My dad had a Hartman Zeus with a Taurus wing and tail. It was an excellent flyer with a Veco.45; it pretty much flew like a Taurus but it was at full throttle all the time. So..... by installing a .61 I'll just use the throttle. There's only an eight ounce tank installed so at least I'll get longer flight times for crusing around and stuff.

I am sure that those pictures were taken at Kickapoo Woods Forest Preserve south of Chicago. It was home to the RC club Kaz was a member of. I recognize the building showing behind Ed's head.The white lines in the photos are the parking spaces in the parking lot.

John W.

Hi,

In the Aero Modeller article above it say:
Ed took two first places in Detroit and South Bend. Two seconds in Desmonies and Dayton.

Anyone know what contest that was and is there any result-lists so it is possible to see what other persons was in the contests?
Maybe some of them are still alive and can tell how Simla was flying in the air if asked?

But it seems Simla flew great in the four contests above at least.
It is really a big bird - the Super Tigre 60 engine he used seems on the edge to be able to cope with this large airplane (95 inch wingspan, 9 lbs).

/Bo

<div style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt"><span style="font-size: 9pt">Duane,
Sorry for the delay (danged work). Picture 4 and 6 are what triggered my memories. 1965 was a memorable year for me as I became an amputee that year. My Dad had given me a Sterling Mini Mambo and took me to that field to introduce me to modeling. He was a "free-flight" modeler but always dreamed of getting into RC. Years later, he explained that this was his way of keeping me "occupied" (little did he know!) I instantly became nutso on anything that had wings and a prop (yeah. I like jets too). Long story short, my Dad would drop me off at Kickapoo Woods in Harvey, Illinois on Saturday morning and he would not return until dinner time. We actually lived only a half a mile away so it was rather convenient for him. How do I know that the pictures are Kickapoo Woods? Well, a good memory helps, but I did grow up there. In pic 4, in the background view is a large (5 or 6 story) apartment building, left of that was an auto body shop (Chuck's Body Shop). Across (north) from Chuck's was a gas station (perhaps a Standard Oil); to the south of the pic would be an A&amp;W Root Beer Drive In. What confirmed this was pic 6, the younger fellow holding the big Taurus (Simla), in the background (his left) on the right side is the upper section of the old granary factory which was located in the Indiana Harbor Belt (?) railway yard at 138th and Halsted. As a dumb kid, we regularly explored that building. Now I don't recall Ed, my Dad, or their pals Art and Ken, ever calling anything Simla; however, Taurus andTauri were common as daylight. I believe that I saw the big Taurus, orSimla, fly on several occasions. I recalla really largered, white, and black trimmed model that I always thought was a Taurus, fly gracefully about the sky. I say it was large as I recall (Ken's) a Mighty Mambo resting next to it that was quite similar in wingspan. In fact, that same Mighty Mambo bought the tree one Saturday afternoon!I can say that when it flew, it was very smooth and stable, and Ed was very good at landing. In fact, I recall very few of the guys ever being able to land and hold the nose off the ground like Ed could. These are memories Duane, of which I've been accused of having an acute version of, but without doubt that is where those pics were taken. I would venture that Ed had many friends that went unnoticed, he was very friendly and invited youngsters (like me) to look and ask questions; and we did. It's too bad that we took it all in stride; who could have imagined that over four decades later many of us would be seeking the tidbits of Eddy Kaz's RC doings.Whatever pics that I can dig up I will, but most are tattered B&amp;W that are in very poor condition; but a few depict Kickapoo Woods. This probably doesn't help much Duane, but at least you'll know <u>where</u> as well as when those particular pics were taken. Thanks.
hook57
Mark
AMA 63845
SPA 384
N641RM</span></div>

John,
Just saw your post. Yes, that is right. The building is an aparment complex and the RC club was one I belonged to for some 14 years. Were you from the area, Riverdale, Dolton, Cal City, South Holland, or Harvey? If we can confirm this with more than myself thanI think Duane can say it as much as fact rather than supposition. Another pic shows parts of the old granary buildings that bordered the rail yard (part IHB and B&amp;O I believe) and that gives supports my conviction that it is indeed the "Kick".
Mark

Hi Mark
I lived on the northside of Chicago , flew a few times at Kickapoo Woods and knew Kaz and a few others in that club.Have been to Kaz's house once or twice and several of us talked about RC on 6 meter Ham Radio. Lots of good memories from that period.
I'm still fly RC at least once a week and will be competing in an IMAC contest this weekend in Phoenix.
Is there still a RC field in Kickapoo? It looked like a Golf course in satelite photos.

John W
Scottsdale, Az

John,
Good luck in the IMAC contest! I believe you're looking at the Joe Louis Golf Course in Riverdale used to be called "Pipe-O-Peace" I'm sure; and the Calumet River is just to the north of that. On Google earth, pan to the south a few miles and you'll see the field; the smaller "LittleCalumet" river is just south of the parking lot. In fact type "Kickapoo Woods" in the seach box and it'll point it out. It's still there too, with a paved runway. I looked and I can identify the small stand of trees behind Ed in that picture too. The Chicago Model Masters now fly there, a great bunch of guys, many of whom migrated out of control-line and into RC. The info on them is vaque but they do have a website with acess for members (may still be under construction.) Art Talou (sic), Ken Bless, Jerry Worth,were afew of the more memorable guys I knew that flew there in the sixties when Ed did.
Mark

OK Duane, just one question, whats missing from this image?
Evan

Wow, what a collection - a Tauri, Orion, and two Taurus. So You want a Simla now...?

/Bo

That's called a rhetorical question, isn't it? Bo, Evan wants a real Simla, not a virtual one, even if it has retracts.
I think Duane is busy building a prototype, we call it a PCM.

Hook, would you mind posting a link for maps.google.com? I can't find the field using your hints, and Kickapoo doesn't exist there.
If you know who Frank Myers was (the guy who drew the first Taurus plans) I would appreciate any information, too. Each time I ask I get no response. Disregard if he was a bad guy.

Yes Bo, Simla is missing...but I think we can redress that particular problem. It is interesting to note that you see two Taurus, I have to think that Dennis Hunt made that observation when Ed visited Africa. We know that Ed flew one of his versions, and the other was his back-up and may never have left the famous box...easy to see that they could have been thought identical. Also answers another question or two, namely why, given that there was already a proper plan (Meyer) of the thing, did Dennis get the drawings 'on bits of brown paper'. Could it be that Ed was giving Dennis the drawings of his second version of Taurus, for which there was, at the time, no formal drawing? If so then that also answers the question of which Taurus Dennis actually built, and he may have built the only other TF/MAN 'prototype' Taurus ever built...
Evan.

Let's see. Rather than trying to find it in the thread, I'm operating by memory.

If we look at the time line, the Meyer plan, (which was the PCM Taurus and the first Taurus plan on paper), was thoughtfully dated December 6,1961. The first flight is listed as "Thanksgiving 1961. Ed went to Africa April of 1962. From conversations with Dennis Hunt, I believe he was corresponding with Ed about the trip and sending those tapes, (proven), and controversial "pieces of brown paper" in the fall of 1961, (starting around October).

Given those assumptions, I'd say Dennis built the PCM Taurus a little behind Ed. The second version of the Taurus found in the crate...described as 1" longer...we concluded was built sometime during the winter, and completed prior to the Africa trip. Dennis's Taurus could have been that one, but I think it's more likely Dennis built the PCM "Meyer Plan" Taurus.

UStik..that's such a realistic simulation picture. Would you mind posting some others from different angles? It might be fun to get a "virtual" look at what we're building. How did you create those virtual views, (auf English bitte)?

Regarding the prototype. We expect to encounter, (and solve) a few more problems than usual because this is a kit engineered from scratch instead of an established plan. There may be some delays, so don't ecpect the prototypes to "fly together".

Duane

Sure Duane, I'll make as many as you want, just tell what views you need. And if you need special views you could do them yourself as well. In the simulator, the model and a suitable scenery is selected. Simulation is started and like in reality, with the transmitter, the model is taxied to a position where it is viewed from the right angle and where it is suitably lighted. Stop simulation (maybe stop engine before to see the prop), zoom to the size you want (with the mouse wheel), make a screen shot. Paste, crop and save in a picture editor.

Another way is to import the model file in the model editor RMK where you can turn it to all viewing angles including top view.

Most of these shots are made at a nice Austrian model flying field (virtually), the last two in Muncie.

By the way, the model is what I suppose was Ed's final version: 95" wingspan, tip-clipped, 1.75" wide ailerons, 4 degrees dihedral, ST60 or Veco 60 with 11x8 prop, small landing gear and wheels.

Here's how it looks in the air. Is this motivating?

Duane, you might be right. I was thinking that the correspondence was early 1962, after the Meyer plan. Sorry if I got it wrong, again. But still interesting that the next fella, even if he's a modeller, can't see the differences between the two versions even when side by side.
We are all still watching, with breath bated, for the next Simla update, don't keep us in suspense for too long now...
Evan.

I think you make a good point...you would have to know EXACTLY what to look for to be able to tell the difference between the PCM "Myers" Taurus and the kit version. Even someone familiar with the Taurus most likely wouldn't see the subtle differences, so it's not hard to imagine that Dennis Hunt would say "the two Taurus models in the crate looked identical..."

About the Simla prototypes, don't hold your breath too long at a time for a quick build. We decided to start on the stab, and soon found the laser-cut ribs were too short...short enough that they will need to either be hand-cut, or replaced. Due to the time, trouble and expense of waiting for new ribs, we will probably do our best to hand-cut and sand them to the proper length and approximate shape. We tried to think of a way to use the supplied ribs, but that would probably involve more time than hand-cutting.

That's why they call it a prototype.

From what I can remember from that period and I have to say it is hazy at times, Frank Meyers was a modeler who worked freelance doing drafting work on model airplanes plans for kit manufactures like Topflite and Carl Goldberg. The kit manufacturing business was not large enough to support a full time draftsman but there was a need to have accurate up-to-date drawings in order to produce a kit like the Taurus. I was associated with CG as a design consultant and Test Pilot on many of the early RC kits.
I have not seen a good large size copy of the Meyer plan but based on what I know of the kit manufacturing process, IMHO the Meyer drawing is in fact intended to be the manufacturing drawing for the kit. It would have been sent to the Tool & Die makers so that they could make the steel rule dies to punch out ribs and formers. It would also be used in the shop to make(cut) all the other parts in the kit. All the detail on the drawing necessary to manufacture the kit would also make it very suitable to be used by any experienced modeler to build from. If anyone has a good copy of the Meyer print in a file that they could send to me, I would to compare with some old drawings I have from that period.
I can also confirm that Kaz like many RC designers from that that period was making changes to their designs each time they built one. RC model designs were undergoing rapid development in the 60's. Even my personal Falcon 56 built from a kit out of the 1st production run was radically modified. I had flown all the prootypes and didn't need another standard Falcon 56.

John W
Scotttsdale, Az

If the Meyer plan was indeed the basis of the TF kit drawing, then someone must have redrawn it to both reflect the mods Ed made on his second Taurus, and to correct the errors on the original drawing. We have managed to preserve the Meyer plans through this thread, and build models from it, so if you ask Duane nicely I'm sure he would make a copy of it available, if you wish...
Evan.

Not necessarily. I don't have the time now to go down and have plans made up, but some people have been able to have plans made from these electronic files. There are indeed errors in the drawing, and a few of the dimensions are not the same as the kit. I can't remember exactly, but I believe the Myers plan may have the shortest length of all the Taurus versions. Is that right Evan?

Duane

Yep, basically right Duane, the Meyer dimensions are the same as the 1962 RCM&E drawing and is likely the plan Ed left in England on his way through to Africa. It is one inch shorter than the T/F version, and from memory about half an inch taller in the fuselage. The plan view of the wing does not match the fuselage cut out or the wing ribs. This has been corrected on the TF drawing and the ribs match the TF/MAN drawings so the Meyer plan is incorrect here. There are other minor differences, the tailplane section shown on the fuselage side elevation does not match the actual size of the tailplane at that point, but it is an easy matter to correct while building. The other differences include wheel sizes, and as we found, Ed's actual Taurus is 1/4" lower in fuselage elevation than the TF plan. So there are three differing versions if you wish to build them, and you can also build a 68" wing and mix up the fuselages and wings just to confuse everyone! I have a clean copy of the Meyer plan here, thanks Duane, and it can be copied, but it's along way twixt here and there...
Evan.

Ok, so where do the Model Airplane News plans fit in this question? Are they the same as the kit plans or are they based on the Meyer drawing? Or, are they a mix of the two?

I have looked at the files of the Meyer plan provided by Duane. Obviously there is nothing on the drawing that confirms that it was intended to be used for manufacturing the kit but again there is nothing that disproves my theory either. The drafting techniques and content in the drawing match a drawing that F. Meyer drew up for Carl Goldberg of a model that was being developed as a possible kit.
I could not find any record on the drawing of any changes having been made. I would have expected, based on experience with Meyer’s work and general drafting standards that changes would have listed in a drawing version list on the edge of the print. A possible explanation for the errors and the differences between this drawing and the kit version, is that the drawing is issue 1. Based on the date, it was prepared before Kaz had accumulated a significant amount of flight time on the prototype Taurus. The drawings could have been updated to correct errors and to include changes requested by Kaz prior to being released for production.
I of course, cannot prove my theory one way or the other. I only offer it as a plausible explanation for the drawing based on my own experience with some of Frank Meyer‘s work.

John W.
Scottsdale, Az

The MAN plans were released at the same time as the TF kit, and are identical other than the addition of the ribs and fuselage formers. The kit plans don't have these sections, cause they didn't need them...
So far as we can tell the Meyer drawings were based on Eds first 'Contest Model Taurus'. The drawing table indicates that it was drawn 'from life' as it were. The TF/MAN drawings illustrate Eds second Taurus, with the minor difference in fuselage height, as discussed. It is likely that the Meyer plan was the basis for the TF/MAN plan, the similarities are there, but I can't read the draughtsmans name (signature) in the TF title box.
Evan.

I think his name was spelled Myers not Meyers. My memory is hazy after all the intervening years.

John W