RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

Bob,

If the thread was off topic then the entire thread should have been removed and not just one members post. Keep in mind a thread that is on topic but slightly strays we most often keep as is and let it get back on course on its own. Imagine if we nuked every off topic post or comment that seems tp pepper most threads at one point or another? It would not be much fun here for me or you.

Hopefully Al will come back and not take one action, right or wrong in his eyes, and hold that against rcu or the modeling community. What forum was this post in? AMA? It seems this forum is a hotbed of conflict especially for the older members in the rc community. I do not know if this is the forum you are referring to but if I had to place one bet that is where it would be :)

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

EGGZACTLY

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

I'm sorry Bob, but some of what I'm reading in your last two posts appears to be the epitome of arrogance. Play or pass sounds an awful lot like "it's my ball so it's my rules". They are of course but rubbing someone's nose in it does not make them want to play. Just the opposite if you can see the truth.

Bear in mind as you chase the old timers away that much of the reason others come to a forum is to obtain knowledge from the old timers. Those with the experience pass on to those who don't. Those who don't have the expreience are the lions share of product buyers. They are the ones getting into the hobby and buying shopping carts full of stuff from all the advertisers based largely on what the old timers tell them to buy. Think not? Ask a couple of manufacturers how many containers of product have been sold based on my recommendations. That's $$$ to any advertiser and the only reason they are in business. Other old timers have the same ability simply because they have the knowledge, tell the truth, and convey it effectively. Most all of them have already been named somewhere in this thread. The guy you just helped out the door designs and makes engines. A tremendous knowledge bank wasted, and for what?

When the old timers go somewhere else to play it doesn't take very long for many of the newbies to join them there. Then more follow. Now who's advertisers get the sales dollars? That's what this forum is really about isn't it? Dollars? Without the advertisers getting the sales there is no reason for them to pay to stay here, but they most definately will go to where the dollars are. So keep up the good work and the "my ball, my rules" attitude will empty the playing field.

Now that's my view on the subject and I'm sticking to it. If I'm to be punished for having a personal view so be it. I'll only be punished once. For me this is recreational to get away from the hard parts of my work plus I enjoy helping others. There's no dollars in it for me. Where I play is determined by several things, and the level of moderation is one of them. Being able to tell the truth and not hedge facts is another.

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

Pat - If only everyone kept in mind this very simple sentence above you wrote before they started posting it would probably lend perspective in those heat of the moment arguments and clear away at least half of the "bad" posts that are made. This site was built by me one day when I wanted to get back in the hobby and not a decent site existed. I wanted to have fun and a site where I could converse with like minded rc modelers. It amazes me when people get so carried away and stop the fun and make this into life or death stuff. I somehow doubt if anyone was in their final moments laying on their death bed that they would be the least bit concerned about anything that was posted here that got their goat on one particular day.

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

Well, you're right, it should have but it wasn't. I pushed very hard just to see if that would happen but the only people censored were the ones arguing against the AMA's illegal actions. Was it the moderator's fault? Absolutely not. Ken is a fair and good man with a world of experience in this hobby and this site. I just got the opinion very early from reading others comments on the thread that there are two or three individuals on there who can pretty much "do no wrong" in the eyes of RCU. They don't seem to know a damn thing about a airplane but that wouldn't matter because they never take the time to come to the other forums and try and help people. Seems they are only here to help themselves. Well RCU I'm glad you like and support those folks so much. Maybe sometime you can get them to actually help someone on here. Personally I did not mean to cause such a ruckass by leaving. The way I see it, my planes fly great, my engines run great, I have one of, if not the best 3D expert in the country in my club, and I have the personal e-mail addresses of the friends I've made on here should I need some advice. They have mine and are welcome to use it anytime. Sorry for the trouble but after spending 22 years in the United States Air Force I'm just not into selective censorship. Good bye and good luck to you all. I will now return my son's log-in back to him. I couldn't log into mine, it's closed. Thanks again.

Al Lewis

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

..

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

Well, to add a little humor, "or" should have been "of". Damn, did it again:eek: I really thought I caught all the typos......

All in all I think everything that needed to be said has been well covered and points made on all sides. The question is whether or not we all will learn from it. It is a hobby, it is supposed to be fun. Unfortunately our times have turned much of what used to be recreational and fun into fun but serious. That seems to have creeped into every form of what's viewed as fun today. There is no true relaxation left that's performed in an upright position.

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

Bob - RCU was never a not for profit entity before the acquisition. I don't know of many sites with significant traffic in this space that are non-profit nor do I believe that has any bearing on the quality of the site. If anything a well funded site has the resources to offer more to the visitors. Would google, myspace, facebook or yahoo be better off if they were non-profit? Of course not. There are a few sites out there that claim to be all about the vibe and the hobby. Don't believe the hype. Check out the ads on the pages and someday I'll show people the messages I get from those other sites asking to get bought....by us.

Al - Sorry to see you go. I didn't know you. I didn't even know of you. I'm not sure who these invincible posters are here that you mention but perhaps somebody will point them out to me. Also, we didn't close your account so I assume you must have or you have a cookie login issue of some kind. If you change your mind in the future of course let us know and our staff will be happy to make sure your account is activated and working properly again.

marc

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

Well it sure looks like to me a lot of good advice...good times...good people are being lost here on RCU. I do not see nearly as many even reading some threads. I also understand it must be a tuff job for a moderator. The moderation and its rules could maybe be changed a bit. We as viewers reading and posting need to do so in a more friendly way. You got to be friendly...to have friends! Moderators...would it be possible to have a rule that people posting need to go back and edit there post themselves and correct the NOT so GOOD wording they placed there. That should give the Moderators less work too. It is easy to go back and edit and change the wording. I am sure a lot of people , after reading and thinking about it ...edit the not so good stuff. Some of you Guys on here could actually say your sorry to the one you offended. It takes a BIG man to say "I AM SORRY" lets try again to be true brothers in this great hobby. Best Regards, Capt,n

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

On a positive note though RCU is at record posting and traffic levels in 08! We are getting a new post here better than 1 every 15 seconds (that is just the forum..doesn't include all the posts in classifieds). We are also seeing record daily visitors and page views. Whatever we are losing doesn't seem to be dropping the numbers on the site. This is the most activity that RCU has seen since it has opened the doors on every single measurable metric.

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

This is kind of an interesting topic for me... it's no secret I have spent a lot of time being sometimes overly outspoken, although I have made an active effort to tone it down greatly in the last few months :D

So speaking from my own experience I think a lot of what you are asking for john does happen. I have been asked to reword posts over my time here instead of them just being deleted. I actually dont recall a time when my post was just deleted unless it was deleted because the post I responded to was deleted. In that case it only makes sense for my post to get deleted.

It's a shame to see someone like Al go.. but I am curious if there was a debate with the moderator before that happened? I mean when a ticket is created the people involved can respond to it or all the mods do receive pms. I hope Al takes the time to talk to the mod involved and maybe they can agree to disagree or even maybe the mod was wrong and will admit it. Either way I would hope a small fight would not cause him to leave permently.

I have seen from time to time moderators let things with "friends" slide a bit too far and while I dont agree with it.. it all comes back we are only human. I can tell you there are some mods who really do their job right no matter what.. one in particular I am friends with.. but when I step out of line he will come right at me regardless of our relationship. I respect that greatly. I think the mods need to remove friendship from the equation. Best boss I ever had would yell at me like no tomorrow if I did something wrong or was late... come 5pm he was the one buying the first round. Work was work, friendship and afterhrs what just that.

Have things been a bit over moderated lately? I think maybe a bit.. I am not sure why but I have seen it happen. Regardless of that RCU is a great place and I hope those with teh knowledge stay around and share info with as they have been doing. It's like money.. when you die you cant take it with you! :D

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

RCadmin: Its good to hear about the record hits on RCU. It may be because of the rapid interest in small electric airplanes or all the instant video people like to see. I even got caught up in the hipe on electric airplanes and have one and flow it several times. I still cannot wait until warm weather to fly the bigger stuff. In five years...electrics may be on the way out and on the good side, all the guys who bought em will step into some real nice big aircraft. I do not see any reply to my last post! How can you help gas engine forums and other particular forums that are loosing expertize? Thanks Capt,n[:o]

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

Easy; Hire Joe Hunt to be in charge of advertising.

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

Marc,
I disagree. Take a look in the Vintage and Antique Forum. The Waco YMF thread is over 5000 entries, and over 200 pages. It has never been moderated, and is one of the most successful threads on the RCUniverse. The reason? We police the thread ourselves. We stop things before they get out of hand. We do this because we care about the thread. You might consider using it as an example of how to keep moderation at a minimum. If a moderator tried to moderate this thread with some of the heavier hands that I have seen elsewhere, I would request closing down and removing the thread.

I used to visit the AMA forums on a regular basis. There is a group that has been mentioned here in this thread, who I often refer to as the Fantastic Five. If you would like, I will be happy to name them here. These miscreants never post anywhere else but on the AMA forum. In fact, they have never posted a photo of a model airplane that they have built and successfully flown. If one speaks out in favor of anything that the AMA is doing, or has done, they immediately join ranks and belittle whatever is posted in positive response to the AMA. I personally have asked the moderator to take action, but other than the occasional removal of a post, there has been no meaningful action taken against these varmints. Things such as these are the reason that you see those people who have been named leaving. The fight is not worth the effort.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

Gee, I guess I'm one of the few who doesn't have any complaints about RCU. Every issue I've brought to the attention of the Moderators has been dealt with - quickly and fairly, IMO. My posts have been edited only once that I know of - due to the use of a disallowed word. I thought it was kinda silly, but I didn't gripe - those are the rules.

And THAT'S the bottom line. The owner of a forum has the exclusive right to run it in the way they choose, especially if it's free. There are two old adages that apply here:

"If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."
"It may be crooked, but it's the only game in town."

An alternative is for a disgruntled former RCU member to start their own forum and run it the way THEY want it run. Remember, you want absolutely free-from-moderation posting, and completely objective discipline. Can YOU do that? Good f'ing luck!

Sounds like a lot of crybabys boo-hooing when they got their hand slapped. Grow up, people! Let's TRY to be adults. All you need to do is follow the rules. Disagree without being disagreeable. Don't get personal in an argument. Keep the language clean, women and kids read this, too. If you state something, have the facts ready to back it up. Yea, sometimes it's irritating to be challenged on something you've done successfully for 20 years, but a newbie doesn't know. He may be getting oppoaite advice from fellow pilots at his club. Who should he believe?

Do we repeat a lot of subjects? Yes, unfortunately, we do. I just posted on yet ANOTHER "building bench" thread. It's about the umpteenth one I've seen since I joined RCU. I have several FAQ answers in text files that all I have to do is copy and paste. Should the askers look up previous posts? Sure, but sometimes they don't. I don't mind repeating myself as long as someone is listening. At least they're asking questions and not running off and doing it their way, which may be wrong and/or dangerous. And on that subject, sometimes there are several ways to do something. None are "wrong", just different. Allow for that. Most things are not set in stone.

Who can make RCU a better forum? The Administrator? No! The Moderators? No! It's the MEMBERS! Do your job and they won't have to do theirs.

Dr.1

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

Quote from Dr1Driver: Who can make RCU a better forum? The Administrator? No! The Moderators? No! It's the MEMBERS! Do your job and they won't have to do theirs.

Reply:
This is what I was geting at in post #34...Members please do your job. Thanks Capt,n

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

In five years giant scale electrics will be common place there already common in the 60-90 class in a few short years
I was shocked at how many people are making the change to electrics

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

Off topic posts are a damned if you do and damned if you don't area. How is a moderator to determine when the members are enjoying digressions from the original topic or not? There is no way to figure that out unless you let it go and watch for enjoyment factors or irritation. To just jump in and insist on getting back to the original topic when people seem to enjoy how things are going would be excessive moderation in my view. However, I have no problem redirecting a discussion if people complain or ask for that.

I happen to disagree about handling questions from members new to RCU or gas engines. I believe in being friendly and fair to everyone. It hurts nobody to be kind and friendly to someone who is trying to learn and just starting out. Yes, it is repetitive, but what's the harm in making people feel welcome?

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

I have no issues with that either, but there are times that rather than spend the next 45 minutes repeating an oft repeated answer I'll suggest a search for the answer. A perfect example is the one about the engine that performs poorly inverted or in knife edge or how do I tune a gasser. It helps when people learn how to use tools that are available. Give them a fish and they are fed for the day, give them a fishing pole and they are fed for many days. Makes sense. yes?

However, there have been many times when someone provided the correct answer but because it was not an answer the inquirer liked or expected they came off the wall and railed against the person responding. An example is when an engine well known to have issues in certain areas is described accordingly and the inquirer goes off because "they have the best product you can have". Those of that ilk can jump in the lake and well deserve what they get.

Then you have the people who's living revolves around engines (manufacturer/distributor specific or not) and performance and moderators severely restrict the passing of knowledge from these people to others becasue that information doesn't agree with the position of an advertiser. Many that come here want to know what works, what doesn't, what works for a long time, what won't. Frequently the answers to those questions cannot be supplied with a simple name and engine size but requires further description to jusitfy the why of the answer. Sorry to say, but with some manufacturers politics and economics do have an impact on engine performance and longevity. That's a fact of life in some areas of the world, one just needs to have done the research to know it.

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

Pat,

I agree with everything you are saying. Makes sense to me.

There are nice ways to direct someone new to the right threads, or to give short answers. Also, PMs work too and that prevents clutter in the threads. Don't get me wrong, I agree about it being repetitious. Still, I do believe that we should all be friendly and welcoming to everyone. It's just a price we all pay to be decent people. It isn't for everyone and everyone isn't bound to chip in and help either.

I really agree with you about those new to anything asking questions and members and moderators spending time helping them out, only for hear that we don't know what we are talking about and they chucking our advice. That has happened a number of times. What to do about that? I usually tend to walk away from it since they asked and I tried to help. Since I'm in all of the Engine threads daily, I get more than a dose of it and I see it happen to a lot of people. It will never change. We give our time to help out someone when they ask but they don't like our answers. My theory is that they will either come around and get sensible later on, or they couldn't be helped in the first place.

Pat, there are vendors who help anyone with any brand of product. We have a ton of those guys in Engines, especially Gas Engines. Then, there are those few who have agendas to only push their products. It isn't right to sell one brand and always criticize any other type. There is no other way to put it and be honest. I could name a long list of the good guys who don't mind separating their commercial interests from their desire to help all regardless of where the money flows. The few who have their commercial interests as the only priority ruin it for the others. Then, there will always be vendors who only post on RCU to push their products. They contribute little, if anything past that.

I'm going to be honest about advertising, and I already know that this is going to fall on some deaf ears because people have made up their minds and won't listen to any reason at all. There is no push, emphasis, or hint of supporting anyone or any manufacturer. None. Zilch. Nada. People can believe that or not. I would quit as a moderator in a heartbeat and let the world know the details if anyone ever hinted about swaying any opinion or duty. I've been around most of the moderators on RCU in one form or another, and I'm willing to bet my house, car, the farm, and anything else that this has never happened on RCU.

Bashing products and manufacturers is bad for everyone. I've had to caution and edit bashers of products when I agree with their views. The name of the game is to be fair across the board, even when it goes against my own feelings. This is usually a judgement call. Mistakes are made. I try to be fair and honest to all concerned and accept that moderators will never get it 100% right 100% of the time.

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

Good discussion guy's. I like threads that progress in this fashion.
Every now and then you need something to make you smile in an in depth exchange, the quote down below really made me chuckle:)

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

If I see a post with no reply and it has been there for some time....I try to give a awswer or direct them to a place where they may find a answer to there question. Sometimes I just tell em "hang on" someone will give a good reply. I think that keeps new persons from feeling that they are not being avoided. Remember...you got to be friendly...if you want to have friends. Capt,n;)

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

..

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

Thats probably the biggest change I have noticed over the years, more advertising less freedom of speech, RCU didnt always use to be that way.
There are other forums that are not quite as heavy handed that work quite well and the missing persons are to be found there.

The search function on this forum leaves a lot to be desired, maybe thats why some dont use it

RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
 

Right on Bob!!