RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Andy,
trying to use biodiesel for two strokes model engines means filling the krancase with low viscosity stuff, no hope to have it vapourized when arriving in the combustion chamber, so you will have smoky exhaust and poor lubrification. As for Heptane or Hexane, they are interesting as starters, Heptane has the highest detonability, but hexane has a lower boiling point. This helps for starting. I think they sell heptane mixed with ether since selling hexane mixed with ether for some purposes should be the same as using ether.......you understand.
I don't know how to find Heptane, but Hexane is widely used in laboratories, but not cheap. Hexhane is also sold everywhere as home stain remover, but unfortunately here it is compulsory sold mixed with dichloropropane, that renders it useless for us due to the chlorine content.
For those interested in modified olive, look at this fresh raw data. They have yet to be calibrated in viscosity, and the temperatures higher than 120°C will require another cup viscometer, but the interesting reliabilty of the lubrificant clearly appears to be mantained over an exceptiona temperature range. Another interesting result is that (double) modified oil (dots) is only sligtly more viscous than unmodified one (crosses), notwithstandig the apparent higher viscosity alo I felt.
Unfortunately the sample went lost while trying a third modyfying, in presence of some very fine steel wool acting as a catalyzer, but I made in time to notice how this wool keeps all the impurities arising during heating.
This batch had one particularity, it went from an exceptionally old sample of olive oil kept out from air, but not more edible.
Ugo

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Hi guys,

The winter season always puts a cramp into things. Does it snow in Italy? Anyway, there's also something about not being able to immediately test an idea or modification that drags down the enthusiasm. I like to make it and try it right now. Kinda impatient that way.

Hot summers are going to be the norm it seems. Hope that only goes so far though.

About the viscosity of Biodiesel. I may have mentioned it but I have a commercial sample and what I call my Premium Product. I've done the methanol test and the water test on the commercial stuff and it failed both tests. My version passes both and the really good stuff also passes the "bubble test" You take your BioFuel, in a clear jug and give it a vigorous shake. If bubbles form and take a few seconds to dissipate, then it is not as good as if the bubbles disperse immediately. The good stuff has a very "liquid" feel to it, the commercial and my ordinary stuff has a distinctly oily characteristic.

The real good stuff is clearly more viscous than kerosene but not as thick as commercial BioDiesel.

On the rebuilt and modified Tanaka, I added a reed valve intake directly to the bottom of the crankcase. We all know that these engines, these days, are sideport designs and the carb has a fibre/plastic intake block between it and the hot cylinder. I believe that's to prevent vapour lock. At this point I'm considering just hacking up my good Tanaka but leaving the intake as is. Only this time, I use a stock, RC carb from my Enya .60 and also leave out the insulating block. The idea is that the hot carb will vapourize/atomize the incoming, thicker, BioDiesel fuel charge.

About lubrication. I did some runs last year, posted to YouTube, testing modified olive oil against castor on no ether mixes. The post "Something Wrong" illustrates how forgetting something crucial can lead you astray. The OliveLube mix ran well. The Castor mix didn't. What I forgot was that castor and kerosene don't stay mixed at cold temps. I know that the two aren't supposed to mix at all but Benol castor from Klotz does, as long as you're above 60F or so. One thing I recall is that the olive lube seemed to enhance idling for some reason. But, as you say, you have to fly the stuff before you can get a proper evaluation. I'll be trying to do some of that this summer.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

The OliveLube mix ran well. The Castor mix didn't. What I forgot was that castor and kerosene don't stay mixed at cold temps. I know that the two aren't supposed to mix at all but Benol castor from Klotz does, as long as you're above 60F or so. One thing I recall is that the olive lube seemed to enhance idling for some reason.

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I found that castor and kerosene don't mix without a certain quantity of ether being present.
I made a mix of 10% ether and 25% castor... and it seemed O.K
The fuel mix was left for a few days and when I came to use it it was very cloudy..... hmmmmm !

I added ether to take it up to 12% and again it looked O.K.... until left for awhile.
I finally found that the fuel mix remained clear when the ether content was brought up to 15%.

I gained the impression that a minimum of 15% ether was necessary in order to use 25% castor oil as the lubricant. This was in the UK in fairly cool weather, warmer temperatures may mean you can get away with less ether in the mix.

I found, after extensive testing, that olive oil does indeed give very good idle speeds.
Mineral oil seems to give very good throttle response
A mix of castor oil, modified olive oil and mineral oil gave me the very best running conditions of all.... with the added advantage of peace of mind due to the castor content ;)

I don't know why olive oil should give such a marked improvement in idling but it certainly does.
Mineral oil gave a much better and instantaneous response to rapid throttle movements.

When mixed together in the fuel the combination of olive oil and mineral oil still gives the best characteristics of both.... very rapid throttling and superb idle..... beats me .... but it works !

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Well, I've run a number of no ether mixes using mineral oil and also Klotz castor. This is a highly refined and perhaps modified castor oil. It does work. I have tried other Castors such as Sig and the drug store variety and they don't stay mixed, as you say, without at least some ether. But again, the temperatures have to be reasonable for Klotz to remain suspended.

But I'd be happy to send you some Klotz if it's hard to get on that beautiful Island of yours. Send me a PM. Engine testing season is here !!

I like your idea of a blend of the three oils. There DOES seem to be some kind of undiscovered magic with Olive oil. Hopefully, I can get to testing some of those blends soon.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

I have another doubt, why "OLIVE"? Who suggested first it? Who choose it? On what basis? Could anyone help?
It is a good oil but probably is the LESS modifiable of all edible oils. This property, or better its stability may, be good for closed crankase engines, but it is not particularly interesting for open crankase engines, as 2 or 4 strokes model engines.
Maybe the old suggestion "use the cheapest and thickest oil" on the original paper for modifying conceals an important truth. Cheap polyinsaturated oils are more apt to improving at levels of viscosity higher than the olive one. In this case their negative alimentary quality turns to be useful for model engines.
Ugo

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

merugo,
I made 2 batchs of the modified "cheap cooking oil" and then was sugested olive oil by an aquantance who is a bio chemist.
In actual engine tests both batchs of cheap vegi oil ran well and mixed well but there was increased mechanical noise from the motor indicateing a lack of viscosity at running temps/conditions, wereas the modified olive oil the improved running/starting qualities were still obtained but the mechanical noise had disappered -(engine sounded the same as if running on castor)
I also noted that running on modded olive oil had a cleaning effect -ie all the burnt castor residue on the piston was flushed out , initial runs had a very black gooey exhaust , but once the engine internals were clean the exhaust went clear and the inside of the motor is like new. Hence my recomendation not to use modded olive oil in an old well run engine as the cleaning of the castor varnish may result in a loss of compression.

Slope-soarer,
Your mineral oil results are interesting , what brand/type of oil are you useing???
as some have tried mineral oils /2st oils with mixed results, I think the results depend on the additives the oil has , some seem to interfere with the combustion process some dont , maybe we need to tabulate those mineral/synthetic oils that work.

Andy,
From what I have read about castor oil is, first press castor(degummed) will not mix well with petrolium/kerosene, but heating the oil for a period of time will partly polimerise the oil , this changes its structure and it will now mix with petrolium products above/about (ithink)20degC-sorry i cant remember the No's, from this I beleive Klotz castor has undergone this heating process dureing its processing.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Another point to consider on moddifying vegi oils is the type/species of the oil, the actual oil makeup can vary due to climate the plant is grown in and subspecies/variety therefor an oil grown in the USA may not in fact behave the same as in Italy or Australia. Also a lot of the cooking oil crop in the USA is grown from GE enhanced species wereas those grown here in Australia are not. I cant remember the type of grain crop but one grown in the US has a gene from the castor plant transplanted into it to make it produce an oil suitable for bio fuels, the main market is for cooking oils and into Europe for bio diesel production.
Stewart
Back in this thread I mentioned I tried moddifying Rice Bran oil - this was a failure, later reseach revealed this oil to be high in vit E which makes the oil very stable-ie resistant to change by heat or oxidisation makeing it a healthy salad oil or a gooid cooking oil but unsuitable for our use.
So an oil may look good as a candidate for modifying , but if the Vit E level is too high it wont be suitable, is there a way to strip the vit E from the oil ?
Castor oil is stabilised by the addition of vit E to stop it polimeriseing and forming varnish's

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

SGC,
oil polymerization may follow different paths. One follows oxydation, and adding or finding antioxydants in oil helps avoiding oxydation and accompanying polymeryzation . But polymeryzation may depend from other causes, as temperature or chemical/mechanical tratment. So the presence or not of antioxydants, as tochopherol ( vit E) does not exclude the possibility of enhancing the viscosity with appropriate treatment.
Rising the polymerization by oxydating methods is to be avoided for closed crankase engines since it is invariably accompanied by an increase of acidity of the oil, that leads to corrosion after a hundred hours of internally recycling circulation. This is not clearly our case, so oxydating polymeryzation could be accepted.
As for olive oil, it starts with the highest viscosity between edible oils before any treatmen, but is the less prone to "enhancements". I don't know much of rice oil, but it could rise in viscosity due to the presence of double carbon bonds, perhaps the suggested modification does not work for it.
From your reply can I argue that you were the first here to try and suggest olive oil? If possible, in a very short way, could you resume your modification procedure?
Ugo

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

In actual engine tests both batchs of cheap vegi oil ran well and mixed well but there was increased mechanical noise from the motor indicateing a lack of viscosity at running temps/conditions, wereas the modified olive oil the improved running/starting qualities were still obtained but the mechanical noise had disappered -(engine sounded the same as if running on castor)

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Hi Stewart,
That is exactly what I found when using modified cheap cooking oil. After some time running an etherless mix with this lubricant I lost the wrist pin bearing in a PAW 09 [:o]

After reading your original post about modified olive oil I gave it a try.... it does indeed run much quieter, similar to when using castor oil.

Andy,
I have tried a number of mixes, some etherless and some with different amounts of ether.
Non-ether and modded olive oil work well.
Non-ether and mineral oil work well.

10% ether and mineral oil with 8% castor.... ran well, good throttling, idled satisfactorily.
10% ether and modded olive oil with 8% castor... ran well, idled superbly and very slowly but hesitated slightly when the throttle was rammed open.

Mixing mineral oil, modded olive and castor..... superb slow idle, instant response to throttle. After 4 minutes at a very slow idle the throttle could be rammed fully open and the engine would respond without any hesitation. I don't think the castor oil was contributing anything to this, apart from some protection, it is only in there because I was diluting down commercial fuel which contained castor as the lubricant.

The mineral oil used was.... part synthetic oil produced specifically for diesel car use. My own diesel engined car uses it and it has various additives in it.

Testing of fuel mixes was done over a period of time. Some tests were 2 hours at a time. The engines were frequently refuelled as soon as they stopped and started straight away. I will be using the 10% ether mix with castor/olive and mineral oil lubrication for flying this season.
I hope to get a lot of hours in to see how well the engines stand up to this mix.

I could just as easily make it a non-ether mix, using a mixture of olive oil and mineral oil for lubrication. I think I will stick with 1 step at a time and use the 10% ether mix extensively before moving onto the next stage.

I have been flying a 15% ether and 25% castor mix. This has worked well without any problems, once I use up the small amount left I will then use the 10% ether and mixed lube fuel mix. If I go one stage at a time and prove it over a lengthy period then I can try the next stage and slowly build up some knowledge about the different fuel mixes..... that's the theory anyway...

..

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Also I run briefly on castor-olive mix. It appears to be a very good compromise. I guess this mix is really clean and has less viscosity than straight castor, but sufficient for making engine running smoothly.
I will try to measure the viscosity of this oil mixture.
As for "cheap" oils, obviously this is a quality unrelated with viscosity, better to refer the composition, if possible.
Ugo

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

another factor unrelated to viscosity is the EP rateing of an oil ,ie how well it stands up under extreme pressure. As we know castor oil under extreme heat/pressure will form higher polimers(laqure) which protects our moveing bits, I dought this is happening with the olive oil, but it does appere extremly stable , so it may well have a good EP rateing , wereas the cheap cooking oils may have a poor EP rateing even though there viscosity apperes adequate.
Stewart

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

I wonder if it's the excess refining that cheap oils undergo. The book, "Fats that heal, Fats that Kill" reveals how the original oil goes through multiple heating and cooling stages, chemicals (toxic) are added and boiled away, stabilizers are added etc. etc. This renders the "oil" into something that can sit on the shelf unrefrigerated. As such it's been "plasticized" and not really food anymore. The old saying, if it spoils, eat it before it does and if it won't spoil, throw it out applies, I think.

Olive oil, for the most part must be refrigerated, at least after opening. Many are cold pressed, first pressings, no preservatives etc. Could this be at least ONE of the reasons that olive oil responds well to modification?

What if one were to acquire a "virgin" oil such as the draining of peanut oil from pure, natural peanut butter?

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Viscosity of olive oil has been proved to increase with pressure, so it fits engine needs. Various types of olive (apart from the crop) differ mainly for the presence of free fatty acids. The more the free fatties, the less the quality and the more disturbing the extraction method. This is important for alimentary purposes, but probably does not mean anything for model engines, since they spit quickly the oil, without possibility of chemical modification. So the cheapest olive performs as the costlier ones. What is important is to "feel" the viscosity. This depends on the crops and on the brands.
Now I have the viscometer useful for high temperature-low viscosity measurements, wait for more data after calibration. But who introduced olive oil here?
Ugo

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Ugo,

I believe it was SGC, (Stewart) from Australia who first brought up the entire subject of modified oil and modified olive oil.

So viscosity and viscosity under high temperature and pressure is the important factor?

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Andy, Ugo,
I beleive it was slope-sourer who posted about the modifying of cheap cooking oil , which I tried but was not happy with its performance, so I started looking into other oils to try, I then asked advice from a bio chemist and they without hesitation sugested olive oil to me. So I then tried modding it and liked the results and posted about it.
Stewart

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Credit then, goes to both of you. I wonder if castor has been used for so long and just did the job that olive was simply overlooked as not just an alternative but an oil with specific, beneficial properties.

I have Biodiesel made from a selection of oils including coconut and olive. Maybe I'll try to make some from castor. Would that give you a biodiesel fuel that requires no additional lube?? Or, a BioLube that not only lubes at 20% but burns contributing to low emissions and extra power in a standard, diesel mix?

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Andy, Stewart and Sloper, thanks for your replies.
I am not sure of the possibility of using olive oil alone, because the resulting viscosity should be rather low, but what appears the interesting is that ,by mixing with appropriate proportions of castor ,one can vary the working viscosity matching better his engine/flying needs. This seems really an appealing way to better mixes.
As for adding mineral or synthetic oil, the matter can be really different since these oils differ widely also between them.
A stone in a pond: DID ANYONE USE FOR MIXES BIO CHAINSAW LUBES? Some of them have very interesting properties at high temperatures and are listed at prices cheaper than olive oil. I am searching for them, but BIO (vegetable) and not mineral biodegradable ones.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

High viscosity are not allways to be sure the oilfilm are stronger against bearing pressure. Two difference oil with same viscosity can not have same properties when we are talking about high bearing pressure.

The best to test the oil are strong are the four ball pressure test.
The other method to test pressure agains oilfilm are the electric motor with steel wheel against the other non rotating steelwheel who are connected to torque wrench. Both steel wheel are in oil. The amper meter are connected to electric motor. While the electric motor are rotating, increase pressure the non rotating wheel against rotating wheel and check amper meter. Little press (read at torque wrench) + hi amper means the oilfilm are weak and vice versa.

We had problems with Mercedes-Benz Vito van cars in first period, the engine was damaged too often. The maintenance was followed and service was completed each time these MB Vito was in car shop.

Cause 10W/40 motoroil for car was not good enough for the engine, then we replaced to use 10w/40 motoroil for lorry/truck. Problem was solvent. The engine last well.

Jens Eirik

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Jens,

When I was actually working for a living, I ran an industrial supply store. We sold lubricants for industry, gear oil and also greases. We had a product that you added to any oil that improved the EP rating. They had a demonstration device similar to what you have described. Unfortunately, this was not meant for two stroke application.

But what if someone tried this or a similar additive? I knew what it was back then but memory fades. Anyone know what that might be?

On the gasser thread, there's much discussion about oils and some swear by Amsoil's claim of 100/1 mix for their synthetic. Others trash the notion. That is, of course with a rod with bearings. Still, if 1% works on them, might it not be robust enough to work for our bushed rods at 5% ?

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Andy the lube requirements for a roller big end /little end differ greatly to that required for a bushed end. A fact not recognised by a lot is a bearing can actually run hot if over lubed, this never happens with a bush- ye sounds weared but true.
explanation - a bearing needs room for the oil to pass around the balls/rollers without restriction- restriction causes friction heat.
a bush needs a full coverage of lube to keep the shaft/pin centralised to reduce friction .
Stewart

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Stewart,

Yes, that's true. I was in the bearing business for some 35 years. We saw a LOT of failures due to too much, not enough, wrong kind, wrong viscosity etc. etc. But the bearing manufacturers and the lube manufacturers sometimes disagreed with each other on certain points.

They both agreed, though, that too much or too high viscosity would cause the balls/rollers/needles to skid instead of roll. This would depend, of course on load and speed. With low load and low speed, you could lube a bearing with chicken grease. Get out of that range by any margin and you had to be careful.

There's a thing called a babbitted bearing. They called it a bearing, clearly a misnomer from the days when that sort of thing was far more common. It was, basically, a lead alloy bushing that, in some cases, was poured into place against the shaft. That gave you a perfect fit. This was actually inside a thing called a pillow block. The lead, being very soft and the steel much harder, gave you a broad, hard/soft combination. These are still in use today for large, heavy, milling equipment.

My point was, if Amsoil can claim that their product is sufficient at 1% in a gasser, why would 5 times as much, (5%) not be sufficient in a bushed rod? I guess I'll have to give them a call.

Here's a thought. Make rods with VERY hard steel bushings. Cox engines, all the way up to the .09 and maybe the .15, have a steel rod. With that against a steel crankpin, I've never seen rod wear in this area on any of my Cox engines. Even those that I mistakenly ran on Morgan's Sidewinder fuel. We have no car activity around here so I had no idea that the 25% nitro car fuel I was using had only some 12% oil. And yet, this never hurt the rod. At least at the crank end. Cox are notorious for getting sloppy at the piston and a reset tool was pretty much a must if you ran them. Still, the big end was always happy no matter what fuel you ran.

At any rate, I dug up that batch of Olivelube I made last year and will be making up some diesel mixes with it for my .15 test bed engine.

And, I'm in the process of getting some commercially made BioDiesel. Where I live, it's not possible to get it at the pump. Anyone else given a thought to trying it? There may be something missing or something that shouldn't be there in my homemade stuff. Won't know till I run the real thing.

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Andy,
I first encountered babbited brgs as a young teenager when I helped my father restore a "T Model Ford" both the mains and bigend brgs are babbit type. I also learnt how to blue and hand scrape these brgs for fit, a skill I later required when working on a power station rebuild, all the exciter,generator, 2 low pressure, medium pressure and high pressure turbines had babbit brgs in sperical brg housings all of which had to be hand scraped for fit. Turned out I was the only fitter that could do the job in a reasonable time to the required standard :)-bludy boreing job tho
Stewart

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

Hi Andy and all,

glad to see the ideas are still flowing in this thread. I have been sidetracked with some messing about with higher performance 1/2a glow engines for a 1/2a proto profile type plane but I will never loose interest in the diesels.

Andy, could it have been a Lucas oil product? I regularily see the Lucas demo thingy at many auto/industrial supply stores. They have additives for crankcase oil and for other lube products. Canadian tire has or use to sell them too.

I remember babbited bearings - never had much to do with them however. A term I don't hear to often anymore.

cheers, Graham

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

When I worked at Advanced Ceramics we uset the 50:1 Amsoil at 50:1 with JP-8/ diesel in our OS.91FS engines. We had flights in excess of 15 hours with no ill effects to the engine except for some peeling of the coating off of the cam for the pushrods.
Steve

RE: Substitute for Ether
 

I am happy to see someone interested in fuel components, this mean that diesels are well alive and that their future will not be that of running wheel chairs!
Let me remember that :

a) ball bearings require the LESS viscosity the HIGHER the rpm
b) plain bearings NEVER run in axis
c) the required viscosity for both systems, strange it may seem, are very similar at high rpm
d) variable loads require slightly higher viscosity
e) four strokes requirements may differ strongly from two strokes
Now the 1 billion $ ask. WHO KNOWS WHAT ARE THE OVERALL REQUIREMENTS for model engines running between 10K and 20k rpm?
And, what are the requirements for the liner? and what those for the rod big end? and for the small one? I guess those copying and selling diesel mixes do not know them.... but this is not "intellectual property" and no lawyer will give you the advice of not disclosing what you think....who has hears will hear....
VEGETABLE OILS CAN MET ALL THESE REQUIREMENTS, and we here can see some interesting experiences. As soon as a definitive word will emerge I will post them in the fuel thread.
FOR NOW I AM DEFINITELY ADVICATING THE DEVELOPEMENT OF VEGETABLE OILS, AND MORE OF THEIR MIXES, AS SOMEONE IN THIS THREAD IS ALREADY MAKING.
When "CLASSICAL" mixes were conceived none could think to cases as throttling, and four strokes conversions. Now it is time to consider these cases as relevant, and mixes must respond to these new needs.
Now I am working on documenting and testing. Flying or bench experiences as those of Andy, Stewart, Sloper and others may help .
I think we have and can reach a sort of consensus over a definitive word.
My point of view is evermore that a mix of different vegetables will be the last word, each of them assuming roles similar to every non vegetable lubrificant that is, BASE oil, VISCOSITY improver, EXTREME PRESSURE component....remembering that we deal with NON RECIRCULATING OILS . NO OIL IN A MODEL ENGINE WILL LIVE THERE FOR MORE THAN 10 SECONDS, so the requirements for it are extremely simplified in respect to car oils.
Ugo