RockEnRoller6

This will be my first EDF jet, being an F-16 crew dawg, this was a no brainier! Had to have the E-Flite F-16! Anyways, I wanted some help/ advice on my set-up for the jet. I'm going to be running the sport set-up with the Delta-V 480 4000kv EDF system, linked to a Castle Thunderbird 54 ESC, this was were I hit a wall, choosing my ESC. Now In the Manuel E-Flite is calling for the 40-amp pro lite brushless ESC, well with a maximum load of 40amps, I read farther into the motor system and found there is a 15 second burst current of 45amps! why would E-Flite call for a 40amp ESC when there is a rather long burst current of 45amps on the motor? Again I wanted to play it safe and I bought the Castle 54 ESC even though the 40 would suffice I want to play it safe. Will the 54 work fine in my set-up? Also I'm going to be using a AR500 Rx, again they call for the AR1600 I believe, well I'm not using six channels because I'm going for belly landings and don't need the extra servo for steering. Finally I'm getting my JP8 from a Turnigy 11.1V 2200mAH 3-cell. I've been doing my research and this is what I've come up with, so if anyone could steer me in the right direction and tell me what they think that would be great!

David Eichstedt

My Feedback: (17)

The 54 will work fine for your setup. On 3S the 4000kV motor pulls just over 30A, if I recall, which just pushed us over the threshhold for recommending our 30A ESC.

However, I'm worried about the weight of your 2200 battery. We recommend the Thunder Power ProLite or ProLiteV2 because they only weigh 5 oz. Most 2200s are 6oz or so. Believe it or not, it makes a big difference in the flyability of the airplane both due to the weight and the forward cg.

If you're going to stick with the 2200, and you're flying as a belly-lander, I suggest you put the battery in the aft location shown in the instruction manual, not the forward location. That will give you a better cg.

The AR500 is a perfectly suitable receiver for the F-16.

If you find you want more thrust after you fly your 3S setup, there are options. The 4000kV motor provides a lot more performance on 4S than on 3S. Unfortunately the T-bird 54 won't run on 4S. Your choice in this case is to either upgrade your ESC & run 4S, or upgrade your motor to the 4800kV AND your ESC to a true 60A, AND your battery to at least a 2600, 25C 3S. Either way it will get you about the same (enhanced) performance at a similar investment.

I hope you have fun with it. It's a smooth, stable flyer that perks up a LOT with the more powerful systems.

RockEnRoller6

Great advice! Thank you! I also was curious about the 4000kv EDF system. I've read were people are saying their F-16 has literally burn up because the motor has caught fire? Is there some truth to this and should I be worried about the 4000kv motor?

RockEnRoller6

Well now I'm ticked off, I didn't realize all the problems the F-16 was having!!! I can't believe I have dumped $100.00 into buying this bird!!! Can anyone give any hope as to if I should keep working with it? I mean, I've already spent allot on all the equipment for the plane (besides the motor). What should I do? I'm lost!!! This really lights a fire under my rear!!![:@] Anyways I'm trying to think positive and I'm not at a total loss, I have receipts to all my equipment, but I cant take the 16 back, wings are clued on already. So I'm thinking about the Electrifly L-39, have seen many good things about it. Would that be a better decision? sorry if I seem spastic, I'm just totally annoyed I've waisted money on this thing and Horizon will not back up their loyal customers with support!

mark_d

Check out this thread over at RCG http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...ght=eflite+f16
They have worked out some combinations that seem to work well.

RockEnRoller6

What about the Phase 3 F-16? Want to run the stock set-up, anyone know if it would be worth it?

David Eichstedt

My Feedback: (17)

RockEnRoller6,

Whoa, hold on now. Until you've flown your F-16 it's premature to declare it junk!

First, these forums tend to magnify the true extent of problems. The number of calls to our product support department on the F-16 motor issue on a percentage basis is actually quite normal, and not nearly as widespread as the forums have made it appear. Note that the motor problem was limited to the OEM motor included with the first release of the F-16, item EFL7075.

Second, even so, we were quite upset with the problems that these customers were having. In response, we came out with the new version of the F-16 WITHOUT the OEM motor (item number EFL7075B, which I think is the airplane you purchased), AND the 4800kV version of the Delta-V 480.

Third, your 4000kV system will fly the F-16 just fine, but you need to pay attention to the installation I described above so you can achieve a good cg. The Delta-V 480 positions the motor aft of the fan, not inside the fan like the original OEM motor, so that alone moves the cg aft a little. Then, by putting the battery in the aft bay instead of the forward bay, you'll really get the cg in a much better location. This is important because EDFs generally require more elevator control throw than prop planes because there is no prop blast over the elevators. With a forward cg, the need for more elevator throw is increased. This is why some people couldn't get their original F-16s to rotate; heavy battery, forward cg and not enough elevator throw. Then once in the air, the extra weight and forward cg required more lift and more up elevator trim, both of which cause drag.

Some modelers, cognizant of the cg, then added weight to the tail to get the airplane to balance. An extra ounce up front, an extra ounce in the back, and you've just added about 10% to the gross weight of the airplane! We have helped a couple customers at events who had done this. We took out their 6 oz battery and the tail weight, and let them try a Thunder Power 2100 ProLite 3S that weighs 5 oz, and the difference with the airplane was amazing. In one flight each they both went from struggling with the airplane to enjoying it. Both of these were with the OEM motor and the battery in the forward bay.

Fourth, so you know what to expect, the sport setup you're using will result in about a 65 mph airplane, maybe 70 without the landing gear installed. It's not a screamer on that setup, but it is fast enough to get your whistle wet with EDFs at a more economical price point. And it's still a very nice-handling airplane. Either of the high-power setups (4000kV on 4S or 4800kV on 3S) will get it up to about 85 mph, which does make a big difference but requires a higher investment to get there.

Fifth, Horizon absolutely supports our products. Sometimes the product support department gets a little backed-up, but we're well-known for going the extra mile to satisfy our customers.

Good luck.

RockEnRoller6

Wait I'm honestly confused, so if I'm reading this right, the EFL7075 F-16 is not the same as the ARF kit I have just bought? This kit came with a 400 series ducted fan unit with the motor mounted in a different location? In turn the bird I have purchased is a second trial run kit with the optional 4000kv/4800kv 65mm unit? So with the first run of the 400 motor this is were all the problems have been and not with the new delta-v 480?

David Eichstedt

My Feedback: (17)

Correct. The unit people had trouble with was the pre-installed, OEM fan & motor, NOT the new Delta-V 480 systems. The OEM motor fits inside the fan center hub; the Delta-V 480's motor sits behind the center hub with an adapter. The fan units both mount in the same location in the airplane.

The OEM motor was a 2-pole brushless inrunner. The Delta-V uses brushless outrunners that seem to be more robust.

RockEnRoller6

Indeed I see were you are coming from, searching through the forums it only makes sense that people were not switching their esc to run a 2-pole motor. That accounts for why motors were frying. Another question, I called Horizon and talked with a gentleman about the 4000kv edf unit, now Horizon has never steered me wrong but he stated that the reason the 4000kv unit is unavailable is people were having balance issues with the fan unit. In turn the fan blades were breaking off. Is this a true statement? Seems rather odd if you ask me. Anyways, I really appreciate your help Dave, you have cleared up many misconceptions I've had!

David Eichstedt

My Feedback: (17)

Dang! I just typed out a lengthy response but when I submitted it I got some weird error message from the RCU server!

Short answer: No, we're out of EFLDF480, the Delta-V 480, 4000kV because demand has been strong and we've sold out of them!

EFLDF15, the Delta-V 15 used in the BAe Hawk is the one with the rotor issue. We've solved it, by the way, and have new rotors inbound with thicker blades and better material, but they haven't arrived yet.

mark_d

Could you shoehorn a v-15 into the f-16? That one nice fan except for the odd size shaft requirements. Do you ever see the possibility of releasing a 3.175 adapter for that fan David?

David Eichstedt

My Feedback: (17)

Not sure at this point. We'd have to look at the return vs. expense.

RockEnRoller6

When will the 4000kv be available?

David Eichstedt

My Feedback: (17)

A couple of weeks.

RockEnRoller6

Awesome, well I did buy the Phase 3 16, I've decided I didn't want my E-flite F-16 to be the first edf in the air due to the cost involved with it. The phase 3 F-16 is extremely quick on the stock set-up! Handles like a dream and keeps you on rails, but the looks of the E-flite 16 just blow it away! I've got high hopes for my E-flite 16 after flying my P3!

wpotter6

Well Dave, what are you doing for those of us who bought the original model? I actually got off 2 successful flights with it. It was not a screamer, but that was not what I was looking foir anyway. It was simply my first try at an EDF after flying electric warbirds. On the thrid flight I noticed a huge reduction in performance not long after takeoff. A loop was impossible and I recovered it from a stall and tried bring it in for a landing and ending up crashing short of the runway with the aircraft in several pieces. I did glue it back together and rechecked everything, CG was OK and the watmeters was only down about 10 watts from were it started. I have tried at least 10 takeoffs since then and it will not climb out. I can rotate and get off the ground about 6 to 12 inches before it just plops right back down. On my first 2 flights it took off in about 50 feet with no problems, now I can run it for more than 150 feet and try to rotate, and it just will not fly. I mailed the motor back this morning. My sirframe is pretty ugly now and I am not sure that I want to invest in a new one after all of this.

wpotter6

I have gone the the Horizon web site to see the current recommended setups. I basically spent $420 getting the original into the air, for three flights, using all of the recommended accesories. Now, in order to get back in the air with a decent looking aircraft, I have 2 choices, Sport or High Power.

Sport:
New airframe $120
New ESC $70
480V 4000kv $80
Total cost $270

High Power:
New airframe $120
New ESC $85
480V 4800kv $80
2600 Battery $75
Total cost $360

So, my frustration is that it will take at least $700 investment to have a decent flying aircraft.

David Eichstedt

My Feedback: (17)

wpotter6,

You've done the right thing in sending the motor in to Product Support. They're the guys who can help you.

David

wpotter6

I will wait patiently for a response from product support and then figure out how much it will cost me to get this thing back into the air. I am beginning to think that the new T-28D or the P-51 BL might be a more economical option. And I am sure those planes will fly as nice as my Corsair, plus I could salvage my ESC, AR500 and servos from the F-16 and use them in one of these planes. Actually, for the initial investment in the original F-16, with a useless motor, I could have bought a T-28D BNF AND a P-51 BL BNF.

RockEnRoller6

I've got both the T-28D and Mustang BNF, both are awesome flyers! For me, knowing PZ was coming out with the T-28 in the 1960's Air Force scheme was an absolute no-brainier being in the Air Force myself, and having flown a real T-28, it's one of my favorite aircraft! Also the new Mustang is a whole new bird! Quick, responsive on the sticks, and is very stable for a stang. If you don't have have them both, go get them! For the BNF Mustang, best $179 I've ever spent!

highflyer33

I have a question. I have a Banana Hobby 90mm F-18, (we all know the story with them!) and it's been a thorn in my side from day 1! Long story short, after I was finally able to get it to fly after two major repairs because of their faulty aileron wiring which I later found, the fan unit that came with the a/c exploded into many pieces. So, needing a new fan, and motor as the shaft was bent, the ESC fried. Was supposed to be an 80amp as advertised, but found that it was a 70amp. Anyway, I bought a Hextronic 120 amp ESC, and worked on the swap till about 3 this morning. Finally got it working on a partially discharged 5s3700mah batt. Charged completely, and went to bed intending to fly this a.m. When I plugged in the battery, NOTHING! Tried a 4s 14.8v batt, and all I got was control surfaces, and no throttle. LED in Spektrum radio lit up with 4s, but not with 5s! Nothing moves or works on the 5s. Yes it's charged, and yes it shows 4.2v per cell. I'm FRUSTRATED and P.O'd and getting tired of spending money for something that isn't working! Does ANYONE know of a QUALITY 90mm/ESC combo anywhere? Something that I can count on working? Any suggestions? I'm sick of "experimenting" trying to find something that works! HELP!!! Thanks guys!

wpotter6

Well Horizon came through with a new motor, the V480 4000KV. Thanks David. I did get the new T-28D BNF and it flies great, very similar to the Corsair that I have.

With the new motor I had to upgrade the ESC and decided to go with the 60 Amp instead of the 40 Amp. I live in the desert and feel better with additional margin when flying in the heat. I have found that getting the CG in the proper range on the F-16 is tricky. I have come up with a solution that provides a good CG with batteries ranging from 5.0 oz to 6.6 oz. For the sport setup it is recommended to put the battery up in the nose, and this works with the 5.0 oz battery but still puts the CG at the forward limit and it flies nose heavy. Any additional battery weight puts it out of the CG limit. I tried the battery mounted in the rear, like the high power setup, but with the ESC also in the rear the CG is then too far aft. So, I put the ESC in the nose, as far forward as posiible, then my main reciever just behind it with the remote receiver mounted by the nosewheel servo. Then the battery mounts in the rear behind the nosewheel servo, just like the high power recommended setup. I can put either a 5 oz or a 6.6 oz battery there and the CG is fine and it is not so nose heavy. The only drawback is that there are many wires running through the nosewheel area, so I used some small zip ties around them to keep them clear of the steering and servo. I ran the servo to receiver wires down one side and the ESC to motor wires down the other side. This sport setup is still not super fast and cannot sustain a vertical climb, but for me that is OK because it is really my first jet. I do believe that flying this takes much more concentration than the propeller aircraft and in the end makes me a better pilot.

skorman

My Feedback: (3)

In my opinion, the high power recommendations that E-Flite specifies are terrible and not well thought out. With the receiver forward and the ESC and battery placements aft, it's too tail heavy. I tried installing the esc in the canopy but the wires would pop off the canopy. I finally ended up mounting the esc in the intake tunnel below the plane. The plane balances perfectly and flies great. But what a hassle. I also tried the E-Flite 60 esc and it was not well suited for the motor/fan combination. At full power the motor would cut out. A Castle 60 esc solved that problem.

wpotter6

I agree that it is tail heavy with the ESC and the battery installed in the recommended locations. I got much better balance by putting the ESC in the nose, but this results in a lot of wires going through to the back and really makes a tight fit for the battery and canopy. I was able to mount the ESC and battery both in the back, but then I added weight to the nose by gluing a lug nut into the front of the canopy. This puts the CG in the correct range, but of course adds some extra weight to the aircraft.

I can see that having the esc in the intake has one big advantage, in that it provides good cooling air to the ESC.