peterburford

Gordon and I have been discussing this.
We have our ideas from a manufacturing point of view.
Why do you think it is so?
Peter

fiery

My Feedback: (2)

Well, here's a couple of reasons:

1. Smell of kerosene (although low odour and scented variants are now readily available)

2. Handling issues with fuels containing ether

3. Cost of ether [:'(]

4. Black goo all over your plane unless you get the mix / compression ratio spot on

5. breakages of crankpins, gudgeon pins due to novices over compressing the poor wee beasties

6. Perceived difficulty in starting and adjusting - reputation for biting fingers!

7. Cost to manufacture

8. Unavailability of modern, scnhuerle ported engines "from the factory" (I am not talking about conversions) in .40 sizes and over that will keep up with modern glow counterparts

9. Perceived throttling problems (mostly not supportable)

Ummm ... that's nine

Chime in lads, I am sure there are quite a few more you can add!

AMB

And once thru the "learning curve" the beasts are fine and run and run and run sipping fuel gobs of torque what a problem , with mine
033 PAWs thru ST 90 conversions and factory production models, lucky to have PAWs and 5 irvine 40 diesels this side of pond we are
lucky Davis is around or most of them would be dead and the Lucky few of use who can make them or heads for them, and Burford
who keeps the faith too martin
and Irvine has been prodded by Bob Davis and Paul at Just Egines to no avail to keep them in the line
Just too many problems guys, dont forget those hard to setup 4 stroke glow engines
Play it safe back to rubber (joking I do not want to upset these guys ans sure some of us still power with it)
in closing Fiery, I can not come up with any more,

Hobbsy

My Feedback: (102)

I would rule out the crank or rod breakages, and the finger biting, I've not had either happen, you already ruled out #9 and the rest are right on.

Dan Vincent

Peter,

This is geared more to guys sitting on the fence about jumping into diesels.

In this day of instant results there are people who just don't want to spend the time learning how to start and run a diesel. It takes a bit of dedication and interest to learn diesels. Once you do it gives you a sense of accomplishment.

Smaller diesels should catch on with park flyers because they are so quiet. If you muffle a small glo engine down you also lose power and gain muffler weight.

There seems to be a lot of emphasis on how fast an engine will turn a prop. Diesels have a lot more torque so they can handle more pitch at a lower RPM. We have to get out of this current trend towards screaming engines and pay more attention to how well an engine will pull at lower RPM. Maybe we should adopt a "Stealth" mindset. Run engines without the neighbors knowing you're doing it.

Now if I could just find some diesel fuel with a Barbeque smell to the exhaust.......

Jim Thomerson

Diesels are not more popular because they are not more popular. Fuel is usually not available at your LHS for this reason, so you have to order fuel or make your own. You cannot buy a diesel at you LHS because there is no market for them. Because they are strange, diesels have a bunch of bad myths: the fuel will go bad instantly, they are hard to break in, they break easily, have to lug a big prop, they are finger biters, impossible to start. etc.

Running a diesel is different from running a glowplug engine and so people mostly see bad performance from diesels run by novices. Actually, I enjoy being a little weird, and I'd not like them to become ho-hum common.

Jim

Tim Wiltse-RCU

Jim said what I ws thinking too! I jumped into a Cox reed valve conversion and love it! The Davis Diesel Head is not the greatest thing in the world by any means but diesels are neat to me now. Heck I like the smell of the fuel... guess I'm weird

Later,
Tim

RRyan

What's odd is the parallel of diesel to glow and diesel to gasoline here in the states. Diesels never were all that popular in the US as model engines or automotive engines. Allot of Brits grew up and teethed on stinkers, but here we took the spark plug out, put the glow plug in and went flying. There have always been a small number of us that simply love engines, myself in that group. Diesels are amazing little creatures and I find most people astounded by them, but not desireous to get involved. I've taken diesels to club meetings and been asked even by older modelers if they run. I've always thought "what a stupid question, if they didn't run why would anyone bother building them"

The facination with engines is the difference. If you watch swap meets you'll see boxes and boxes of glow engine bits, many butchered with pliers, many not worn out, just having lost prop washers and NVAs. They're cast aside for a new one as not worth the trouble to repair. On the occasion a diesel is found it is seldom butchered and many times worn out. Diesel guys enjoy the engines as much or more than the flying and generally take much better care of the hardware. Go to an RC field ad all the way down the flightline are guys with they're starters. I think fully 98% of them would be helpless without them. I've had guys see me hand start an engine and offer me their starters like maybe I was too poor to buy one, they're clueless. But they are not interested in the engines, just the play.

So that's the difference, engine lovers vs engine users, the lovers are a very small group.

maxtenet

I've been flying diesels for thirty years now and I am convinced that it boils down to one thing. Its easier to obtain and operate a glow engine. This is why McDonalds is so popular. No effort or thinking required and your stomach is full. Diesel owners are the equivalent of those of us who will spend all day cooking a good Calabrese sauce for our spaghetti or slow cooking spare ribs. We enjoy a much more satisfying experience but it takes a little work. Most people can't even get a glow to run right (if you doubt it, check out the glow section). Add compression adjustment and they will go into a panic attack! If you run diesel consider yourself one of the elite (not ETA) few that experiences more of life than the Big Mac eaters.

Max

Motorboy

Not many buy dieselengines, when mostly of all glow engines are sold, after all what i can see forum for glow engines are full of questions of engine problems when here i see in "everything diesel" are not much talk about problems (know it is not many diesel engine owner there) and there are folk with condemnations of the diesel engines without tried to run own dieselengine. There are not instructor in model airplane club who can influence and learn the pilots to like and use diesel engines.

Jens Eirik

johnvb-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

Ah, finger biting. I have vivid memories of a carnivorous Taipan Tyro with an 8*4 nylon prop from thirty odd years ago

More to do with the level of user competence at the time of course.

AMB

Finger wack yup was part of the learning curve. All my critters now start in in flash seldom use the electric starter prime and flip
1 to 3 times,Now learning curves Evolution glow engines, have eliminated that you hardly have to adjust the needle valve
they are just about idiot proof. (what does that tell you) My funiest event was about a month ago when just before my OS10 started a guy came over and
commented "you forgot to attach the battery to the glow plug" Just as he said it of course it started and then asked "what is it?"
He had never seen or heard of a model diesel, turned out to be a nice guy and was quite impressed with engine and the quiet
non screaming flight, my next project is something to put my irvine 15XR conversion in it cranks 15000 now and more to come
br dropping the prop diameter an inch I just have to have one diesel that will burn up the sky at 17000 or so on a quickie something
that wou;d turn a few heads in the glow community martin

peterburford

Interesting replies.
I had not browsed a model shop in many years. There was not one diesel to be had and fuel would have to be ordered in.
Maybe Jim has it correct? Diesels are not more popular because they are not.
Sure, diesels can have their operating issues, but so do glows have different ones. Diesels are more exacting and costly to manufacture well, but demand and supply would minimise that. (Castor on the plane, -- well --)
When we manufactured Taipan in Australia, we competed with diesels from UK and glows from USA. We produced both on the same machinery to the same standard. Gordon likes diesels. In the early years we certainly made more diesels than glows. They were the beginners' choice because they were simple and easy to use. Kit manufacturers made planes to suit and shops stocked fuel. It all went around 'till we stopped.
Glows are much more suited to high volume production and profit, so I can't see a popular change being likely.
Peter

AMB

OK guys will eating supper tonight was flipping through a couple of issues of fly RC , Two things struck me one was a conversion of
a glow sig 40 to electric power using an AXI brushless motor and the 2nd was Hobby Lobbys ad for the same turns out this motor
will turn a 14x9 prop at 6800 to 7500 rpm and the ad pointed out why try and turn a small prop at high rpm trying to reach 90mph (glow 40)
in a plane rated to fly 60, Does this sound familiar I think our diesels do this all the time big props lots of torque lower rpms we may be closer with our diesels to the new large electrics than glow. also AXI brushless $159 controller $100 2 batteries (and you made need 4
charging 2 while flying 2 @ $60 so $240 for batteries $159 for motor $100 for controller I think that adds up to about $500, with this
maybe diesel will be more popular for that kind of bucks will wipe off the airplane martin
and yes this the diesels have been around for years
and not knocking electric have a ripmax T tail coyote with a 400 ferrite lots of fun flys at the electric site with my tt10 diesel conversion
in my 54" cub that quiet too (the cub gets lonely with all those electrics around it)

FrancisPerson

The Reasons

“I can’t buy it from Tower�
“If Diesel was so good then how come so and so does not use them�
“Its different�
“I only buy OS engines�
“If Diesel was any good then Tower would sell it�
“It didn’t come with my BARF (ARF)�

Francis

AMB

Good points Francis, VWs have diesel availabilty how many do you see around?? similar situation martin

docsteam

Interesting point about the VW diesels, DieselDan. I had a VW Rabbit back in the mid-80's, and it was the most fuel efficient and least repair intensive car I've ever owned. It gave a consistent 50mpg, and cost just $500 in repairs over 150,000 miles. I've often wondered why they didn't sell as well as the gas powered version. I'd buy another one today if they were available.

Ron

maxtenet

Vw does indeed make a Jetta turbodiesel available at your local showroom!

Max

AMB

So unpopular I just ordered another irvine 36 from Sheldons don't where they
find them, but makes one heck of conversion (see post) it will be converted
think is 3 left martin

BuzzBomber

My Feedback: (4)

Not trying to hijack this here thread, but another comment on VW diesels. I drove to work in one today. Last October, I bought a 1984 2 door rabbit diesel, because 10 years ago, I had an '82 gas rabbit hopped up for autocross (though I never worked up the courage to actually enter racing). I loved that car, and bought this one to relive the memories......at the time, I thought the diesel was going to get swapped out, but then I got used to it. Now, I want a new VW diesel. These things are great--180,000 miles and not a complaint from the engine. Of course, it smokes a bit under hard acceleration, but I look at that as a "value added" feature--after all, James Bond's car has a smokescreen, too! But, back on topic, I've been sitting on the fence for a while concerning diesels. I've been running mostly electrics for a few years now, and I'm one of those "stupid" guys who can't seem to run a glow engine right. I think part of my issues come from running engines that are old, tired, and ornery. But, I digress again. The "finicky" factor isn't what has been holding me back from making the diesel jump so far, it's the idea of buying more different stuff. See, with electrics, I wind up with battery packs that outlive their intended motors and airframes and just sit useless (I have about 5 little 150 maH nicad packs from IPS size planes just lying around) and with glow, it seems that I've got a different fuel for every engine (okay, okay so maybe it's a little much to expect a .15 car engine, norvels, and a fox .40 to all be happy on the same fuel), so I wonder what I'll need just for diesel. I'll have to convert fuel tank stoppers, get tygon fuel line, buy a cooler to store fuel, etc. Please tell me I'm wrong so I can call Eric Clutton and just order that dang PAW 55 I've been coveting.

fiery

My Feedback: (2)

Go on Matt, order that little PAW ... you know you want to!

Mr Clutton can supply fuel that it will thrive on.

Get a yard of narrow bore tygon from your local garden appliance service shop. Then, a new stopper for your tank (or buy a Hayes tank from Tower), and you're in the "oily rag society"

I have an Irvine .40D NIB that is calling me ... I have used diesels since I was a nipper
but haven't run one since I sold my PAW collection a few years ago here ( I miss my PAW .40 TBR blackhead - the best
R/C engine they make! It made way for the Irvine .40D).

I also have a well used Irvine .20D with a spare gl#w head and an MVVS .61 which came with a factory diesel head but which I have only ever run as a gl#w (shame on me).

I should stop flying these 1/4 scale gas jobs, and just lurking here, and get back to some good old fashioned low-stress diesel fun.

fiery

C_Watkins

My Feedback: (10)

1) Can't see one at the LHS or at the field. (And I rarely buy what I haven't seen firsthand)
2) Can't walk into the LHS and buy diesel fuel.



As for the smell, sound, learning curve, etc... I'd be happy to put up with any of those things.
I'd like to try a diesel once, just for the heck of it. The one diesel person I'd read about in my life,
I left messages on his answering machine twice in a month's time, and to this day never got a return call.
It irked me, just a tad, that the guy didn't have a toll free number, and I'd wasted my dime twice, too.
I finally decided it just wasn't meant for me to run a diesel. (I had called to inquire about conversion heads)

FrancisPerson

My friend always buys OS engines from Tower.

Francis

Dan Vincent

Chris,

If you'd like to try a diesel, just buy one. A PAW is usually a good investment. They handle easily and Clutton has fuel for them.

Atlanta used to have many hobby shops, surely someone in Atlanta uses diesels.

I bought a McCoy .049 diesel in 1954 or so and taught myself how to start and adjust it. Then I picked up several other diesels like the English ED Bee 1.0cc, OK Cub .049 & .075, McCoy .09 diesel, then Mills and others. They all ran.

There's plenty of good advice here but if you follow Clutton's directions you should be fine.

gcb

If you REALLY want to know about diesel engines and fuels, also order Eric Clutton's "Dr. Diesel's Diary" along with the PAW and fuel.
Wish I had a copy back in the 1950's...would have saved a lot of aching and sometimes bloody fingers.

George