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Substitute for Ether

Old 08-01-2006, 02:40 PM
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Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Andy,

There was someone in another post who mentioned using BBQ lighter fluid instead of kerosene as the main ingredient in his fuel blend. Have you considered trying this? I wonder of there's an even easier to find diesel blend out there.

George
Old 08-01-2006, 04:19 PM
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Default RE: Substitute for Ether

No problem.. I am allways using the BBQ lighter fluid to my dieselengines and give less smoke ,nice to run. The BBQ lighter fluid are near same as kerosene,cheap to buy in shop. Cost from 0.8$ to 1.6$ per litre depent on brands (in Norway)..

Jens Eirik
Old 08-02-2006, 01:02 AM
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Default RE: Substitute for Ether

This thread has me intrigued.

I'd really like to know if traditional diesels like PAWs and the Russian MARZ 2.5 can be made to run on no-ether fuel.

I have successfully run my PAW 19DS on as little as 10% ether and 25% castor, with very good performance and no overheating. Starting with 10% ether was just as easy as with the recommended fuel mix.

Ether is so expensive here in Australia that any alternative, or doing without entirely, would be most welcome. Anyone got any ideas for alternative low flashpoint volatiles (like [link=http://www.diggersaust.com.au/files/Shellite.pdf]Shellite[/link], suggested to me by a work-mate who is into hill-climb and messes with funny fuels) which could be used as an additive, or priming for starting.

cheers,
Colin
Re-learning control-line in Brisbane, Australia
Old 08-02-2006, 07:30 AM
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Default RE: Substitute for Ether


ORIGINAL: SERCEFLYER

Andy,

Thanks again for doing all this work. So, where did you get the Amsoil cetane improver? What other brands of starter fluids work as prime? Did you ever try using a spring starter instead of an electric?

Thanks
Serceflyer,

Sorry, missed your other questions.

Virtually any brand quickstart will work, in your prime OR your tank, I've tried two others, house brands from local automotive outlets. If NO ether will run, then ANY amount will help. JD is 80%, if you had a brand that was only 50%, no problem, as long as you get her started and running. It's just a matter of adjusting for what you got in your particular brand, even though you don't know what that is.

Spring starter? Yes, as shown here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af4dQNa60_w

The audio is out of sync but note that I started this Norvel by priming only by way of blocking the muffler to get fuel to the carb. This, of course, was on my then standard fuel of 40 ether, 40 kerosene and 20 castor with 2% Amsoil. This was an .074 so I had to adapt a Norvel .06 spring starter. Because of the bend I had to put into it to secure it to the mount, the spring failed eventually and I haven't had a chance to install another with a proper soft bend in the right location. So, I haven't had a chance to start and run a no ether fuel using the spring starter but look how easily it started with normal fuel. I'm speculating that, as the engine starts with a high ether prime on the electric starter, it should be fine on the spring.
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Old 08-02-2006, 07:34 AM
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Default RE: Substitute for Ether

George, Jens,

I picked up a can of B'bcue lighter fluid yesterday. I asked the clerk what was in it and he didn't know so I hesitated using it. But if it's kerosene of a clean grade, that's good. May run cleaner, cooler, faster,,, never know till you try it,, which I will.
Old 08-02-2006, 07:53 AM
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Default RE: Substitute for Ether


ORIGINAL: colingw

This thread has me intrigued.

I'd really like to know if traditional diesels like PAWs and the Russian MARZ 2.5 can be made to run on no-ether fuel.

I have successfully run my PAW 19DS on as little as 10% ether and 25% castor, with very good performance and no overheating. Starting with 10% ether was just as easy as with the recommended fuel mix.

Ether is so expensive here in Australia that any alternative, or doing without entirely, would be most welcome. Anyone got any ideas for alternative low flashpoint volatiles (like [link=http://www.diggersaust.com.au/files/Shellite.pdf]Shellite[/link], suggested to me by a work-mate who is into hill-climb and messes with funny fuels) which could be used as an additive, or priming for starting.

cheers,
Colin
Re-learning control-line in Brisbane, Australia
Colin,

I'm hoping that this thread will prompt a whole bunch of us stinky power guys to experiment with their various engine brands and report back on this thread. Power gain or loss, compression and carb settings, throttling, etc. A data base like this would be most useful to the community, I think. In the meantime, I got my PAW mounted last night (2 AM) and will run it today. The Frog is next.

AS your experience shows, only a little or even no ether can be run. It's getting them started that's at issue. We fly in the winter in Canada and that means temps at or below freezing. Typically, I bring a small butane field torch thingy to warm up my glows for a summer like start. This COULD work for diesels on no ether fuel but you bloody well have to be careful, of course. I'm going to test the no ether fuel in the winter, naturally and I suspect that I'll need the torch.

Ether is not only expensive here but impossible to get. Surely you have Diesel truck Quickstart? With all those convoys crossing the outback all year long? But you make a good point. I tried acetone in the fuel with poor results but maybe that or another volatile (Shellite) would work in your prime bottle.
Old 08-02-2006, 08:20 AM
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Default RE: Substitute for Ether


[/quote]


K&S sells small 1/16, 3/32 and 1/8 diameter copper tubing. If need be I can pop some in the mail for you, the local hobby stores have it in stock.

I thought about the water jacket or marine type cooling head as well, certainly a possibility. Or do like many did many years ago before the manufacturers made the marine heads, wrap a copper tube round the head (I think Octra may have marketed one line that).

However, if you cool the engine too much with one of these heads or jackets, might that not have a detrimental effect on the idle??

cheers, Graham

[/quote]


Many thanks Graham, but I'm headed to Sudbury for the weekend and the shop there just told me they'll be putting some of the 1/8th aside for me.

How cool our engines, (diesel of glow) can be run is a good question. I read the other forums a bit and the car guys use a temperature gauge to tune their needle valves. These are laser devices and their accuracy is suspect in some quarters. So, many just tune by ear and by running the car on a stretch at high speed. For the longest time, we were told that 1/2As throttle poorly because, among other things, they run too cool. The math may be correct but in the real world, I tested the notion and it doesn't seem to hold. You can see what I mean here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-uvAb-vQgM

And here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwWz9Liv81g

In the second video, we have an engine converted to rear exhaust and idling at 1.5K lower than is typically needed in a plane. It took a while for the ice cube to affect the idle. Later runs showed that a little tweaking of the idle mixture helped prolong the idle. Hotter or cooler running will affect the compression setting and THIS will affect where your main needle will be and this can affect your idle setting unless you have a means to adjust it. Adjusting the idle is not provided for on PAWs and the like. I can't imagine why, I've added the feature and it helps a great deal.

Old 08-02-2006, 08:21 AM
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Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Shellite is known as white gas or Coleman fuel in other parts of the world. Results should be similar to charcoal lighter fluid. It can substitute for kerosene but not ether. Charcoal lighter fluid is usually some form of naptha.

Greg
Old 08-02-2006, 08:30 AM
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ORIGINAL: gkamysz

Shellite is known as white gas or Coleman fuel in other parts of the world. Results should be similar to charcoal lighter fluid. It can substitute for kerosene but not ether. Charcoal lighter fluid is usually some form of naptha.

Greg

Thanks Greg,

Got a little of both and one more that is going to be interesting, a gelled, charcoal lighter product. [X(]
Old 08-02-2006, 08:42 AM
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Default RE: Substitute for Ether

I think the question for 1/2A glow engines is how much cooling is due to radiation/convection and how much is due to fuel vaporization. A glow engine gets 2-3 times the cooling from fuel vaporization compared to a diesel or gasoline engine. This is the reason you can't run a FS-120 with spark ignition on gasoline. You have to run methanol or it will overheat.

Greg
Old 08-02-2006, 09:33 AM
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Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Greg,

That's a good point. But the assertion that 1/2A glows run too cool compared to larger glows comes from the math that says that the cooling fin area as a proportion of displacement is far greater, the smaller the engine, especially with 1/2A. And this is the reason given for poor throttling on the really little guys.

It seems that with diesel, fuel vapourization must be a large factor too, the more ether you run. Kind of like more ether is better but vapourization makes it run cooler, thereby, to a degree, negating the ether's beneficial effects. As in 10% may be good but 20% adds to vapourization cooling and negating the extra ether's benefits. So you add more ether and the cycle repeats. It may be that a much lower ether content can be a sweet spot,,, depending on the engine size. Going to have to get to that TD .010 diesel head soon, I guess.

Brings to mind, has anyone tried blending gas and kerosene? The MSDS for Shellite showed that it was a blend of paraffins (kerosene) and naphthlene (their spelling) with .5% benzene.

Well wait. This reminds me that two years ago, I made up a diesel head for the TD .020 for Raj. I had thoroughly washed the engine parts in soap and water and immediately drowned them in WD40. After assembling the engine and head, I flipped a few times and got a burst. It was a fluke, it seems, I primed with more WD40 and it never happened again.

Arright, I'm off to run the PAW on just kero. Got me a backup crank, just in case.
Old 08-02-2006, 11:00 AM
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Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Andy,

This has got to be one of the best threads ever on RCU. Thanks a lot for letting us see the entire R&D process as you tackle this problem. I don't run diesels, yet-- but I will. This thread has made me even more interested.

George
Old 08-02-2006, 01:11 PM
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Default RE: Substitute for Ether

I made a mistake. The 2-3 times is based on the latent heat of vaporization and doesn't consider the fact that it also flows twice as much methanol per cycle. A glow engine is very dependent on fuel consumption for cooling. Team race engines have substantial(compared to glow) cooling fins. They also use integral liners like the Norvels for a direct heat path. But something in a similar class like the MVVS 2.5 has very little fin area.

It's a tricky game. I think only testing will give us the answers we are looking for.

Blending gasoline with kerosene will substantially reduce the mixture's cetane rating. I don't think this is a good idea.

Greg
Old 08-02-2006, 06:00 PM
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ORIGINAL: 1705493-AndyW


Colin,

I'm hoping that this thread will prompt a whole bunch of us stinky power guys to experiment with their various engine brands and report back on this thread. Power gain or loss, compression and carb settings, throttling, etc. A data base like this would be most useful to the community, I think. In the meantime, I got my PAW mounted last night (2 AM) and will run it today. The Frog is next.

AS your experience shows, only a little or even no ether can be run. It's getting them started that's at issue. We fly in the winter in Canada and that means temps at or below freezing. Typically, I bring a small butane field torch thingy to warm up my glows for a summer like start. This COULD work for diesels on no ether fuel but you bloody well have to be careful, of course. I'm going to test the no ether fuel in the winter, naturally and I suspect that I'll need the torch.

Ether is not only expensive here but impossible to get. Surely you have Diesel truck Quickstart? With all those convoys crossing the outback all year long? But you make a good point. I tried acetone in the fuel with poor results but maybe that or another volatile (Shellite) would work in your prime bottle.
EDIT: fix up broken quoting.

I never went below 10%, but on 10% the engine (PAW 19DS, plain bearing) didn't seem to behave any different to with the normal 30% ether fuel. Starts in winter (which means about 10C where I grew up) were easy. Here in Brisbane cold weather is a non-issue - its mid winter now, blue skies with a forecast maximum of 23C.

Being a control-line flyer I'm only interested in how well it will run at peak; no throttle, hence fuel mixes which won't idle reliably are not a problem. That probably opens up some options which R/C guys wouldn't have. I do have one diesel with a throttle - PAW .049 R/C, so can experiment with that.

As you guessed, we can get diesel quick start (John Deere or whatever) easily. Ether is becoming a problem due to grubs using it in their crystal meth labs, but at this stage is still available but expensive. I don't normally run DII because Isopropyl Nitrate is hard to get. Only other thing in my fuel is 1% REDEX - it just seems to run smoother with it.
Old 08-02-2006, 08:59 PM
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ORIGINAL: SERCEFLYER

Andy,

This has got to be one of the best threads ever on RCU. Thanks a lot for letting us see the entire R&D process as you tackle this problem. I don't run diesels, yet-- but I will. This thread has made me even more interested.

George

George,

I know you love the little buggers and you won't be sorry for the trying. I caution you though, they ARE addictive. In the past, fuel was ALWAYS the problem. The latest runs may even have us dispensing with the need for ANY ether. More YouTube posts to come.
Old 08-02-2006, 09:05 PM
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Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Colin,

Ether may go the way of the Dodo if the runs on my own PAW are any indication. We may not even need ether in the prime. But you're right, throttling can be an issue on pure kero. More to come.

Old 08-02-2006, 09:27 PM
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ORIGINAL: 1705493-AndyW

Colin,

Ether may go the way of the Dodo if the runs on my own PAW are any indication. We may not even need ether in the prime. But you're right, throttling can be an issue on pure kero. More to come.

Andy,

What was the fuel mix, and what was the starting like? Any special starter mixture, or an electric starter?

Ok, this has me fired up to try a fuel with say 25% castor, 1% redex, 1% DII and the rest automotive diesel fuel. Maybe make some priming fluid with john deere starter, or even just acetone. (This will just be bench running, I don't have a plane for the PAW yet, having just re-started control-line after a 20 year absence. I'm building my first planes in 20 years at present, but using glows, a Cox .049 in a 1/2A 'Stunt Chimp' and an OS MAX-III .15 in a Brodak JR Flite Streak respectively.)

I have a feeling the PAW 19 may run and start better on this than the MARZ 2.5s and the PAW 80 (.049). (My MARZes and the little PAW aren't broken in yet - the 19 is relatively high hours and was always a two flick starter even on 10% ether).

One additional data point: my flying buddy in the old days ran a PAW 249DS. I seem to remember it was a bit cranky starting on the 10% fuel I made up, but he tended to run a small prop at high revs where I had a 9x6 or even a 9.5x6 on my .19.

By the way - I'm so glad I found this forum (pointed out to me by someone on www.clstunt.com ). Great to find plenty of other 'oily hands' out there.
Old 08-02-2006, 10:59 PM
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Default RE: Substitute for Ether

OK gang, the word is out. Ether is not required at all to run OR start diesel engines, not even traditional, steel iron units. All that is needed is a good cetane booster like Amsoil, a higher compression setting and a starter.

The latest runs can be seen here.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R9YL_KPRYE


The PAW was put to the test with various combinations of fuel, cold and warm starts, ether based, no ether and best of all, no ether with a compression setting LOWER than that WITH ether. A real good thing, less wear and tear. THAT mix was a full 10% Amsoil cetane booster with 20% oil and 70% kerosene. No ether anywhere in sight and that means a very safe fuel, no loss of volatiles, no need for metal cans, special fuel handling etc.

This one test on one afternoon does not cover all possibilities but it does indicate that with a bit of experimentation, we may have available something that is very new and very desirable in our little stinky powerplants.

Kelly McCombs has provided lots of relevant information and explanation for the results I have been getting with these trials. The BIG suggestion he made was to boost the Amsoil to very much normally NOT recommended levels. I've come to trust Kelly's judgement and knowledge and once again, his input has advanced our progress.

And if any recall our last discussion on this last year, we had learned of DStar Engineering, makers of MAVs, who had a small diesel that ran on all kero. As it turns out, they use a glow plug for a warm up to allow for a pure kero start. Pretty much what we have proved out here and not much different from the device I have under wraps.

Kelly has alerted me to the availability of Cool Power OIL, available from Morgan. Yes, castor is the gold standard for some, including me, but I've been running Cool Power glow fuel in my 1/2As and they really like it. Very good power in addition to giving a bit of an edge in throttling over some other brands. Going to get some and do some testing. Neat.

Thanks bunches Kelly. My cut and paste has gone screwy just like my email outbox. Got me a pathogen of some sort it seems. Will try and copy and paste your insightful comments at a later date.
Old 08-02-2006, 11:36 PM
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Default RE: Substitute for Ether

ORIGINAL: colingw

ORIGINAL: 1705493-AndyW

Colin,

Ether may go the way of the Dodo if the runs on my own PAW are any indication. We may not even need ether in the prime. But you're right, throttling can be an issue on pure kero. More to come.

Andy,

What was the fuel mix, and what was the starting like? Any special starter mixture, or an electric starter?

OK, this has me fired up to try a fuel with say 25% castor, 1% redex, 1% DII and the rest automotive diesel fuel. Maybe make some priming fluid with john deere starter, or even just acetone. (This will just be bench running, I don't have a plane for the PAW yet, having just re-started control-line after a 20 year absence. I'm building my first planes in 20 years at present, but using glows, a Cox .049 in a 1/2A 'Stunt Chimp' and an OS MAX-III .15 in a Brodak JR Flite Streak respectively.)

I have a feeling the PAW 19 may run and start better on this than the MARZ 2.5s and the PAW 80 (.049). (My MARZes and the little PAW aren't broken in yet - the 19 is relatively high hours and was always a two flick starter even on 10% ether).

One additional data point: my flying buddy in the old days ran a PAW 249DS. I seem to remember it was a bit cranky starting on the 10% fuel I made up, but he tended to run a small prop at high revs where I had a 9x6 or even a 9.5x6 on my .19.

By the way - I'm so glad I found this forum (pointed out to me by someone on www.clstunt.com ). Great to find plenty of other 'oily hands' out there.

Colin,

By now, all the PAW videos are posted and should fill you in.

Acetone, as Kelly has informed, was going in the wrong direction. I was looking at it as a highly volatile fluid but its cetane rating stinks. It's actually an octane booster used sometimes to smooth out glow power runs. Cetane and octane are like yin and yang.

Can we assume that Redex and D11 are cetane boosters? These are down under products? If so, as my preceding post indicates, you may have good luck at 5 or even 10% concentrations.

You're right mostly, that the bigger the engine, the less fussy they are but for the small ones, it's just a matter of getting the mixtures right at all throttle settings.

But wait, your buddy ran "small" props on his .19? And you ran "big" props? A 9 X 6 is common for a glow .19. I'm remiss in not mentioning that, typically, to push the diesel concept, I run .06's like the PAW and Norvels on 8 X 4 props. And they like that a lot. Are you running diesel WAY too fast? My .15 was tested with a 10 X 4 and sounded so good, that it WILL be the prop I'll use on my small Pitts.
Old 08-02-2006, 11:53 PM
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Default RE: Substitute for Ether

OK, cut and paste now working. The following from Kelly McCombs.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++


Acetone would not be good since it comes off the top of the distillation
column. You want fuels that come off the lowest levels of the column.
Acetone is a ketone, which is one of the very last hydrocarbons to condense
in the tower. This is telling you that its molecular structure is very
strong and active. You want lazy and easy. Kerosene, camper stove fuel,
lighter fluid, are lazy and easy as far as the molecules are concerned.
During compression you want loosely bound hydrogen molecules to release from
the carbon structure of the molecule. Acetone has a very
low Cetane, but high Octane. It works well to smooth the combustion within
glow engines for some reason unknown to me. I'm sure it is a complex
interaction with the methanol molecule so it may be of use in a straight
methanol and oil fuel.


My suggestion would be to try charcoal lighter fuel, and or camper stove
fuel with at least 5 percent (or much more) of Amsoil Cetane booster.
Remember the Cetane booster helps to lower the energy require to stripe off
and create the free hydrogen radicals required for diesel operation. Other
suggestions would be kerosene as you are currently using but increase the
Cetane booster in steps to discover the best combination of Kero to booster,
remember one link I sent you that the boys in Europe were using 50% booster
and 50% Kero?? It was racing fuel!!! I have used deodorized lamp fuel with
good success to rid the fuel of bad smells. I use camper stove fuel in the
gas engine exclusively since there is almost no odor, but this leads me to
believe that it may be too low of a Cetane for your use. I'm very interested
in these test your are conducting.

I'm sending this to you in private mail so that you can move forward
quickly and sound as one voice on RCU. I don't have the time anymore
to engage so heavily in the forums these days,

Do you remember how we discussed the D_Star generator:
http://www.dstarengineering.com/news...tors_main.html

I found, hidden in one of their documents, that they have a glow plug within
the engine head. It is required to be energized for over one minute before
the starter/generator spins the engine into service. They also have employed
a computer based fuel control system to monitor fuel flow. These matters are
outside of our design considerations, but it shows how critical fuel
management is with these engines.

My suggestion would be to make a heavy steel "iron" with a handle that would
be preheated with a propane torch, then lowered onto the glow head / diesel
head and allowed to transfer the heat to the engine. I would also leave this
on the engine during the starting cycle to allow for quick startup. I
envision this iron to be a steel cap with an insulated rod out the side to
act as a handle. Heat it up very hot and lower it onto the engine. This
works well since I tried this to allow me to start my new ABC engine with
out fear of burning up my model at the model field where I could not run my
heat gun with electricity. I used a chunk of steel conduit pipe and a drill
rod. It was easy and quick, plus it does not add any weight. I just heated
the crap out the chunk of steel and left it on the engine for about 1
minute, at this point the prop turned with ease and it fired right up. I
used this for about the first 20 starts and the engine is one of my best
now. A Tower .75.

I wanted to pass on to you that I've had good success using 15% Cool Power
synthetic oil and straight methanol in my Norvel .074. I have not had time
to try any diesel test using your nicely machined head, but I'm using your
spinner and the spring with great success!!!

I also have one more test to report. I ran the Tower .75 engine on a mixture
of 15% Cool Power OIL and the rest was a 50/50 mixture of methanol and Camper
Stove fuel. The needles were a bit more sensitive and it ran much hotter,
but boy it gets good gas mileage, I have not flown this mixture, just bench
run the engine. I got the same RPM out of this mixture as just oil and
methanol. I don't use any nitro now, with the exception of the Norvel
sometimes for a bit more power.

My TT. .46 engine loves Cool Power 15% OIL and methanol. I use an OS 3A glow
plug and one size larger prop. Just as good as 15% nitro fuel and it sure is
cheap at about $7.50 a gallon total cost. I had to give the engine the Hot
Antifreeze treatment to clean out all of the #%*&#@ castor oil. I hate
castor oil with a passion. It completely gooses up the engine.

One other suggestion. Try adding just a small amount of straight antifreeze,
new clean stuff from a new jug, to your glow fuel. It should burn and clean
out the gum from any castor oil. The crock pot / antifreeze thing works
wonders. My TT. 46 would not hold an idle and the needles were extremely
sensitive. After the clean up it works perfect. The gum from castor closes
the tolerances of the engine requiring so much power to overcome the drag that
the carb can no longer meter fuel at the lower end. This forces the user to open the
low-end needle excessively and so the engine metering system then is out
of whack.

Give the simple burning of the antifreeze a try, I bet it works better than
using fuel injection cleaner like Clarence Lee suggest or the gun cleaner I
mentioned.

The hotspot idea is still the best, and I would encourage you to consider
this path also. I was able to machine off the outer dimensions of a standard
glow plug and it still works. This would allow you to just press fit it into
your contra piston.

The hot iron is much easier and does not require a battery, plus it allows
you to vary the amount of added heat.
Old 08-03-2006, 12:18 AM
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Default RE: Substitute for Ether

More from Kelly. Thanks bunches man.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++


Normal 50 wt motor oil is an ashless, dispersant, detergent oil. The additive
package within the oil greatly reduces the possibility of the oil "burning"
within the combustion chamber to prevent the accumulation of carbon
deposits. This fact is extremely critical in general aviation engines!! Auto
oil does not have as much ashless dispersant as Aviation oil which may be as
much as 15% of the oil volume. This is one reason aircraft engines seem to burn so
much oil, the additive package evaporates with use. Thus you must change the
oil every 6-month, just like your car manufactures recommends since it
occurs in cars to a lesser extent, or add more oil as the case with an aircraft
engine

If carbon is allowed to form within the combustion chamber it can glow by way of a
"hotspot" and this will cause extreme pre-ignition. This is a subject that is common
knowledge within the general aviation community. We teach A&P Students that
common automotive engine oil does not contain the correct additive packages
required for air-cooled aircraft engines and the subsequent consequences of
using the wrong engine oil is "engine failure and loss of life". General
aviation engines consume a great deal of oil and up to 1 qt per hour of
operation is allowed, but 1 qt per 5 hours is about normal, so you can see
what I mean.

This additive package is very volatile and contains sacrificial colloidal
metal particles and well as the ashless dispersant to flush carbon and
suppress burning of the fuel. The metal partials are consumed by the
sulfuric and other acids formed by fuel combustion thus saving the bearings
from Worm-hole failure. These additives will increase the life of an engine
by 3X. Engines went from an overhaul period of 1000 hours to 3000 with the
advent of ashless oils!! Wow. This occurred during WW II.

One more odd fact: Automotive antifreeze has sacrificial colloidal metal
particles too. These metals are consumed by oxidation during normal use. You
must change your automotive antifreeze or add a package sold by people like
the Preston Company occasionally. Of course they don't have ashless
dispersants in antifreeze but it illustrates the concept.

If you purchase "non-detergent oil" then it may work quite well.

Check out "Model Aviation" magazine for this month August 2006. Page 87. It
is nicely coincidental that this article came out at just this time. Mr. Wagner
talked about the fact that his PAWs would not run after he used Marvel
Mystery Oil as an after run oil. He noted that it contains very active
"anti-oxidant" additives. Which is very true. ATF would also be a bad
choice. We should all use straight (non detergent) motor oil as an after-run
oil in ball bearing engines for diesel use. After he cleaned the engines
with WD 40 they ran fine!!!

I bet Cool Power OIL may work well. It costs $7.50 per qt. Use 15%,-- 18% max.

I forgot to tell you why I used 15 % Cool Power OIL to mix the 50/50
mixture of camper stove fuel with methanol alcohol. It will hold these two
together where not many oils will work well. My Tower .75 ran well on this
mixture, but it was HOT after bench running. Amsoil Saber oil will not do
the job for this mixture, Klotz 200 will work and perhaps Klotz 100 will
hold Alcohol and gas mixture together. Cool Power works the best for this
job. I love the Cool Power oil. The Green Stuff.

I think you'll have good luck with non-detergent oil and it will also act as
part of the fuel. Give them both a try. Castor oil sucks! It just mucks up
the engine. In Europe they don't use the stuff. I talked to an engineer at
Cool Power and he said they don't sell any castor oil mixtures in Europe
since few use the stuff across the pond. I agree. I'm sure many folks will
disagree with me on this issue, but I've had very good luck with Cool Power
OIL. Nothing but problems using castor over the long haul. It gums up the
engine at some point.

One more hotspot idea. You had a good idea to put the glow plug behind a
shield that was flexible to allow for minor compression adjustments, and to
keep the chamber volume small. I think this is the best overall idea. That
way you can preheat the engine with the glow plug and not have to seal the
contra piston, Just machine a very thin wall and install the glow plug on
top of the thin wall. That way you can twist the glow plug itself in some
manner. Perhaps just fit the glow plug into your contra piston with a very
thin wall and find some way to adjust the entire piston. I'm afraid the
volume of the glow chamber may lower your CR too much if glow plug is within
the chamber.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++

Kelly was the one that inspired me to try to make some sort of contra-piston device that could carry a glow plug. Developing a method of making your own turbo plug inserts has allowed me to take the plug threads OUT of the combustion chamber. The turbos also have quite a small cavity for the element so this will also help. A CP with a small trumpet shape has been made along with the usual flat bottom. Both will be tried on glow AND diesel.

I want to take my time with this one so it'll have to wait till I get a backlog of ideas out of the way first. More to come.
Old 08-03-2006, 12:52 AM
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Default RE: Substitute for Ether

ORIGINAL: 1705493-AndyW

ORIGINAL: colingw

ORIGINAL: 1705493-AndyW

Colin,

Ether may go the way of the Dodo if the runs on my own PAW are any indication. We may not even need ether in the prime. But you're right, throttling can be an issue on pure kero. More to come.

Andy,

What was the fuel mix, and what was the starting like? Any special starter mixture, or an electric starter?

OK, this has me fired up to try a fuel with say 25% castor, 1% redex, 1% DII and the rest automotive diesel fuel. Maybe make some priming fluid with john deere starter, or even just acetone. (This will just be bench running, I don't have a plane for the PAW yet, having just re-started control-line after a 20 year absence. I'm building my first planes in 20 years at present, but using glows, a Cox .049 in a 1/2A 'Stunt Chimp' and an OS MAX-III .15 in a Brodak JR Flite Streak respectively.)

I have a feeling the PAW 19 may run and start better on this than the MARZ 2.5s and the PAW 80 (.049). (My MARZes and the little PAW aren't broken in yet - the 19 is relatively high hours and was always a two flick starter even on 10% ether).

One additional data point: my flying buddy in the old days ran a PAW 249DS. I seem to remember it was a bit cranky starting on the 10% fuel I made up, but he tended to run a small prop at high revs where I had a 9x6 or even a 9.5x6 on my .19.

By the way - I'm so glad I found this forum (pointed out to me by someone on www.clstunt.com ). Great to find plenty of other 'oily hands' out there.

Colin,

By now, all the PAW videos are posted and should fill you in.

Acetone, as Kelly has informed, was going in the wrong direction. I was looking at it as a highly volatile fluid but its cetane rating stinks. It's actually an octane booster used sometimes to smooth out glow power runs. Cetane and octane are like yin and yang.

Can we assume that Redex and D11 are cetane boosters? These are down under products? If so, as my preceding post indicates, you may have good luck at 5 or even 10% concentrations.

You're right mostly, that the bigger the engine, the less fussy they are but for the small ones, it's just a matter of getting the mixtures right at all throttle settings.

But wait, your buddy ran "small" props on his .19? And you ran "big" props? A 9 X 6 is common for a glow .19. I'm remiss in not mentioning that, typically, to push the diesel concept, I run .06's like the PAW and Norvels on 8 X 4 props. And they like that a lot. Are you running diesel WAY too fast? My .15 was tested with a 10 X 4 and sounded so good, that it WILL be the prop I'll use on my small Pitts.
Hi again Andy,

Redex is a (no longer available?) upper cylinder lubricant which was traditionally used as a fuel additive. I seem to get a smoother run and far less carbon build up when I use it, so I'm assuming it has some detergent action. It is fantastic for freeing up gummed up engines.

DII is an acronym for Diesel Ignition Improver, when I say that I mean Amyl Nitrate, Isopropyl Nitrate or whatever else is available.

For the plain bearing .19, PAW recommend 7x6 to 10x6. I was typically running at the upper end of that range with 9x6 or 9.5x6, sometimes 10x6 - all Master Airscrew. I'm thinking about a 10x4 or 10x5 APC may be ideal.

My mate had a 2.5cc 249DS, and definitely under-propped his, usually running an 8x4 or 8x6 tornado. It screamed! I reckon he should have been using at least a 9x4. He not only used smaller props than I did, he also used lighter ones which were somewhat flexible and would de-pitch at high revs. I definitely got far more out of my .19 on the bigger, heavier and more rigid master airscrews - first plane I had it in was rated for engines .19-.35, and was typically flown with something like a Fox or McCoy .35 - but my PAW 19 flew it with authority, no loss of line tension when overhead.

From memory my mate really used to wind the compression down and had to wind back to start, whereas my 19 would give a 2nd flick re-start on the running compression with the plane still right way up (engine inverted). Just fuel, choke and go. Again, his setup would never restart with the engine inverted, so he used to do this dodgy thing with holding the plane upside down on his lap, then flipping it with the engine running! I hated seeing him do that.

PAW say a 9x5 is the max for their .15, and and 8x4 for the .06. My small PAW is the original .049 80DS R/C, although I'll probably change it to a C/L venturi unless it ends up in a 3-line model.

Does anyone know what an Aussie equivalent of AMSOIL Cetane Booster would be, or can we get that here? The Aussie importer http://www.a1oils.com.au/ doesn't list their Cetane booster.

Possibly something like this would do the trick: http://www.redlineoil.com.au/product...#fueladditives
"85 Plus—Diesel Fuel Enhancer promote better fuel combustion and fuel system lubrication. Contains Cetane booster! Significantly reduces the effects of low sulphur and poor quality diesel including winter fuels, lengthening injector and pump life. Provides faster ignition, reduces engine knock, detonation, smoke & emissions, and improve engine efficiency. Extremely powerful high-temperature detergents clean injectors. Diesel fuel additives are EPA registered."

And do you think hand starting is going to be feasible? I have an electric starter, but am somewhat leery of using it on diesels (probably just an old wives tale).

--Col
Old 08-03-2006, 07:32 AM
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Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Hey Andy (and gang),

All very interesting reading indeed.

If you haven't had the chance to take a run out to the airport you might want to call ahead. The ESSO FBO phone is 268-7212.

Redex I believe is an overseas name for Marvel Mystery Oil or at least an equivalent. I have started to put a bit of MMO in my diesel mix lately and have noticed some of the old carbon comming out of an old PAW and others seem to run a bit cleaner. Wishful thinking maybe, I don't know. Especially in light of Kelly's comment on MMO in an earlier post.

Also, with Kerosene base fuels with no ether we not be able to use Castor oil. My understanding is that Castor oil and Kerosene are both soluble in Ether but caster oil alone will not go into solution with kerosene alone. So petroleum or synthetic oils would be our choices.

I read in some post somewhere about some team racers using very low ether fuel and highly nitrated fuels. Highly nitrated meaning high percent of amyl nitrate or iso-propyl nitrate or similar. So, the idea has been around for some time it has just taken Andy, his experiments and his willingness to exhchange ideas on the subject to spark this current spike of interest.

As to Andy's comment on the little engine starting and running briefly on WD40, that is not the first I have heard of that. I had tales related to me and I have witnessed on a couple of occasions were someone has been using WD40 as an after run treatment to have the engine start and run briefly on the WD40 when they have turned it over with a starter.

I did some reading yesterday. I am not an orgaic chemist so my understanding of the this subject is limited. However I did find some interesting bits.

WD40 is primarily what is refered to as Stoddard Solvent which includes other common names as White Spirits, Mineral Spirits, High Flash Naptha and is in between Naptha and Kerosene in properties.

Coleman stove fuel is pretty much naptha and the properties of these two are pretty much the same. Lighter fluid and charcoal starter fluid are also pretty much the same as naptha and Coleman stove fuel and have an Octane rating of around 50. Kerosene and diesel fuel have an Octane rating of around 15 to 25 and a Cetane rating of around 40 to 45. Jet-A would about the same as kerosene or diesel.

Interesting thing is that castor oil has a Cetane rating of around 40 to as high as 49. There are a log of vegetable oils that have a fairly high cetane rating as well ranging from around the high 20's to the high 40's. I have somewhere a posting (on SmallNET I think) from some time back (may have also been in a magazine as well) from someone in the UK on an etherless fuel where he used a vegetable oil as the base for his fuel. I will see if I can find it and re-post it.

I have an old PAW 2.49CC that I will try a few experiements on. I suspect however that being old and well used and with it's compression not being what it used to be, that it will not respond as readily to the low or no ether fuels as well as an engine with better compression. Which brings up another question, how to rejuvenate an old engine like this? A piston cylinder set is half the price of a new engine, throw in the cost of a con rod and I have to think that one over. However, would one of these PAW respond well chrome plating the cylinder? Never had that done to an engine and might be a good experiment to work through. Any comments on that ?

cheers, Graham in Embrun near Ottawa Canada
Old 08-03-2006, 08:29 AM
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Default RE: Substitute for Ether

Amsoil cetane booster is octyl nitrate, also called 2-ethyl hexil nitrate.

Andy this is extremely interesting. I wondered what high amounts of cetane booster would do as most things I've read said it has less effect with increased proportions(cetane number improves less with higher concentrations). I also read it is more effective when used with a fuel with a high cetane rating(cetane number improves more with similar concentration compared to lower rated fuel).

My local Amsoil guy is out of town until next week.

I also just found some info that says some Jet-A will have a cetane rating of 40 or higher, just like diesel. http://www.generalaviationnews.com/e...olumn&-nothing

Greg
Old 08-03-2006, 09:59 AM
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Colin,

Further down the Redline site is this,

RL2—Diesel Ignition Improver Concentrate—improves overall performance of diesel machinery, commercial haulage transporters, heavy industrial. Especially beneficial in mining applications. EPA registered & meets environmental standard 40 CFR 79:21. Cold warm-up particulate smoke in tests has been reduced by 59% after RL2 treatment. Increases efficiency, removes water, significantly lengthens injector and pump life, reduces rust.

Diesel Fuel Catalyst—Reduces wear up to 75% compared to untreated fuel. Boosts cetane by 3–7 numbers. Improves fuel efficiency, removes water, lubricates pumps and reduces engine knock. EPA emission tests-reductions 5% in HC, CO up to 17% and smoke up to 18%.

Two products that are worth considering. Also, I just emailed Amsoil AU to see if they offer a cetane booster.

I'm surprised at the prop numbers from PAW but they know their own engines.

Yes, exercise caution with an electric starter till you have the settings close enough for a run. The PAW is relatively easy to start by hand, in my experience. That means flick it by hand till you get those settings. From there, though, the starter is a good idea as long as you put only drops INTO THE INTAKE.

The killer with starters is priming at the exhaust. If you think about it, it makes sense. Priming the intake delivers fuel to the combustion chamber precisely the way it was intended, fully vapourized and ready to ignite. Priming at the exhaust delivers, raw, liquid fuel. No wonder you get hydraulic lock. What happens even when priming at the intake is that as you prime and try again a few times by hand, and don't get a start, most of the ether evaporates but the oil and kero piles up with each attempt. This dilutes your successive primes and things go downhill from there. This is where, in frustration, you take out the starter and proceed to injure the engine.

If you prime at the intake and use the starter from the get go, each attempt blows out most of the prime so that if you don't get a start the first time, not much is left to accumulate and give you a lock up. But if you haven't run diesels in a while, do the hand start thing first, just to be safe.

Graham,

Come to think of it, I've read of the same thing, that we use ether to allow the castor to blend with the kerosene. In my ignorance, I just went ahead and did it and it works. I'm using Canadian Tire store kerosene and Klotz Benol, pictured below. Also, is a closeup of the mix that has been standing overnight and hopefully, you can see that there's been no separation of ingredients. The jug I'm using for the mix once carried Sig castor and this too had no trouble blending with the kerosene so damnifino. I oughta work for Mythbusters, I guess.

Thanks for the chemistry info. Cetane ratings, YES. And oil having good cetane ratings? I bought some Soybean Butter (as in peanut butter) and the oil settled to the top. I drained that off and have let that sit for a month to allow more settling of any solids. I'll be trying that pretty soon. Cetane on soy oil? Used alone? Needs castor? Instead of castor? But if castor has a cetane rating comparable to kerosene, that explains why the castor mix was superior to the motor oil mix. Does motor oil have a cetane rating?

Oh, yes, the FBO. Called Esso at that number, talked to Mark. He said that IF I had an approved TANK, as in mounted to my truck, he'd be happy to dispense all I wanted. Otherwise, regs forbade it. I never did get a chance to ask about any fuel they take out to test. But what the heck, harware store kero seems to be just fine. Gonna try and pick up some truck diesel fuel today.

Greg,

Your comment further may explain why the castor mix was superior to the motor oil. If the high cetane rating of the oil enhances the action of a cetane booster,, there you go. Wonderful stuff.

But this was only one test on one afternoon. Will be testing all sizes of the Norvels on high cetane boost fuel. I just wish I had all the engines in a plane for flight testing. The .074 will have to do for now. NEXT year though.
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