amram

Hello to all "Clean hands" Electo F3A pilot,
I am interested to learn which chargers and balancers are there in order to charge and maintain 8S and 10S LiPO packes for F3A Applications.
Note: I am not looking for most economic package. I am more after reliability, safety and best performance...

Thank in advanced to all repliers

Amram Leshed
F3A Israel

najary

Hi Amram,

Buy this one:
http://www.revolectrix.com/10s_charger.htm

Best regards,

Isaac Najary

hezik

Don't buy that one.. it only has 250 Watts, so at 10s your charge current will be limited to about 6A.

If money is not an issue, you should be looking to lots of power.. most modern 10s packs can be charged at at least 2C.

This is the charger I'm using (one of it's predecessors with the same stats) and it's a a really good charger:

http://hyperion-world.com/products/p...P-EOS0615iDUO3

This has 360 Watss of charging power, which translates to about 9A charging current, so it's still not ideal. However these chargers are very robust, you can't mess them up, whatever you connect wrong, it doesn't create smoke.

If you're more confident in your own way of hooking up stuff, you can go for this one:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...dProduct=11597

1000 Watss of charging power. I have seen more iChargers and they all work well, but if you were, for instance, connect the battery leads wrong, it's a goner. So it has insane charging power, but is less robust.

Both the Hyperion charger as the iCharger can handle higher input voltages, in fact, the iCharger needs a higher input voltage (higher than 12v) in order to reach the 1000 Watts.

So with a charger alone you're not done. You also need a power supply. If buying this iCharger or the Hyperion, i'd recommend a 24v power supply, 25A for the Hyperion, 50A for the iCharger.

With the iCharger you'll be able to charge packs at 25A, which is 5C for a 5000mAh lipo. Please note that not all lipo's allow 5c charging rates.

I'm afraid this thread is not going to do you any good. People tend to just post the charger they have, without any real basis why it would be better suited to your needs than any other charger. You'll end up with 2 or 3 peopel debating why their charger is the best.

amram

Hi Hezik,
Thank you for the detailed message.
I assume it will be my responsibility to screen and sort the best out of this thread.
Thus that is the purpose of this forum.. Exchanging knowledge... Isn’t it?
Kind regards
Amram

woodie

Just to add confusion to this thread ;-) , FMA has a new charger out with much higher charging capacity (PowerLab 8) and Thunder Power is supposedly releasing a new charger soon which is a replacement for their TP1010C/210 combo. I believe it is also a higher power charger to let us charger at higher C rates.

With any charger, the output power is limited by the input power (obviously) so for the higher C rated charging of 5000mah packs, you need to have more than 12V DC input voltages.

Woodie
Team Acme LG

TonyF

My Feedback: (92)

The ICharger 301B is the best charger I have seen or used. I got it from Neutronics. It is a 1000 watt charger capable of high rate charging on 10S packs. I haven't hit packs hard but at the Nats I only had one set of Neu packs for the Onas and I used this charger at 8 amps to charge the pack. Worked perfectly.

I have had nothing but trouble with the FMA charger. The one I bought has been back to FMA 4 times. The last time they were quite a bit of trouble to get them to replace the charger.

J Lachowski

My Feedback: (46)

I also had my share of problems with the FMA Chargers and finally gave up on them. FMA did refund me my money.

I still have 2 Thunderpower 1010C chargers that work fine. Each are several years old.

I am primarily now using two Icharger 1010B+ chargers that are holding up fine so far.

I also have an Icharger 3010B that has so far worked fine. Have only had this one a short while. Only time will tell.

hezik

This is not correct. It is entirely possible to make a charger that can charge 10s with 50A and uses 12v as input power. However, it would cost tons and would be highly inpractical, you would need a 170 Amp power supply, for instance.

The people at hyperion do listen to their customers and you can ask them questions. I have asked them why they didn't just build a charger that can charge 2000Watt or something like that, the answer was very simple. They can, technically it is possible, but the components are VERY expensive. It's not a problem of being impossible, it's a problem of component prices, so they have to develop their chargers in such a way that they get the maximum output power at a reasonable price. If they wanted to give the 615 DUO 100 Watt more charging power, it would cost more than the double. So their current charger-line is a compromise between power and price.

The TP101 is still a very good charger, but too expensive for what it offers, and the balancer is not integrated, and quite expensive as well. Also, if you have a pack with one or more cells with a different resistance, the TP101 + charger doesn't handle that very well.

The charger-market is on the move, more than ever, and I expect there will be a lot of releases the coming few years. 2 year ago, no lipo could be charged at more than 1C (actually, they could, but manufacturers didn't encourage it) and 5C chargaeable lipo's are becoming more mainstream today. LiFePo can almost be charged at infinite rates. The demand for way more powerfull chargers is a trend of the last ~2 years, and the technique behind lipo chargers has become more grown-up. Electric flying has realy took off, and the charger-market is following it.

Considering iCharger now has a 1000Watt charger at a very reasonable pricetag, I suspect a lot more manufacturers will release similar chargers the coming period.

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

I have a pair of iChargers. The support is amazing. I had an issue and had a brand new charger in my hands in a couple of days. Find an authorized distributor in your area and you can't go wrong.

Mvelez

I can not recommend one so far. I only say i've had problems on my TP 1010 C. it overheats a lot and throws an error called current overfailure. i had to get an external fan to blow it. an that is flying at 2700 meters above sea level (8800 ft) with average ambient  temp of 13 C.

my flying buddy has the same problem and managed to use the same blower.

I think i'll go to the I charger soon. heard good things about it.

Marcelo

hezik

What are you doing with it when it overheats? I have seen multiple of these chargers in action, with themperatures up to 30 degrees celcius, and never saw the problem you're having..

twoturnspin

Hi Amram,

I have been running the Hyperion Duo chargers for some time, excellent performance but because they charge through the main leads, while simultaneously discharge through the balance leads (like most chargers), they are not terribly efficient and can take some time to balance up a pack that is out of balance.

I recently purchased a pair of Cellpro 10S chargers having looked at their performance for some time. I bought them because you can charge through the balance leads at up to 4amps which if fine for most of the time. The key thing here is that the main leads aren't charging a cell that is mostly full, while the balance leads discharge the same cell (so that all of them can be boughtup to the same level). Rather each cell is individually charged - much better in my view. Note you can also use the main leads to charge faster if you like. I note that others in this thread have said they have had problems, I'm not sure what they have been but the only issue I have had so far is the internal fan on one of the units stopping but this is easily fixed so not really an issue for me.

In terms of charging at faster rates, like 2C, I can't really see the point. I find with four packs and a pair of chargers I can fly continuously all day as the average interval between flights is around 30 minutes and packs take less than an hour to charge. Note that your packs are normally 90% recharged after 30-40 minutes as the final 10% takes a lot longer to complete the charge.

The other thing to think about is your power supply. It is essential that you purchase it after you have made the decision as to what charger to buy as some, like the Hyperion Duo, can take higher voltage (up to 26V) while others, like the Cellpro, have lower voltage limits (16V in this case). Don't be like me, the number of power supplies I have is scary!

Good luck with whatever you decide, electric flight has made a significant improvement to me and my enjoyment of my flying.

Simon

nonstoprc

My Feedback: (90)

I took the same route and do not want to repeat most benefits Simon mentioned.

For the power supplier, I went with a compact design with multiple 12v outputs total maxed at 29A. One such power supplier for one cellpro 10s charger. Setup will provide some level of redundancy in case one charger or power supplier breaks during practice or competition.


Since it is not clear the long term effect of high-current charging of 5c or even 10C on lipos, I decided to go with a proven setup (with redundancy).

QC

amram

Hello,
I find the ability to charge over the balancing port interesting. Yes it is forcing slower charging rate but this is not an issue for me.
Does it mean that the Cellpro sense each cell's resistance and balancing by supplying different current to each cell?
I am wondering if the I-Charger and the Hyperion can Charge this way as well.
Amram

hezik

I find this a bit of a moot argument. First you state the Hyperion's aren't efficient because of the balancing, which you see as a downpoint, and next you advertise a charger that takes even longer to charge a battery, because it's limited in current.

At the field, I charge my (8s) packs (5000mAh) in under 30 minutes. With a Hyperion Duo. Were I to charge them with a cellpro at 4A, it would take me close to an hour. I charge at 2C.

If i were to charge at 5C, I would have my packs charged in about 15 minutes.

I do agree with you that charging time doesn't scale with charging power. If a pack takes an hour at 1C, it doesnt take 6 minutes at 10c, to put it shortly.

The Hyperion packs perform better when charged at 5C as oppose to 1C.

I do find the charging through the balancing port an interesting approach, and I do think that's the way we should go, but the limited current because of thin wiring has to go before it'll be truly interesting.

Note that if your packs are out of balance that either they are worn out, or you discharge them too much, or at too high rates. An F3A pack that is used normally, should hardly have any disbalance.

twoturnspin

Hi Amram,

The Cellpro charges at different rates according to the current state of each cell, I'm not sure if it uses internal resistance as a measure, I thought it was based on the voltage of the cell, presumably measured under some kind of load the charger applies but I do not know the actual methodology. I have found it to be effective.

Neither the Hyperion nor the I-Charger work this way, they both charge through the main leads and discharge to balance through the balance leads. I looked at plenty of chargers on the market but only found the Cellpro that charges individual cells.

Interestingly the Cellpro also provides an IR measurement which I like however the Hyperion does not have this feature.

Simon

hezik

It does. The Hyperion tells you the IR of a pack as well. If you want to know the IR of a single cell, you can measure it through the balancing port.

You can charge a single cell through the balancing port on any charger. However on normal charges you're limited to charging a single cell, whereas the Cellpro can do entire packs this way.

twoturnspin

Don't get me wrong Hezik, I like my Hyperion chargers and they have served me well, the inefficiency (maybe the incorrect term) is that they are dischargers while they are charging, seems inefficient to me. I totally agree that you can charge packs much faster using the main leads I just don't often have a requirement to do so but of course different people / different requirements.

I disagree that if you charge them faster they perform better, my experience is that they perform better when warmer, I do not see any logic in the charge rate improving the performance of the pack other than they would be warmer if charged faster. If your assertion is true I would love to understand this better, can you advise further? Personally, I warm my packs if the temperature is lower than 25 degres or so, the difference in performance of a cold pack is measurably lower than that of a warm pack.

Lastly, I have had two new packs (cheap Flightmax) be well out of balance and took ages to balance up using my Hyperions through several charge cycles. I put them both on a friend's Cellpro and they balanced up very quickly. After charging them on the Cellpro several times they seem to have repaired themselves and kep their balance much better.

All the best, Simon

hezik

Indeed.. and also don't get me wrong; I do like the idea of charging through the balanceport, but don't like it's restrictions (limited amps). Also, I'm not a hyperion fanboy, I do like their chargers but nothing's perfect.

They do. Try charging one pack at 5C structurally for the coming 15 cycles, and another pack at 1C. Then measure the IR. You'll see the IR of the pack that has been charged with 5C, has dropped. Again don't get me wrong, we're not talking about world-shaking differences, but still.

Flightmax Lipo's are fine lipo's, only their quality control and matching is somewhat lacking, so you can end up with packs with cells with different IR. I have one of those packs, the rest doesn't have that. Still it is dependant on the balancing algorithm of your charger and the balancing capacity of the balancer how this translates to longer charging times.

However.. so, if you use a 'normal charger' you can charge most lipo's fast and some (the ones with a lesser cell) will take longer. With a balancer-lead charger you'll have to charge all your packs slower.

twoturnspin

Thanks for that hezik, I have had the Duo charger for several years and never knew it measured IR! I checked it out when I read your post and sure enough it was there, brilliant. Appreciate the info.
Simon

hezik

You're welcome, glad to be of service.

In theory I totally agree with you. One wouldn't even need very thick balancing wires to enable higher currents, just a tad thicker than what they use now. Since they are really short wires, it's not neccesary to use high AWG wire.

If the lipo manufacturers would use a slightly thicker wiring for their balancing connectors, then charging through the balancing connector would be perfect. Doesn't have to be 5C, if they could get it up to 10A, i'd also switch. I do think Cellpro has the right idea. Instead of converting 12v to 40+ volts, it's way easier just to charge per cell.

Alex Voicu

I bought this charger here: http://www.okhobby.com/product.php?id_product=1065

Mega Power Gemini-2014 Duo 300W + 300W Twin Charger

It has 2 separate charging circuits, each 300W, displays the IR of the battery packs and the price is very good.
Using a good power supply, you should be able to charge 2 5s 5000 mAh packs at the same time.
I heard it comes from the same factory as the Hyperion chargers.
I haven't tested it yet, but i'm sure you can find a lot of reviews.

amram

Small problem:
When going to order the CELLPRO 10S ob the FMA site, you are redirectibg to the supplier page at Singapure.
The problem is that they charge more then $100 for shipping which is really rediculus.

SO my question is: WHERE I CAN FIND A REAONABLE STORE TO BUY THE CELLPRO 10S?

Regards
Amram

mola

My Feedback: (1)

Lorenz in Germany.

[link=http://www.f3alorenz.de/index-ladetechnik.htm]http://www.f3alorenz.de/index-ladetechnik.htm[/link]

[link=http://www.f3alorenz.de/zb-ladetechnik/body-ladegeraete.htm]http://www.f3alorenz.de/zb-ladetechnik/body-ladegeraete.htm[/link]

TonyF

My Feedback: (92)

Just want to make a correction. It's the 3010B.