JC 60cc Engine
11-27-2010, 03:07 PM
#51
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RE: JC 60cc Engine
T.O.M. you are absolutely spot on in your post.
What I struggle with understanding though is how this has become this way?
I don't know US consumer protection law at all but I do know that in Australia, consumers are afforded a set statutory warranty on all industrial goods. This warranty is the responsibility of the manufacturer, not the dealer who sold the actual item.
Furthermore, if it can be shown the item was not "fit for purpose" when it was sold to the consumer, there is no finite end date to that statutory warranty.
A manufacturer cannot avoid his obligations by selling through a bunch of different dealers.
It has been a long time since I lived in the States but I would be surprised if there isn't someting similar there.
Here is Aus, this is determined at the Federal level as a base line and the individual States then have their own set on top of that.
I used to work at a major manufacturer of whitegoods some years ago and this was very much in the discussion. As the manufacturer, we actually had to hold parts (or as a minimum, molds and patterns for parts) for up to the maximum anticipated lifespan of our products. Looks like this is not the case with model engines, huh?
Or, like you correctly mention - the geographical distance and legal complexities may be used to protect those manufacturers
What I struggle with understanding though is how this has become this way?
I don't know US consumer protection law at all but I do know that in Australia, consumers are afforded a set statutory warranty on all industrial goods. This warranty is the responsibility of the manufacturer, not the dealer who sold the actual item.
Furthermore, if it can be shown the item was not "fit for purpose" when it was sold to the consumer, there is no finite end date to that statutory warranty.
A manufacturer cannot avoid his obligations by selling through a bunch of different dealers.
It has been a long time since I lived in the States but I would be surprised if there isn't someting similar there.
Here is Aus, this is determined at the Federal level as a base line and the individual States then have their own set on top of that.
I used to work at a major manufacturer of whitegoods some years ago and this was very much in the discussion. As the manufacturer, we actually had to hold parts (or as a minimum, molds and patterns for parts) for up to the maximum anticipated lifespan of our products. Looks like this is not the case with model engines, huh?
Or, like you correctly mention - the geographical distance and legal complexities may be used to protect those manufacturers
11-27-2010, 03:13 PM
#52
RE: JC 60cc Engine
Here is another one and true one.
Dealer A starts selling engines and later has a problem with the engines, Manufacture sends some parts until dealer B says he has had dealer A cut off from getting parts and can only get them through dealer B who really has no parts at all.
30-45 day’s later, Dealer B is gone and we have dealer C who only wants to deal with the new engine manufacture is making and basically tells all old customers to shove it, they will only cover engines they have sold.
Now what will happen when Dealer C is gone and we have dealer D. ???????
And the Merry Go Round goes around and around and around.
Milton
Dealer A starts selling engines and later has a problem with the engines, Manufacture sends some parts until dealer B says he has had dealer A cut off from getting parts and can only get them through dealer B who really has no parts at all.
30-45 day’s later, Dealer B is gone and we have dealer C who only wants to deal with the new engine manufacture is making and basically tells all old customers to shove it, they will only cover engines they have sold.
Now what will happen when Dealer C is gone and we have dealer D. ???????
And the Merry Go Round goes around and around and around.
Milton
11-27-2010, 04:38 PM
#53
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RE: JC 60cc Engine
Ari and Milton,
We don't have that level of consumer protection over here. It's more of a E Caveat Emptor (let the buyer beware) type of thing until the product or service hits certain levels or areas. There has to be specific legislation for those kind of implied warranties to be in force. However, product liability is another story. If a product fails and hurts someone you'd best to not be standing in the way of the attorneys. You'll get trampled quickly. Unfortunately the seller would be the one stuck with product liability costs since the manufacturers would be unreachable.
The U.S. hobby market in the U.S. is nothing compared to the Sam's and WalMart retail outlets. Toss in all the other goods imported from China, along with the fact that China has bought up ungodly amounts of the U.S. debt and you can understand why a mouse doesn't want to upset the lion. I hate to put it that way but that's what we've let it become in the constant quest for cheaper and cheaper goods. People are very short sighted and narrow in focus. They could not comprehend that what they were doing yesterday set the stage for today. You see it almost daily in this forum with people posting a thread essentially saying "Has anyone tried the new badda badda boom engines selling for $0.98 at so and so?" The only thing they see is a price, and the first 5 answers they get are from people selling the crap. From that point on sales are booming and problems are developing.
Better still, you get the guy that says he got a badda badda boom engine because of how cheap they were so he thought he'd post some run reports for people to see. Little do people realize he's a shill for the person selling the engines. Run reports on an engine with at best only a couple of hours running time are worthless but people fall for it every time. They see a video of a little airplane being flown with a little engine and get all excited. They don't undestand they could go out to the garage and tear apart their weedeater and do as good or better.
Now there is but one course of action, which is not to buy until the manufacturers man up, but it will not be done[
] The Chinese know this. Our purchasing public has become so used to buying based on price, with little attention to quality. They cannot, or will not, change. They will insist they have a right to buy as cheaply as they can and that nobody should be able to interfere with that. Then they'll say they have a right to participate in certain activities even if those activities are unaffordable to them. The crash of outr economy was proof of that but the lesson still hasn't been learned.
P.T. Barnum said it well a long time ago when he said there was a sucker born every minute. As long as that remains true there will be an unscrupulous person to sell something to them that was not worth having.
We don't have that level of consumer protection over here. It's more of a E Caveat Emptor (let the buyer beware) type of thing until the product or service hits certain levels or areas. There has to be specific legislation for those kind of implied warranties to be in force. However, product liability is another story. If a product fails and hurts someone you'd best to not be standing in the way of the attorneys. You'll get trampled quickly. Unfortunately the seller would be the one stuck with product liability costs since the manufacturers would be unreachable.
The U.S. hobby market in the U.S. is nothing compared to the Sam's and WalMart retail outlets. Toss in all the other goods imported from China, along with the fact that China has bought up ungodly amounts of the U.S. debt and you can understand why a mouse doesn't want to upset the lion. I hate to put it that way but that's what we've let it become in the constant quest for cheaper and cheaper goods. People are very short sighted and narrow in focus. They could not comprehend that what they were doing yesterday set the stage for today. You see it almost daily in this forum with people posting a thread essentially saying "Has anyone tried the new badda badda boom engines selling for $0.98 at so and so?" The only thing they see is a price, and the first 5 answers they get are from people selling the crap. From that point on sales are booming and problems are developing.
Better still, you get the guy that says he got a badda badda boom engine because of how cheap they were so he thought he'd post some run reports for people to see. Little do people realize he's a shill for the person selling the engines. Run reports on an engine with at best only a couple of hours running time are worthless but people fall for it every time. They see a video of a little airplane being flown with a little engine and get all excited. They don't undestand they could go out to the garage and tear apart their weedeater and do as good or better.
Now there is but one course of action, which is not to buy until the manufacturers man up, but it will not be done[
] The Chinese know this. Our purchasing public has become so used to buying based on price, with little attention to quality. They cannot, or will not, change. They will insist they have a right to buy as cheaply as they can and that nobody should be able to interfere with that. Then they'll say they have a right to participate in certain activities even if those activities are unaffordable to them. The crash of outr economy was proof of that but the lesson still hasn't been learned.P.T. Barnum said it well a long time ago when he said there was a sucker born every minute. As long as that remains true there will be an unscrupulous person to sell something to them that was not worth having.
11-27-2010, 04:51 PM
#54
RE: JC 60cc Engine
ORIGINAL: apalsson
T.O.M. you are absolutely spot on in your post.
What I struggle with understanding though is how this has become this way?
I don't know US consumer protection law at all but I do know that in Australia, consumers are afforded a set statutory warranty on all industrial goods. This warranty is the responsibility of the manufacturer, not the dealer who sold the actual item.
Furthermore, if it can be shown the item was not "fit for purpose" when it was sold to the consumer, there is no finite end date to that statutory warranty.
A manufacturer cannot avoid his obligations by selling through a bunch of different dealers.
It has been a long time since I lived in the States but I would be surprised if there isn't someting similar there.
Here is Aus, this is determined at the Federal level as a base line and the individual States then have their own set on top of that.
I used to work at a major manufacturer of whitegoods some years ago and this was very much in the discussion. As the manufacturer, we actually had to hold parts (or as a minimum, molds and patterns for parts) for up to the maximum anticipated lifespan of our products. Looks like this is not the case with model engines, huh?
Or, like you correctly mention - the geographical distance and legal complexities may be used to protect those manufacturers
T.O.M. you are absolutely spot on in your post.
What I struggle with understanding though is how this has become this way?
I don't know US consumer protection law at all but I do know that in Australia, consumers are afforded a set statutory warranty on all industrial goods. This warranty is the responsibility of the manufacturer, not the dealer who sold the actual item.
Furthermore, if it can be shown the item was not "fit for purpose" when it was sold to the consumer, there is no finite end date to that statutory warranty.
A manufacturer cannot avoid his obligations by selling through a bunch of different dealers.
It has been a long time since I lived in the States but I would be surprised if there isn't someting similar there.
Here is Aus, this is determined at the Federal level as a base line and the individual States then have their own set on top of that.
I used to work at a major manufacturer of whitegoods some years ago and this was very much in the discussion. As the manufacturer, we actually had to hold parts (or as a minimum, molds and patterns for parts) for up to the maximum anticipated lifespan of our products. Looks like this is not the case with model engines, huh?
Or, like you correctly mention - the geographical distance and legal complexities may be used to protect those manufacturers
11-27-2010, 05:17 PM
#55
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RE: JC 60cc Engine
This really has nothing to do with the current discussion but goes along with the "cheap" mindset of our hobby. A customer was in two days ago wanting servos. I matched the internet price. But that didn't please him enough because I didn't take the sales tax off. He did buy online and saved $9.00. I'm not going to jail for $9. Nothing I can do. I hope he doesnt need help with thoes servos from me. Dennis
11-27-2010, 06:13 PM
#56
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RE: JC 60cc Engine
Dennis,
I've personally seen the same type of activity. It became so common that a good friend closed hisshop and moved on. The people in the area lost a valuable resource when that happened. Out of curiousity, just how much did that person save after shipping costs were added in?
And how much time did it take for the servos to get to them? The buyer also failed to account for the time and expense incurred driving to your store to price the goods, effectively wasting that time and vehicle expense by refusing to buy becuase of sales tax, which no shop operating legally can avoid.
The number of times I've witnessed club members discuss driving an extra 50 miles to save $2.00 on a gallon of glow fuel is amazing. Back to the regularly scheduled programming...
I've personally seen the same type of activity. It became so common that a good friend closed hisshop and moved on. The people in the area lost a valuable resource when that happened. Out of curiousity, just how much did that person save after shipping costs were added in?
And how much time did it take for the servos to get to them? The buyer also failed to account for the time and expense incurred driving to your store to price the goods, effectively wasting that time and vehicle expense by refusing to buy becuase of sales tax, which no shop operating legally can avoid.The number of times I've witnessed club members discuss driving an extra 50 miles to save $2.00 on a gallon of glow fuel is amazing. Back to the regularly scheduled programming...
11-27-2010, 06:40 PM
#57
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RE: JC 60cc Engine
ORIGINAL: DadsToysBG
He did buy online and saved $9.00. I'm not going to jail for $9. Nothing I can do. I hope he doesnt need help with thoes servos from me. Dennis
He did buy online and saved $9.00. I'm not going to jail for $9. Nothing I can do. I hope he doesnt need help with thoes servos from me. Dennis
Rest assured, when the servos cause him grief, he will be back in your shop asking advice
11-27-2010, 06:58 PM
#58
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RE: JC 60cc Engine
I didn't mean to take this thread in a different direction. If he does need help, I'll help. Can't help myself. I have to much fun with this hobby to not want to help people. It's just some times I need to vent. I keep to coffee hot and a place to eat lunch. Sitting in my store we're all the best and I challenge anyne to prove me wrong. Dennis
11-27-2010, 07:23 PM
#59
RE: JC 60cc Engine
Dennis,
You can't please them all. I had a little bit a different problem with my local hobby shop. I don't expect them to be cheap as the internet or match all prices, but if something is way over priced I will ask about it. If something is a little high I don't care and sometimes the prices are cheaper. I mentioned to a sales person the servo gears were overpriced, he called Horizon and said I was correct and remarked the price. I purchased that set and waited for my other set to come in. When the second set came in they were double the suggested price so I pointed it out, and it happened. I had this sales person,a different person> start reaming me for pointing out the price was high. I said, ok just bring it up on Horizons site or there own site and he can see. He just told me I'm not getting a discount and thats it. Ok so now I'm ticked! If he ran the place I would never go back again, but the other people that work there go out of they're way to help people and it is noticed. Thats why I purchased a brand new race car set from them for my son , and I avoid that guy like the plague!
Sorry for venting and going off topic but I'm sure the people that come in and know you won't forget your service.
Andy
You can't please them all. I had a little bit a different problem with my local hobby shop. I don't expect them to be cheap as the internet or match all prices, but if something is way over priced I will ask about it. If something is a little high I don't care and sometimes the prices are cheaper. I mentioned to a sales person the servo gears were overpriced, he called Horizon and said I was correct and remarked the price. I purchased that set and waited for my other set to come in. When the second set came in they were double the suggested price so I pointed it out, and it happened. I had this sales person,a different person> start reaming me for pointing out the price was high. I said, ok just bring it up on Horizons site or there own site and he can see. He just told me I'm not getting a discount and thats it. Ok so now I'm ticked! If he ran the place I would never go back again, but the other people that work there go out of they're way to help people and it is noticed. Thats why I purchased a brand new race car set from them for my son , and I avoid that guy like the plague!
Sorry for venting and going off topic but I'm sure the people that come in and know you won't forget your service.
Andy
11-27-2010, 09:37 PM
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RE: JC 60cc Engine
Well thats enough, back to gas engines. Since we've been talking about gas lets ask what 60 gas is the best. That ought to be fun. Next, what radio oh wait that needs to be moved to another forum. I know the best question. What is the best hobby. I found mine, how about you. Dennis
11-27-2010, 11:58 PM
#61
RE: JC 60cc Engine
The biggest killers of your local hobby shop is Great Planes/ Tower Hobbies.
They sell a lot of there products to customers cheaper than the Hobby shops can buy them.
Had a friend of mine buy some servos that sold for about $55.00. After his savers club and some other discount he got them for $35.00 each. About the same price hobby shops have to pay for them.
Milton
They sell a lot of there products to customers cheaper than the Hobby shops can buy them.
Had a friend of mine buy some servos that sold for about $55.00. After his savers club and some other discount he got them for $35.00 each. About the same price hobby shops have to pay for them.
Milton
11-28-2010, 12:11 AM
#62
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RE: JC 60cc Engine
Some of us became aware of that problem in the late 70's and early 80's and have been preaching it ever since.
That "family" of hobby organizations has been single handedly responsible for putting more hobby shops out of business than any other reason. Nobody listened and here we are today. Every company they've touched has either been "assimilated" or closed down to eliminate competition. They have their talons buried in two more model companies now. One is now gone, along with all it's employees, and another will likely end up that way. Those selling DLE products have only a limited amount of time left before they will find themselves forced away from that product line.
Think I'm crazy? Think back to OS, Futaba, Top Flite, Coverite, Midwest, and a plethora of other manufacturers. Where is the only source for them today? There is only one source and it's called Hobbico/Tower.
That "family" of hobby organizations has been single handedly responsible for putting more hobby shops out of business than any other reason. Nobody listened and here we are today. Every company they've touched has either been "assimilated" or closed down to eliminate competition. They have their talons buried in two more model companies now. One is now gone, along with all it's employees, and another will likely end up that way. Those selling DLE products have only a limited amount of time left before they will find themselves forced away from that product line.
Think I'm crazy? Think back to OS, Futaba, Top Flite, Coverite, Midwest, and a plethora of other manufacturers. Where is the only source for them today? There is only one source and it's called Hobbico/Tower.
11-30-2010, 09:04 PM
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RE: JC 60cc Engine
ORIGINAL: Tired Old Man
Think I'm crazy? Think back to OS, Futaba, Top Flite, Coverite, Midwest, and a plethora of other manufacturers. Where is the only source for them today? There is only one source and it's called Hobbico/Tower.
Think I'm crazy? Think back to OS, Futaba, Top Flite, Coverite, Midwest, and a plethora of other manufacturers. Where is the only source for them today? There is only one source and it's called Hobbico/Tower.
12-01-2010, 07:40 AM
#64
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RE: JC 60cc Engine
Since this thread has taken a turn away from gas engines I MIGHT As well continue. I read of people here say, "why order from the LHS when i can do it myself" Well why not!
If the LHS matches the price and can have it in the same lengh of time whats the problem. At least if you have a problem you have someone to go to. Now I understand some of you live to far away to do this but many don't. Think about it. Dennis
If the LHS matches the price and can have it in the same lengh of time whats the problem. At least if you have a problem you have someone to go to. Now I understand some of you live to far away to do this but many don't. Think about it. Dennis
12-14-2010, 04:02 AM
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RE: JC 60cc Engine
i am going to get one of these jc60 as i have a few of the 28 evo and they are very good.
is the 60 footprint the sameas the 51 or bigger.#
thanks
is the 60 footprint the sameas the 51 or bigger.#
thanks
12-14-2010, 02:45 PM
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RE: JC 60cc Engine
Hi Ollie,
The foot print is not the same as the 51.
If I get a chance tomorrow I will measure up and let you know.
In the mean time Antonio has been busy in Spain.[X(]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwSJO...layer_embedded
Paul
The foot print is not the same as the 51.
If I get a chance tomorrow I will measure up and let you know.
In the mean time Antonio has been busy in Spain.[X(]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwSJO...layer_embedded
Paul
12-15-2010, 09:58 AM
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RE: JC 60cc Engine
ORIGINAL: Octopus RC
What style of the prop is in your video ? Looked like a Vess copy ?
What style of the prop is in your video ? Looked like a Vess copy ?
Paul
12-15-2010, 09:49 PM
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RE: JC 60cc Engine
menz - low load prop - funny how they fade it so we cant see the size - if you want to promote an engine best thisng you can do is show the size prop it is suited to. i didnt see anyflying there that a JC51 wouldnt do on that plane.
12-15-2010, 10:07 PM
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RE: JC 60cc Engine
Hi Guys,
I have one. I will be strapping it to the test stand and run it tomorrow latest.
The engine looks quite nicely made, with everything in the box. It comes with a pitts muffler that is useless because the drop is much to low, it will never fit in any cowl.
Upon opening the engine (I only took the reed block of to inspect the crank) as this was JC's biggest problem in the past, I saw a very clear "DL" stamped on the con-rod.
I will run a Menz 24x8 on the engine that the factory claims will run 6700RPM. We will see. I will let you know.
regards
Andreas
I have one. I will be strapping it to the test stand and run it tomorrow latest.
The engine looks quite nicely made, with everything in the box. It comes with a pitts muffler that is useless because the drop is much to low, it will never fit in any cowl.
Upon opening the engine (I only took the reed block of to inspect the crank) as this was JC's biggest problem in the past, I saw a very clear "DL" stamped on the con-rod.
I will run a Menz 24x8 on the engine that the factory claims will run 6700RPM. We will see. I will let you know.
regards
Andreas