What a tremendous picture. This thread has been going on for a while and still there are new revelations and information. Now we know the original plan was drawn on December 6, 1961.

Having said that, I want to remind everyone that Dennis Hunt who hosted the Kazmirski trip to South Africa, said there were no plans for either Ed or himself when they constructed their planes. Ed communicated with Dennis by means of "crude drawings" and I recently learned, audiotapes. My best guess was that Ed was also communicating with Top Flite at the same time by sending the same drawings and tapes. When enough information came in, the plan was drawn.

That doesn't mean this plan was used to build the planes flown in Africa. Things took time back then. There was no "overnighting" Fed-Ex-ing of faxing. There was not enough time to build, paint, install the radio, test fly etc etc before the April trip to Africa was to begin. Ed built his own planes. The most important reason however for believing the original planes were built from "brown paper drawings" was because Dennis said so. I wasn't there, but he was.

The original drawing I suppose became the basis for the kit plan that was released a few months later.

Duane

I have pictures to post having to do with motor mount holes, fuselage construction details, and other "stuff"

Gents,

I am building the Wester Taurus, mostly a copy of the fuselage of auction 2 (without the sheeted stab and fin) and together with the wings of auction1.
A few of you maybe believe the same I am sure of, the K & B was the first engine in the Taurus fuse of Auction2. I show you that it is no difficult for me to repeat the method Ed did use.

During the drawing of my Wester Taurus I already take a close look to the contour of the nose.
I could see the level/location of the original K & B thrust line. Picture 1. It is the level of the line exact going through the most forward point of the fuselage.
Of cours I have to copy this level in my own plan.

Now I did see the pictures from Duane it is clear what I already mentioned in Post 691 page 28.

>>>>
It is possible Ed did use an adaptorplate on one moment between fuselage and engine for the fuselage of auction 2?
>>>>

When we look closely at picture 1 we can estimate this plate was about 8mm thick.

By using this plate, Ed could change easy the thrust line of the engine by modify the plate.
I have made a new drawing of the plate as was used originally by Ed for his K & B 0.45. Picture 2

Design this plate also was possible because of Ray did have again all the dimension!
I think Ray must have an archive, better than all the USA members together!

When we take a close look at picture 3, we see that the original thrust line from the K & B goes exact through the centre line of the fuselage and that is the only right way.

And look what I did write in post 705 page 29
>>>>
When I see the distances the VECO and SUPER Tigre both where mounted on the right side in the fuselage, is that right? Normally we built in the engine on the left side so the trustline from the propeller goes through the centre line.
>>>>
VECO and Super Tiger both were, on an experimental way, mounted in the fuselage of Auction 2, How about that!

Picture 4 and 5 I did make a projection of the plate in the engine room.
Last picture 6, Exhaust of the K & B , was there, but wood is replaced by Ed and we still see a crack!

So members I again did repair a little time of the history, I hope you do not forget.
I will use the plate in my Wester Taurus again, so when I have time the next post probably will be:
How to design your own adaptor plate for your new Taurus!

Cees

is rcu translating for us when taurus flyer posts? the lack of perfect english isn't the reason for asking, just all of the >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >.

david

David,

I only repeat a little part of my message in the past >>>.
I did edit the post, is it better this way?
Most of the words I check with English United Kingdom, what would be better?


Cees

It is certainly possible for an adapter plate to work, assuming we have mounted the Veco and Super Tigre first, and we now want to use a K&B. Although it is possible to do what you describe, it is not logical to make an "adapter plate" for the first engine used.

If the K&B was the first engine used in the Taurus, Ed would not have drilled the holes for a ST .60, (which didn't exist back then), or the Veco 45, (whichever holes correspond to the 26mm X 45mm holes). The original holes in the motor mounts would have been for the K&B unless Ed had an awful lot of foresight to see ahead to bigger engines.

To be fair, it may be possible, since the K&B is small, that an adapter plate was needed for the engine to fit. I have done this on some of my older planes back then...but then Ed was very "LUCKY" to happen to choose the hold-down screws, (into the motor mounts), for the plate in the exact position of a Veco or ST.

It could be Ed started with a K&B, KNOWING he was about to use a Veco 45, but then why use the K&B at all?

There ARE two pushrods, one on each side...we need to explain why this is the case if Cees is NOT correct. Who knows??[&:]

I guess almost anything is possible.

Duane

cees, i was just commenting on all of the >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>symbols that appear in your posts. it may be the RCU translation service putting those symbols in your posts. you may not even be aware that they are there. i think some japanese build threads i've seen has the same issue. nothing to worry about.

david

Hello David,

Clear, I did it myself!.

So gentlemen, I need your advice.

For a moment you are my “gang� and want your advice, but remember, I only acting to make things clear to Duane.

Building my Wester Taurus I can use my

OPS 0.40
Webra 6,5 ccm Blackhead (made in Germany Ray, on the Crankcase).

To make my adaptor plate I can make my choice between the following 0.60, 10 ccm engines:

Webra Speed 10 CCM (made in Austria Ray, on the crankcase)
Super Tigre G60
OPS RC 60
OS Max 61 FX
MOKI 10 RC
MVVS 10 ccm

All the engines are in excellent condition

What would I do? (I also could imagine myself Ed did ask this on Les Fruh, in the past!)

Do you see Duane it is no problem to look in the future! I also have "a awful lot of foresight to see ahead to bigger engines".


Only, you did forget the advantage of an adaptor plate in the plane of an inventor on the moment he knows the engine he already owns and the engine he want to have and/or wants to use, in the future!
Because the distances you also can ask on Ray if not you already have the engine.

Why?
Because on that important contest, of during the Africa trip, you must be able to mount every engine in your contest plane you own.
That was one of the reasons I did tell you in the past, maybe also he did not use his proportional plane because also the engine of this plane was not the best he did have!(His GOOD OLD K & B 45)
Look back I the theads many, many weeks ago!

BTW Ray tell my about the difference between the old K & B and new VECO

Cees

As they should - see page 25 post #614


I can supply copies of the full magazine reviews for both if you wish but will need your e mail address to send as pdf attachments.

Ray

Hello Ray,

I wanted to let you that I did not forget that.
I learned it from you.

Ray, I would like that very much, the reviews, I will send you a PM

Cees

The following is a revised timeline compiled from earlier versionsI believe it is accurate? I changed slightly the time of the "carrier photos" from AFTER the world championships to BEFORE the W.C. I did this because I noticed on the Flying Models cover that the FAI stickers were not on the plane at that point. This model was to be the backup for the 1963 worlds

August 1959 US Nats. (Modified Astro Hog 2nd)

June 1960 Orion plans published

July 1960 W/C Switzerland. Orion wins

November 1960 Orion kit released

August 1961 US Nats. (modified Orion/ first "experimental" Taurus with long nose moment/short tail moment- not happy)

December 6, 1961 First formal Taurus plan drawn

April 1962 Eds Africa tour. (Starts April 17 for three weeksTaurus used).

May 1962 Tauri kit released

August 1962 US Nats. Taurus wins

October 1962 Taurus plan published in RCM&E

December 1962 Taurus kit released

January 1963 Taurus plan/article published in MAN

July 1963 Ed skips 1963 NATS

August 1963 Carrier flights (demonstrates dunhams' Orbit proportional with Taurus-2 flown with original thicker wing)

August 21,1963 W/C Belgium. Reed Taurus 3rd. (Back-up is Taurus-2 with thick wing and early proportional radio)

April 1964 Tauri plan published

August 1964 US Nats. (Taurus-2 with Taurus regular thickness 2419 modified, and tapered-wing with straight L.E.)

August 1965 US Nats. Simla? used

I DO consider myself fortunate. It's also quite a responsibility to try to properly care for Ed's planes.

Thanks Ray and John for you excellent pictures of the most likely engines. Just for completeness sake, do you have a picture of the Fox .59 and mounting hole dimensions for that engine. I'd appreciate it just to be sure.

Duane

John's engine picture as attachment

Gents, for who is interested.

The engine room of the Wester Taurus I detailed for mounting the Webra 6,5 ccm
This engine is about 35, maybe even 40 years old and never run a moment.

The dimensions of the adaptor plate are chosen for the OS Max 61 FX and MVVS 10CCM.

When using the 10CCM engine I have to do this with a light silencer because of the SG, so, only for experimental purposes! (and in the middle of nowhere.)

What would be the noise of the planes of Ed and Les, never seeing they did use a hearing protection equipment, and that without any silencer!
Yèèèssss the good old Taurusses only the weight was few/little!

Cees

Cees,

Your drawings for the the Wester Taurus are excellent! I am now finishing a Taurus from a Top Flite kit powered by an O.S. 0.45 FSR. I would very much like to build a facsimile of the Proportional Taurus as a companion for my Top Flite Taurus.
Will you be making your drawings available to others? I would like to buy a set.

Thank you,

John

John,

Thank you for compliments,

What do you mean with:

“facsimile of the Proportional Taurus�,

The Wester Taurus is a reconstruction of the maybe ever existing and in the past Oldest Taurus on Earth, .

And this Taurus never did fly with proportionals in the past, only reeds.

I first will built this Taurus by studying the photographical remains.
Next step is to fly and check if this really could be a appearance of the first Taurus from Ed Kazmirski.
To prove that, it had to fly without extra weight in the nose or tail (or nearly because of the silencer), because also Ed would never had to do that, I know for sure.
When that’s finished, I will make a flight report of that I let you all know.
Also the measured values of air speed are important to know, the story of the “constant speed�,
Story 684 page 28, just as down and side thrust of the engine.
At last I want to give you the possibility to built the plane your own to bring out plans or on another way, but first I want to finish the complete building and flying program. That’s my goal.

Flying will take place next summer or earlier. This is also depending from workload.
When designing the plane now, I am convinced that it is a beautiful plane.
The wing will nearly be the same as from your Top Flite Taurus only less dihedral because of the less fuselage height. I will use the threated hangings also. And maybe elastic bands to mount the wing.

Because the lower resistance of the fuselage I think the 6,5 CCM engine will be “more than enough�.
The horizontal tailplane does have less diagonals than the Top Flite Taurus, I did find out with the crate picture.

So John, that’s the story, and now yours, do me show some pictures please, we are all very interested.
And maybe in the future we are the only two Ed Kazmirski's Taurus pilots of that moment, or not?
When will you fly the plane?

Cees

I noticed your plans call for modern interior dowel and mounting bolts instead of dowels and rubber bands. I know it's a big mess to use them, but to be authentic, you need the dowels and rubber bands, so I'm glad you are considering them.

I think I know what you mean when you say it never flew on proportional, but if my Taurus-2 fuselage is part of the "oldest Taurus on earth", then it DID FLY later on a proportional radio, but with a different wing, and stab thickness....correct? Is that what you mean?

I know you didn't specifically ask for them, but to double-check fuselage accuracy, let me give you a few more measurements from the fuselage. Since the fuse should be the same except for the stabilizer and wing, these figures should all be the same as mine in your fuselage.

Height:
130 mm from top to bottom at the front of the wing saddle, (L.E.)
110 mm " " " " " " rear of the wing saddle. (T.E.)
84 mm from top to bottom at the point where the fin begins

Length from the bottom tip of the fuselage, (where it meets the bottom of the rudder) to the nose is 47-1/2 inches (I don't have a measuring tape that long in mm).

My fuselage weighs 1 lb 9.8 oz silked and doped and with a 2-1/4" nosewheel. If you use contest balsa as Ed did, yours should even weigh less due to the fabric covered, non-sheeted, and thinner stab.

One question...What do you mean when you say the "horizontail tailplane does have less diagonals than the Top Flite Taurus..."? What do my mean "less diagonals".

Good luck in your building and flying

Duane

Duane,
It is right, my configuration, if it exists, never did fly with proportional, only reeds.
The weight also will be less than the Top Flite Taurus and that again is interesting.
I can use it as a glider I think!

The former near the wing LE will get a position to use dowels just like the original TF Taurus, then it is much easier to change the mounting to bolts if I want to.
More to the front.

Thank you for the measured values.
I have to scale up my drawing about 2 a 2.5%. Nearly all the values are oké than.
All the proportions already are oké.
My fuselage length was 47� so I ad ½�.

About the diagonals, these are the wing ribs in the stab.
Orion 8
Taurus 9
W Taurus will have 7, only with that count of ribs the hangings of the elevator of the crate Taurus are near the positions of the ribs on the spar, and that’s better.
I think Ed did do it this way also himself.

I just started also with making the construction drawings; I did show you the leading, configuration (imaging?) drawings on the pictures in the past.

I will keep you informed

Cees

Duane,

Fox 59 RC mounting hole dimensions - 19mm X 46mm

Ray

Gents,

For who is interested in the electronics in the my Top Flite Taurus.
Test flight with the videolink with videopictures from the screen on the ground.
Testplane 7,5 CC MVVS Jonny, (replica, kitted by WIK, 1968?)
"Teletube Test, right side Vario, left side altimeter", in members video.
Goal, fly the Taurus by videolink just I already did with this Jonny for short moments.

Video:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/mvp/videolink.cfm?postid=5593

Leds left side: altimeter, bottom LED collision with trees possible, so warning.
Right side, central LEDS burnig horizontal flight path, top LED climbing, bottom LED decline.


Cees

RAY ...YOU ARE THE GREATEST. THANKS

Pretty close to the 21 X 46 Veco, (I think). Now which one, the of them, (Supertigre 56/60 or Fox .59) looks the most like the engine in my Dad's, (from Belfast), picture??? Please vote ...I'm having a hard time deciding.

Duane

Hi Duane

I vote for the Supertigre being the engine in your picture. The Fox engine had a more rounded head and a glow plug on the left side. I just don't ever remember seeing one of the Fox engines in that time period. Just not a popular choice for Pattern use.

John W.

Duane, my vote: post 586 page 24.


Fox 59 was also there, on the lawn-mower!


Cees

I stand by my previous comments

Ray

In this thread I have mentioned that Dennis Hunt, (see post 298 p 12), who made all the arrangements for Ed's South Africa tour in April of 1962 and I are both SPA members. He lives about two hours from me in Knoxville, Tennessee. Yesterday I drove to Knoxville to show him the Ed Kazmirski Taurus-2, (with both wings), and the unfinished fuselage discussed on this thread. We also test flew a new Daddy Rabbit Dennis built for me some time ago, so the trip had two purposes.

I am sure this will not change any minds, but for the record, I want to tell everyone that Dennis carefully examined the fuselage that some believe to be on the right side of the crate, and the oldest Taurus fuse. While it HAS been 46 years, (hard to believe), but Dennis said that, even allowing for the possible replacement of the stab, that because of the difference in shape of the fuse, he is sure that that particular fuselage was NOT in the crate and one of Ed's planes that were brought to South Africa in April.

We DO absolutely KNOW the Taurus-2 fuselage, with the thick wing known as the "carrer wing" WAS in the crate as Ed's back up plane for the 1963 World Championships a little over a year later. We know this because of the FAI stickers with a Bengian stamp on BOTH the fuselage and "Carrier wing".

If Dennis remembers correctly, the Taurus-2 was built in an attempt to improve the original Taurus sometime after the NATS in 1962 and Worlds in 1963. It all depends if whether or not what he says is believed as accurate or not.

This point has been argued extensively in this thread, and unless there is new evidence, there is no need for further debate, but I DID feel that Dennis's testimony is new evidence that needs to be reported.

Dennis is going to try to find additional pictures taken during the tour. They are with his son. It may be a month or two before the son visits, so we'll see if there is anything new to report later.

Duane