I know that lots of stuff has been posted on this forum about Starter Fluid as a source for ether for our fuel and that J Deer brand is the brand of choice. What I was wondering was what other brands of SF have been used successfully with both conversions and straight diesel engines?

I am using Turtle wax start gas who are selling here in Norway, works well in model dieselengines. It has dietylether. See pic...

SG13,

...Depends on what you call successfully...

For many years I tried it with Red Seal THRUST starting "ether". Eventually I called the mfr and found it contained about 25% di-ethyl ether, and the rest except a trace of rust preventive, was n-heptane. That was before MSDS were so easily available, and possibly before they were required as widely as they are today.

Fuels blended from THRUST as ether required more compression to start and set. Heating varied quite a bit, often going too hot to sustain a steady run (I fly CLPA, so the engines are full blast up to around 8 minutes.) Response with ignition improver was even more varying.

So, yes, it worked, but not all that well.

With the John Deere starting ether, I had a problem recently, which I think I've resolved. Local altitude is around 5,000' above sea level, and in Southern Arizona, temperatures over 90° are common this time of year. Fresh mixed 3:3:2 (0 DII) fuel too easily drew foam and bubbles in the fuel line. Caused irregular running (benching a new diesel) as the vapor bubbles were most likely ether w/o oil or kerosene. The bubbles sucked up to the spraybar quicly, of course, but still not quickly enough to prevent that hiccoughing. The next day or so, this tendency vanished.

I figure that some very volatile content in the ether portion was drawn to vapor at the reduced pressure in the line to the spraybar for running as suction feed. Muffler pressure reduced the tendency, and removing a screen filter in the line to the spraybar also helped. When the condition was first noted, the big bubbles were in the line up to the filter, and from the filter on, it looked more like a faucet aerator stream. ...The resistance increase due the obstruction at the filter's screen? A drop or two of Armor-All didn't seem to do much.

So, in future, I plan to let my home-brewed fuels (based on John Deere) 'age' a few days before use. And, where possible, to use muffler pressure to keep pressure on the fuel a bit above "ambient."

I'm not sure about this but this is what I think about JD fluid. The MSDS says there is no heptane. This is good. There might be some heavy hydrotreated something or another upper cylinder lubricant(oil). That's fine too as it isn't much. The propellant is CO2. I'm not sure if CO2 dissolves in ether the way it does in water but that might be what you saw.

Diethyl ether is diethyl ether so there isn't a "more volatile" version of it. But ether does boil at 94°F. Add in your altitude and carb suction and that will decrease. So it might be that it was just boiling.

Ugo

What is the preferred method of "decanting" the ether from an aerosol can of starter fluid?

I imagine there must be some safety concerns ...

FIERY,
Put the can in the freezer overnight , then hold it useing a rag (to both stop your hands freezing and insulate the can from you), inverted , depress the button to let the propellent out. I then use a can opener to cut the base off the can, then pour into your fuel/holding container.
quick n easy
Stewart

Thanks!

ugo

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Tomorrow someone could invent a drug making process that heavily depends upon the use of tap water. What then? Do we ban tap water?

Banning the ingredients needed for many processes, just because someone "might" make illicit drugs is the same type of fouled logic that people use to ban guns. It is flawed, does not work and it causes unnecessary hardship upon average folks using these products for legal purposes in our societies. It is time that these types of laws were repealed and we all got back to living under the addage, "presumed innocent until proven guilty". Crooks will be crooks. The justice system is there to handle those commiting unlawful acts. Punishing average people just to make some "goody two-shoes" feel better is idiotic.

If anyone knows of an online source for buying JD starting fluid, I would appreciate it if they would pass it along to the rest of us. I'm ready to start making my own model Diesel fuel on demand. TIA


Ed Cregger

Thank You Ed.

To FIERY and SGC, mostly...

This last time, I did chill - but not 'freeze' - the spray cans. In cooler weather, room temperature seems acceptable.

Agree, invert the can so the pickup straw is out of the liquid, and spray off propellant. When that hiss eases to a sigh, release the nozzle, shake it again, invert and spray off propellant. Two to four times through this is usually sufficient to get only a slight suggestion of a hiss with the can inverted. The can cools, but not to a freezing temperature.

After that last shake and propellant release, I turn the can upright quickly, and punch the upper rim with an awl. It is a good idea to avoid sparks, agreed? I tap the awl with a rubber mallet... Leave the point in the can as a bung, and gradually ease it out of tight seal contact. Yes, it will hiss again. Limit that until it settles out completely.

Withdraw the awl, and punch another hole next to the first one, then go to the opposite side of the rim and punch three holes close together. The first two serve as vents, when you pour the liquid content out through the other three. I have a glass jar of sufficient volume, with a 'good' sealing cap, handy during this process...

Pour the liquid from the can into the jar and close it up fairly well. You'll need two John Deere spray cans to brew up a quart of ~33% ether fuel.* So, most likely, you'll be milking another before you blend up the actual fuel. Mix the fuel ingredients as soon as safely practical after milking the pressure cans - Ether will evaporate through most ordinary cap seals. Transfer the measured blend into a metal screw cap can. If you have vent and feed tubes soldered through the cap, there's minimal ether loss in loading your bulb, bottle or syringe for fueling you model.

Seal the metal can cap threads with plumber's teflon thread seal tape. It does a great job.

* - The JD cans list content as 7 fl oz, 80% of which is di-ethyl ether. If measure is by volume rather than weight, that means 5.6 fl oz ether per can. Two cans yield a bit over 11 fl oz, or around 35% ether in the blend. I've presumed the 'other' liquid is similar to a clean kerosene, and not had reason to suspect anything harmful after checking engines run on fuel so blended. That make it easy to factor the other fuel elements. The 11.2 fl oz of ether occupies 14 fl oz of the fuel volume. If a 25% castor blend is intended, that's 8 fl oz per quart, totaling 22 fl oz for Ether and castor. The remaining 10 fl oz is for the kerosene (and DII, if used.) This example fuel is 35%E, 25%C, thus 40%K(w/small % DII if used.)

For the metric users, it should be even simpler if a reasonable lab graduate is at hand: percentages read more or less directly from the markings.

For USA diesel users, there should be some sort of farm or recreational equipment store, station or supplier within reasonable distance which carries John Deere goods. That should make a handy source for the JD Starting Ether.

I'll refer you to the MSDS for JD RE33636. www.jdmsds.com Search for the part number to the left.
--------------
Ingredient/CAS No.____wt. %
1,1-Oxybisethane
60-29-7__________80-90

Propane
74-98-6__________.1-10

Carbon Dioxide
124-38-9_________5-10

Butane
106-97-8________.1-10

Lubricating Oil
64742-52-5______.1-10
---------------------------

Please note that these are percentages by weight. Propane, carbon dioxide, and Butane are gases and are not in the liquid left over. The oil is a relatively low viscosity ~SAE10 added as an upper cylinder lube to prevent washing away all lubrication in the cylinder. I doubt it ever approaches 10%, probably just a few percent.

Yes, it says 80% ether, but when you consider that when you spray it into an intake manifold all of the contents are being ingested, this makes sense.

I've made my mixes using the actual volume of JD starting fluid and have been very happy. One day I might distill the oil for the ether to know how much is there, but it looks to be such a small amount I haven't bothered.

Ugo

Thanks Ugo. Yes, I know. That is all I would do. I don't have but a 1cc syringe and my smallest graduate is 500ml. I'll make a trip to get a 10cc graduate and then I might fiddle some more with that.

Greg,

Thanks for the MSDS breakdown! I tried chasing that from the JD website, and never got to it.

Also, I think I'll try using the actual volume to mix from. (I know, I know - fuels should list and mix by weight... Shoulda heard the fuss raised on at least one CL Stunt site when I mentioned it...) It will still take a can and a half to provide ~33% in a quart/liter of brew. That's better than two cans. If it works well using the full liquid content as ether, my "nominal" 35% E fuel was more like a 44% E blend. Sure started nice, once it chose to bubble less in the fuel line...

I store any excess JD in a small mouth glass cider jug, threads well sealed with that plumbers' teflon tape, and stored at room temperature away from direct light. Some escapes over a few weeks, which is pretty good for ether...

Ugo

Ugo, what are the chances of peroxides forming if the ether was already in a metal can and already mixed with some sort of oil? If anything you can put a piece of copper wire in the jar, to prevent it, no?

ugo

I should have been clear the copper wire was for the glass container.

Regardless one should download an MSDS for diethyl ether and see what it has to say. Taking precautions can't hurt.

I has the article how to destilate the ether by alcohol and sulphuric acid, after the ether are destillated, the wire of copper or iron must be added to prevent developing peroxide and stored in the dark brown glassbottle.

Yes, that what I have read. I read somewhere that lab supply ether is furnished with the copper wire inside.

attension old thread


I only saw this now and would like to find this articale if it out there can you point the way

save me the grief to buy the stuff and fill in loads of forms in triplicate with half the local police forces and no garenntee of supplies even after all that go figure
all I want is eneogh to run a 30cc engine and getting eneogh cans is a drag for bigger engines looks to be expensive and troblesome
There is going to be a load of local farmeres pissed with me when the big freeze arrives for buying up all the start cans in all the local agricultural shops in the region


balsaeater

balsaeater, dehidrating alcohol for obtaining ether is a very difficult task, since it involves highly corrosive acid, very flammable liquids, high temperatures, etc.
I firmly discourage you from this initiative, if not really chemically expert.
ugo

but don't despair, this under 20cc variable compression aspirated diesel went (rather) well on 55 years ago pump diesel. NO ether needed