Hey all, I was going to post this in the GGL thread, but thought that it might conjest it with not so related info. Also, since it has been stated, that anything other than the proven mix is an experiment. So i figured that i would make a new thread about it. Anyone else doing this, please feel free to contribute.
I thought about posting this in the glow engine forum, but we all know what will happen I have had alot of "advice" against doing this, and some is just flat out rediculous! When i was trying to find a substitute for klotz oil locally, one guy said that i wont gain any power with methanol over gasoline, and gas and methanol wont mix and there is no oil that exists that will mix with both types of fuel. Im thinking that guy needs to find a new line of work! Anyways enough ranting, and back on topic...
I have tried working out glow fuels that can be cut with gas, but havent found a miracle fuel with just the right ratios, so i had to make my own. Since nitro is unavailable here unless i drive about 2 hours one way, thats out. I got a jug of gasoline, methyl hydrate from canadian tire, klotz oil from mail order hobby shop and after i mixed the fuel, acetone
I know from the other thread that we need roughly 1/3 methanol for plug to stay lit, and nitro helps with power/idle/transition, so i made a mix using regular gasoline (purple gas to be exact) methyl hydrate, oil (12% cause of the added viscosity of gasoline) and acetone as a substitute for nitro.
in my mix each consists of ( per 4 Litres)
480ml Klotz Super Techniplate (12%)
2200ml purple gasoline (55%)
1320ml methyl hydrate (33%)
It was a last minute decision to add the acetone, so I added 75ml to the overall mix which is about 2%. I know it changes the ratios a bit, but not too much to make a difference.
The next mix will be:
2125ml gasoline (premium only cause thats what is used in proven mix and to see the difference it makes) 53%
1320ml methyl hydrate 33%
480ml oil 12%
75ml acetone 2%

On the mix that i have now, it was very hard to start (cold, and a fairly new engine) and the needle was fairly touchy and had to be leaned a bunch from when it was on glow. It ran only at high rpm (didnt have time to tune it) and i wanted to get some more run time on it before i really try and tune it. It ran without glow power with an OS F plug (will try other plugs i have later). The low end is still slobbering rich (does this affect starting? ) and i havent touched it. It was so rich, that i couldnt really get it to idle very low at all.
On the high end, one or two clicks goes a long way, but with the methanol and acetone, i think it tames it down a bit. Run time was good at 20 mins on an 8oz tank. which translates to .4 oz/min (full throttle) I imagine that if i had throttled it like a normal flight, i could have easily made it last for 30 mins, cause in reality, i only cruise at 75% max and save full throttle for climbs, take off, and aerobatics.
From the results that i saw today, i think that this is an option to escape the high dollar glow fuel and crappy burn rates. there is also WAY LESS oil residue. Once i get this thing tuned, i will post a video of how it runs. I wont video tuning, but will record how it starts once it is tuned. There is no need for me to have foul language on camera, cause when i am having troubles with something, the F-bomb flies freely.
I hope that during the week, i get more time with this, so i can get it running real good in time for flying season.
Stay tuned!

Hey Andrew;
I think you should market that product Man, If it works I sure could use a new job, miss trucking OTR, and been wanting a custom rig of my own for many years!
Wonder would that mix work well in a 30 size Heli? I still linda new to nitro, and am still learning all I can, some info here is a bit over my head since many of you Cats have years of flight experience etc.
Hey send me a jug, wanna see if it'll work in my old Goldwing too!

"Never know till ya try!"[>:]

well i cant market it, cause its not really my idea, and the gasoline probably wouldnt stay "good" for long enough. I cant remember who was all involved, but its in the gas fuel with glow plug no ignition thread. Its a really long read. Mixing the fuel is easy, just buy a glass measuring jar from walmart and one of those miximizer things. Pour it all into a jug, and shake it up. One thing i like to do is circulate the fuel in the jug with my fuel pump. About the heli, im not sure if it will work. It will run, just probably isnt enough cooling. If you are willing to risk it, try it out and monitor head temps with an infared thermometer.

Hi Andrew, I run my SuperTigre 51 on gas/spark and experience needle sensitivity like you mention. Yes the low end has to be leaned very significantly over the glow setting. About 1 1/2 turns if memory serves me correctly but I do remember it gets turned in a lot from glow. Good luck.

I was going to run glow plug and gasoline, but i dont have money for a charger and battery to run it. I was also hoping that the methanol would help desensitze the needles some. So that 1 1/2 turns is in from factory settings, or is that the setting, after turning the needle all the way in? I was really hoping to run this engine again this week, but its my gfs spring break, and im working on my multi rating (its a lot more work than i thought). Normally i would have time during the week, but i dont get to spend much time with the gf when she is student teaching. Im hoping that next week i can work on this.

Just use a "D" cell battery and a battery holder from Raido Shack. ... But not their battery.

I've been disappointed with their batterys.

Hi Andrew, the "leaned 1 1/2 turns" reference was from the original location where it ran as a glow. Good luck man.

What is methyl hydrate? And do you know how harmful the burned vapors are? Same goes for Acetone. I think its considered a carcinogin in liquid form much less when burned??? Any worse than gas???

Hate to play the devils advocate here but you did not mention anything about researching the chemicals or the chemical mixes before you started playing around. There is a TV show here called "1000 ways to die" and if I've learned anything from watching it is that alot of people have died from not thinking things through.

Mike

BTW.... Are you still using muffler pressure to the fuel tank??? If so, keep in mind that gasoline fuel vapors are MUCH more volitile than Alcohol vapors. The pressure line is basically a direct line to the flame front in the muffler..... good luck with that.

On the other hand, without muffler pressure tank location will be extremely critical and needle settings will be sensitive. And that's with glow fuel... good luck with anything else.

Personally, Gas/glow without a pump carburetor or maybe a Perry pump and carb is kinda futile but hey.... more power to 'ya brother.

let em blow, ha ha we need more good stories, the more gore the better! ha,ha,ha,ha ha.[sm=pirate.gif]

Methyl hydrate is probably methanol aka methy alcohol. That interpretation is based on the context and chemistry.

Another possibility is a clathrate of methane and water, which is found in deep oceans and wells. Basically, that is a crystalline form of methane (which is normally a gas) that forms under pressure with water. It is relatively stable and has been considered as a way to transport methane easily. Methane hydrate (not methyl hydrate) is a more appropriate name for the clathrate.

As for the carcinogenicity of burning acetone, think of all the other things that are being burned in our engines, such as nitromethane, methanol, oil, and various additives to the oil. All of those things produce active chemical species when burned and should not be enhaled continuously. Just don't run them in a closed room. Even toasting bread produces carcinogens.

John

Yeah, even steak grease dripping on a fire is supposedly cancer causing, but I'm NOT giving up my steaks!!

AV8TOR

Methyl hydrate, wood alcohol and methanol, are different names for the same thing. And the whole toxicity part, of course im aware. It is a combustible fuel, is it not? Almost anything that burns, can be considered toxic to some extent. I am running the engine outdoors, im not sticking my face directly in the exhaust (that would be stupid) and im not bathing in the stuff! I actually wear gloves when i mix fuel. And its not stored indoors, so no need to get all worked up. I am aware of what im working with. I am still using exhaust pressure, and again, i know about the hazzards of that, so i am using about double the amount of tubing needed. I would much rather use crank pressure, but dont have the money for the drill bit, tap and check valve. so this will do for now. Im not running it in a plane, and if the fuel tank catches on fire (highly unlikely, cause the exhaust gasses are cooled considerably by the time they get to the tank) I can quickly rip the lines off so my engine doesnt catch on fire. If my sawhorse burns, im out about $5 including the screws to build it. I do understand your concern for my well being, but I have a pretty good idea of what im doing, and the dangers involved.
The whole gas/glow without a pump is doable, but in any case a pump would be far superior to other setups. but its just one more thing to buy, and possibly have to replace if things go south.
I am hoping that on monday i can get this engine out again, so i can run it. The next goal is getting it tuned and running it for at least an hour, so i can get any potential bugs worked out. Then i will post the video, as promised. After that, i might try the D cell battery idea, just to see how well it works. Straight gas and oil is far easier for me to get, and will be easier on the finish of the A/C.

Well, i tried running my engine today, without success. I couldnt get the ***** to start. I really need an electric starter, but for right now, i only have my cordless drill. (it doesnt work all that well) If i could get to a place that had a plug in, i could use my electric drill. It definately turns fast enough, cause thats what i used for the first runs as a glow engine. I might go and try again this evening.