much as possible anyway.


Bill Holsten

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Old 04-01-2009, 08:58 AM
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Default RE: E powered Black Magic VF3

Bill it may be a hoax... April fools joke.
Old 04-01-2009, 09:58 AM
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Default RE: E powered Black Magic VF3

LOL the lipo thing is an April fool's joke guys, relax

Tom, thanks for the honest appraisal. You'd be suprised how rare it is that I hear constructive criticism on the nuts and bolts of it all. I know how the plane flies, but it's hard to guage how "easy" something is with a zillion model airplane builds under my belt. Easy to me is not always easy to someone else. I don't think I'm gifted at all, but I do have a good bit of experience and I am pretty picky about certain things. I share everything I can remember, or try at least. I got some good feedback on the V2 and applied it to the VF3, and the results are pretty amazing to me. I have been listening and taking notes over the last couple of years on this plane, and will apply it to my next plane. I am aware of the firewall flex....but oddly enough I can't get mine here to flex at all, and can't seem to find the common denominator. I could just make it out of 1/4" AC ply and be done with it...that wouldn't flex, but it's about a 1 ounce penalty. I dunno, I'm working on it though.

Back to the HXT for a second....you get what you pay for usually. I don't buy into the $1200 Hacker set up myself, but an AXI is usually hard to beat. Although there are some who have had the same problems with the AXI as others have had with the HXT. And the HXT we had worked flawlessly, but then again it never suffered any damage until the final flight. I know it went about 150, who knows if it would have gone further? or exploded the can and took out the whole front end? It's interesting as a test subject, hence why I don't endorse it. Although you can get 3-4 for the cost of an AXI, at least AXI has customer service if you need it. It's a dice roll for sure. That's why for our full house competition planes, it's AXI gold.

Thanks again for the kudos on the design, it's a labor of love but worth every penny and second to me. I've been working on the successor in my spare time so hearing positive AND negative feedback is valuable. I don't know how much I want to change the way it flies, because it does everything I want already. But if I can make it better in the construction department, that's golden. I already have a few ideas on a few parts that even give me a headache (like the canopy and forward section, and the tail blocks). The electric nose section has always been my El Guapo. I've done it 6 different ways to date. In the end I have (so far) settled on 2...the esprit mounted on a solid firewall and a box type mount. I haven't been able to spend much time around the box mount as the only ones I built that way went to someone who hasn't really said anything since then....oh well.

On the electrics as well I am always trying to decide what can go away. These things will shock you as far as what DOESN'T need to be there. I have been unfortunate enough to examine a couple of totalled planes, so I know what survived a straight in impact. And what was always a PITA (gear block and electric front end). I will say this, if you build the center wing tube section as designed, it will survive a nuclear blast....

Oh and a quick word about glue, because that's a point that keeps coming up. I try to post what I use and how, but it seems to get lost somewhere...but I only use west systems epoxy on the sheeting surfaces (15 grams per wing skin, 30 grams for the ENTIRE tail section all together). I use polyurethane glue (elmers ultimate) on the turtle deck skins....but squeegeed off and then dry rolled until it is only barely damp...I mean like scary...and it holds great. I also use only polyurethane on the false ribs, root ribs, all capping, tube sockets etc....but again it's VERY dry looking by most standards. I think the only way to convey this is with high res video. On the fuse, I only use epoxy for the firewall, gear plate and gear doubler, and the wing/stab sockets. I attach the cores (except the fin) with polyurethane glue as well. Everything else is CA.

The rest comes down to balsa selection really, even (especially) the blocks and capping. The sheeting part is crucial, but the capping and blocks can make a huge difference, in the range of 10 ounces or more. I probably throw away more balsa than most people use in thier lifetime LOL

But just wanted to take the opportunity to share a little and thank you guys for the feedback. Please keep it coming, Black Magic guys are too quiet (outside the "posse" that is).

Thanks again,
-Mike
Old 04-01-2009, 08:01 PM
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Default RE: E powered Black Magic VF3

ORIGINAL: MHester

I haven't been able to spend much time around the box mount as the only ones I built that way went to someone who hasn't really said anything since then....oh well.

That would be me.... Haven't started to build the model yet but it will happen this year. Of late it seems that just when you're ready to start something else comes up... The box mount looks like a good solution though. Unsure if it's lighter than standoffs or an Espirit type mount.

Cheers
Jason.
Old 04-01-2009, 09:13 PM
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Default RE: E powered Black Magic VF3

I know but it was fun going along with it,.......my wife reminded me of that this morning,............lol!

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