RE: Substitute for Ether
 

That's right, we have not found a substitute for ether. What we HAVE found was that ether isn't absolutely necessary. We have Klotz Benol castor lubricant that will blend and stay blended with kerosene as long as the temperatures are reasonable. As in, any temperature that's comfortable to fly in, will allow you to run a no ether fuel.

The problems were starting, which has been solved with the application of a high ether prime and the careful use of an appropriately sized starter, and throttling, which has as yet to be adequately solved.

I can't imagine why an after run oil of any type would hurt diesel starting. But you never know,,, what was in that after run oil?

A collection of highly volatile liquids were tried and as was found, auto ignition temperature is/was the problem. Interestingly, WD40 made a good substitute for kerosene.

A good veggie oil may, in some way, help us. After being alerted to OS's new .55 that will run on their special fuel, which is composed of ETHANOL and a vegetable based lube, http://www.os-engines.co.jp/english/bio_eng/ I assumed that they were using the oil made by http://www.renewablelube.com/ so I called them. As it turns out, they never heard of OS. After a fascinating discussion with Jacqueline, the president of the company, I sent to her some information about our engines, glow, diesel and some links to this and other websites and threads. Hopefully, I'll have some of their two stroke, BioLube to play with. Get this, they are making a SYNTHETIC lubricant using vegetable oil feedstock.

Back to the original intent of this thread. Way back a great many years ago, I came across a fellow that was running a model engine in his backyard. I had just started in the hobby at 12 years of age (45 years ago) and was amazed to see it run with no glow plug. My only engine at the time was a Cox .049. For many years after, all I read about diesel was that they were very hard to start and adjust, that they throttled poorly and that the fuel was composed of fantastically exotic ingredients that no hobby shop on the planet except one, carried it in stock. So I lost out on a great hobby adventure until it was almost too late. But after my articles in Flying Models, I was asked by several folks to add throttles to their diesels. Not content with just doing that, I was compelled to run them and test throttling performance. Since then, I've concluded that what holds too many people back from trying and enjoying diesels had a lot to do with the difficulty of getting fuel. When AJ Coholic alerted me to the fact that MEKP would work as an ignition improver, I now had a real chance at getting diesels to run well. And with the discovery of JD Starting fluid, I now had a fuel that ran as well as the only commercial fuel I had ever had any experience with. This was graciously supplied by Dave Larkin during a trip to Ottawa. Forever grateful to Andrew and Dave, (and others) I have never had so much fun with engines in my life.

One thing led to another and one day I premixed some Klotz castor and kerosene in proportions that would allow me to just spike it with a proportion of ether and have a small batch to run as needed. That volatile ether with it's capacity to bleed through plastic was always so fickle. For some traditional engines, if you lost too much you had grief nearly guaranteed. My strategy allowed you to avoid this potential problem. One spring, I grabbed the wrong jug of fuel and proceeded to try and start the no ether and no ignition improver fuel. It took a lot of doing but by gosh Martha, I got a start and a run. All by accident and here we are today. Early on it was pointed out that castor won't blend with kerosene without ether. As it turns out, KLOTZ castor will, as long as it doesn't get too cold.

I'm hoping that RenewableLube's oil will avoid that problem and just maybe there's something about a blend of fuel using their oil that imparts unexpected benefits such as ease of starting and good throttling. I hope to be able to report on that in due course.

PS,

I have yet to fully explore the use of Morgan's, green synthetic oil as used in their Cool Power fuel. Kelly, (RingWinger) swears by it and I promise to give it a try in a no ether blend this year. I now have a decent supply of Norvel .15s to trash and with solid rods from OS, at least THAT weak link in a dieselized Norvel has been solved.

Oh yes, and here's an interesting tool for determinig what's coming out of the tail pipe using various fuels. C:\Documents and Settings\Owner\Desktop\TOOLS\Combustion.mht

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

One last link to encourage and inform. Jackie from Renewablelube alerted me to, http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/

I haven't had the time yet to fully explore this website but it sure looks good.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

SO SOMEONE FOUND THE SAE5W40!


Plantomot 5w40 resists polymerisation and can be used in any engine, its performance matches Mobil1


ALL diesel engines have a certain amount of fuel to engine oil contamination to a greater or lesser extent dependant upon many things, pre-combustion chambered engines tend to suffer less than direct injection engines. This is why, on any diesel, when engine oil is changed it immediately appears black again, this is soot / carbon deposits amongst other contaminates. When diesel contaminates engine oil it thins it out then most evaporates, when veg oil contaminates it thickens due to polymerisation and there is no evaporation. When engines are started from cold on SVO or a mix this ingress can be greatly accelerated. If you find that the dipstick level is rising the sump is filling up, it is a sure sign that your engine oil is being contaminated with veg oil, if left unchecked an overfull sump can cause damage. A simple test for polymerisation is to dip then get sample oil between thumb and forefinger, if it is sticky, CHANGE THE OIL, with converted engines in good condition this does not usually happen until normal service mileage is due, if at all. With converted engines we recommend engine oil changes every 5000 to 6000 miles, a good mineral based oil or semi synthetic oil is ok for some engines but a high spec plant based engine oil such as Plantomot 5w40 is even better as these oils resist polymerization well, conserve energy and are biodegradable. We advise use of these oils especially on higher powered engines and direct injection types. In extreme cases where the engine has gone way over its service interval and/or engine is not in good repair the engine oil can turn to sludge. BE WARNED.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Thi is it

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

The "Bob is the oil guy" website is great if you are talking about crankcase oils.

Renewable lube "synthetic". Better check the definition of "synthetic" motor oil. I haven't seen anything new on Renewablelube's site that would make it particularly suitable for a model engine. Though the SAE 40-50 engine oils would be fine.

Model airplanes using biodegradable lubricants? Who would have thunk it? Wait a minute what is castor oil?

After run oil issues:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=4586886

The Plantomot stuff looks interesting. Manufactured by Fuchs of Germany, it doesn't seem to be available in the US. Biomot produced by Panolin of Switzerland is just being introduced in the US. But at a 25 liter container unless I decide to put this in my car, I won't be trying it quite yet.

Ugo, a while back Steve (ama1836) posted his success with a 2% oil mix in JP8. Using your theory on dilution why has his engine survived? Amsoil's Saber has a viscosity, at 100C, of 13.5 cSt for your reference.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Greg,
If you read attently, JP8 mix reported as no2 in DIESEL FUELS, OILS, COMBUSTIBLES AND ADDITIVES has been run on FOUR STROKES ENGINES PREHEATED WITH GASOLINE WITH SPARK IGNITION, This means that JP8 is vapourized when entering in the liner, so NO DILUITION happens and the engine runs on combustible vapour and oil droplets, exactly as it has to work.
As for vegetable oils, castor is not all, since its reduced solubility in kerosene renders difficult to achieve low ether mixes stable at low temperatures This is why I am developing a vegetable oil useful for these conditions.
So far olive mixed with castor is promising, with NO modification at all, hopefully, but I have yet to asses well its characteristics and possible (VERY POSSIBLE) improvements.
Ugo

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Several pages back you wrote:


So nowe for some reason you are saying this isn't true? And that my engine preheated is somehow different?

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Renewablelube's website lists two versions of their two stroke oil. If I can get both, I'll test them in diesel and glow fuel.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

For the mathematically inclined.

http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~allan...ge9/page9.html


Better link to products of combustion. http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~allan...ombustion.html


Engine performance tool. http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~allan...ic/engine.html

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

One last link. http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~allan/engines.html

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Be careful. The TC-W3 is 9cSt at 100C and the TC-W is 10.4cSt. You're going to need a lot of oil compared to castor or other high viscosity synthetics. I'm sure Ugo can give a more specific answer. I'd be more incline to use the

The links are good. I made a spreadsheet to figure air/fuel ratios for different fuels a while back. Too bad the one page doesn't give that information. Unfortunately most of our engines are two stroke and have bore and stroke smaller than 29mm. Still interesting to play with, but you need some information we don't really have.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Greg,
As should be clear, two strokes are far different animals than four strokes. Don't confound the two behaviours. Open crankase 4strokes "in principle " NEVER see fuel in the crankase, so nothing to dilute oil arriving in it Two strokes in principle are EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE, in the crankase the combustible cohesists with oil, if it has not evaporated it forms a a mist that can show a severely reduced viscosity relative of straight oil. THIS IS MEANING DILUITION!
Andy,
Don't use two strokes oils for two strokes diesels, , they will destroy your conrods!
I am really tempted from vegetable chain lubes, as I already posted. They should fit well diesel needs, and should mix well with kero since they are soy or canola based, with adequate viscosity improvers and EP additives. Their cost is ridicoulous, and Renewablelube has some good high viscosity ones. Here in Italy I am searching for TOTAL chainlube, a vegetable that appears very similar to the renewablelube high viscosity types. Well worth trying, I guess.
Ugo

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Ugo,

Not sure what you mean by your comment. Klotz Benol (castor) is a two stroke oil, intended for gas and methanol in two stroke snowmachines, dirt bikes etc. Perhaps you meant a two stroke MINERAL oil?

What I was referring to was a vegetable based, synthetic oil and that would be similar to castor i would think.

But all the technicalities aside, there's nothing like the empirical approach IMO. We really don't have to know WHY it works for it to work.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Andy,
where you speaking of :
"Renewablelube's website lists two versions of their two stroke oil. If I can get both, I'll test them in diesel and glow fuel."?
So no klotz benol, I guess. If these above are the oils, avoid them, they don't work with D I E S E L TWO STROKES.
Test their chainlube! because" But all the technicalities aside, there's nothing like the empirical approach IMO. We really don't have to know WHY it works for it to work"
Yor reference is nice, but seems packed of errors, starting from http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~allan...pplet/vol.html where V/Vd is an adimensional quantity....expressed in cm**3.
Ugo.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Ugo, I'm not about to start throwing insults around. But wasn't I the one trying to tell you that my four strokes were running just fine without ether? Now you've changed your mind and say something completely opposite and are telling me that I'm wrong? I've never said anything about fuel diluting crankcase oils in our model four strokes. Now you mention two strokes when I asked you specifically about four strokes.

Please reread this and the following several pages to refresh your memory.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_45...5/key_/tm.htm#

Are trying to make a fool out of me? Or do you take me for a fool?

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Are you sure they don't work with D I E S E L TWO STROKES????? Can you tell us what the picture show us?

In early post you told you used the ZAHN viscosimeter and you wrote they was calibrated to a temperature since they are not in warm bath to keep exact temperature and the hole can not be changed. Can you explain how you did..

All measurements should be made at 77 F (25 C) are wrote in this link: http://home.fuse.net/clymer/water/viscosity.html

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Motorboy,
I NEVER SPOKE OF KLOTZ BENOL. If it is castor oil is castor oil, at the very end the brand really makes little difference, and nature never made any two, three or four strokes oil, it made oils, that can fit or not whatever you would fit, and castor oil fits well engines and intestines, and many more.
A viscosity can be measured at every temperature and value, also glass has one, the difficult is to make it pass throug a hole, it takes a bit too much time. You can use cup viscometers also with molten metals! The only rule is to control drop formation. At that point viscometer does not measure since surface tension prevails on flow.
The reason of fixed temperature measurement is to mantain comparability between different batches under measurement. No other reason, since ordinary temperatures do not affect neither the size of the cup nor that of the hole. Fixed temperature measurements are customary since cup viscometers are mainly used as production control instruments due to the simplicity of operation, so also an inexperienced tester can quickly follow on the field the viscosity of what is in productio and take the opportune measures in real time, think of a paint production line.
You can use your cup viscometer until it melts, the real problem is to calibrate it, not to use standard calibration. This gives more accuracy, and I used calibrating solutions for it.

Ugo

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Ugo... As i said before the cup viscometer are not presise as falling ball viscosimeter..

The problem with cup viscosimeter are weight of fluid and loss of heat are influencing the time of measure therefore the cup viscosimeter are not presise and has a tolerance at 20% plus minus. It is too coarse. You has not the calibrating oil to test the cup viscosimeter are within tolerance range when you are talking about calibrate the Zahn viscosimeter. Your measurement of oil can be more unprecise without you know about the measure tools are within tolerance range or not.

The falling ball viscosimeter are best since the temperature are constant and the fluid are not influenced by weight. Tolerance are better than 1%. Because the ball has a constant weight and the glass tupe are in a container with heated fluid to keep constant temperature.

http://www.geneq.com/catalog/en/visco_ball.html
http://wise.fau.edu/~blarkin/Viscometer.html
http://www.rheologysolutions.com/fallingball_techs.html

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

G'day to all.

I have been using an Australian oil for after run and engine lay-up. It is called INOX http://www.inox-mx3.com/

One thing about this oil though is that often when I flip the prop to distribute the oil it will fire-up and run in a decent burst. This is a pain (as my bitten fingers attest) and so I relube but turn the engine over carefully and slowly. This even happens with glow engines, which as you know, have a much lower compression ratio than a diesel.

I suspect that INOX is a vegetable oil as it is non-toxic and used by the food industry. As I cannot afford to sacrifice engines as guinea pigs to science I do not intend to investigate this personally - but I though that this may be of interest in the quest for etherless fuels.

Avagoodone

Cu Later * Danny M * (In wet and chilly Albury-Wodonga)

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Danny, thanks for posting that.

I had a look at thier website and the product to which you refer.

INOX contains no silicon, acid, kerosene or dieselene.

INOX will not harm metal points or surfaces, plastics, paints, enamels, fibreglass, formica or neoprene seals.

INOX doesn't dry out, gum up, become gooey or sticky or wash off with water !

INOX is non- conductive, non-static, non-toxic, non-corrosive and non-staining.

Sounds impressive, and there is more:

FOOD GRADE Approvals:
AUSTRALIA: Instrument of Approval is freely available on request.
NEW ZEALAND: NZFSA Approved C 12 (All animal product except dairy)

which means (I think) that it is safe to use on machinery or equipment used for food preparation.

Wow!

I had a look at the msds which says that it is composed of primarily "ingredients determined not to be hazardous".

Very interesting indeed!

The impression, I got perhaps incorrectly so, is that the Inox products are or are probably lanolin based.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lanolin

Wikipedia entry for Lanolin


and some details of lanolin

http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/l1268.htm

Flash point: 238C (460F)
Autoignition temperature: 445C (833F)

fine and dandy but that is a pretty high autoignition temperature - perhaps Inox is not lanolin based or has something else in it ?

Interestingly, I would never have considered lanolin as a base for a lubricant. Here in North America you will primarily see lanolin used in the context of a hand cream or lotion or something to put on dry, chapped, cracking skin.

A quick search found a number of similar lanolin based products for example:

http://www.conbear.com/Lanotec%20lanolin_products.htm

And, also interesting is that all or most of these other lanolin based lubricants are available from or originate in Australia, New Zealand and in general that part of the world.

Actually the web site is quite an interesting read and has me at the point that I would like to get a hold of some of this stuff and give a try. I see from the Inox web site that they list a handful of US sources.

Indeed, interesting and another road to follow in this twisty turning tail of our search for a "Substitute for Ether" which turned into something about lubricants which eventually turns into ... anybodies guess is as good as mine!

cheers, Graham in Embrun near Ottawa Canada

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

I also went to the MSDS for some answers and got none. You can't assume that it is vegetable based because it is certified food grade. There are many petroleum based oils that are certified.

Without knowing what this product is I think it will be hard to determine what it does in a fuel mix and how much is suitable.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Very true Greg.

However, lanolin is animal based not vegetable.

As an after run type of oil it may be quite suitable, it's use in a two cycle fuel mix? who knows!

cheers, Graham

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Lol, now you understand why I think that it a good layup oil.

Just don't flick an engine with vigour unless you have kevlar fingers ;-)

Cu later * Danny M *

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Hi Danny Old Fruit

Fancy meeting you here [8D] I have been using INOX MX5 as a lubricant on Seelig timers for a couple of years but not in engines as an afterrun oil; which one are you using?

From memory INOX is lanolin based and was originally developed for heavy machinery many years ago.

Ployd in OZ

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Hi mate. I started using this oil after I asked an engine manufacturer how come I could purchase a 20 year old motor which was not corroded? (You surely must have wondered). Then I asked a C/L racing mate (who reconditions car cylinder heads for an income) how they preserved them before sale. I was pointed towards this oil. Then I confirmed it with Winchy. Until recently one could not purchase Inox in less than a 20L drum. Now I can buy a $10 spraycan that lasts for a couple of years. It's also good on my trout fishing reels but that's another story.

Cu later * Danny M *