outacontrol41

My Feedback: (9)

Just bought a Saito FG 30 gas four stroke for my H9 1/4 scale J-3 Cub. The engine is version 2009. On page 18 of the owner's manual it states that you should mix a ratio of 20:1 for break in and continuous operation. It also says to mix a high-quality 91 octane unleaded gasoline and a reliable high-quality 100% synthetic oil for 2 cycle engines. They recommend Evolution Oil.
Problem is....I've never heard of that stuff and don't know where to get it. However, I was at Lowes today and picked up a bottle of pro-mix premium 2 cycle engine oil 'designed for use with 50:1, 40:1, 32:1, and 16:1 mix ratios. It advertises on the bottle that it's low smoke, fuel stabilizer and synthetic blend. You add 2.6 oz. Per gallon to cover any of these required ratios for your engine. This is very new to me. I'm used to mixing my own ratio according to the amount of oil per gallon. Could someone please shed some light on this for me and let me know if this is safe for my FG 30? Otherwise...what brand oil (100% synthetic) have you been using for your FG engine and where did you get it from? Thanks.

aussiesteve

2.6oz per (US) gallon is 50:1 (actually 49:1). i would be very wary of using that oil at that ration in that engine.

Evolution oil is Mobil 2T Full Synthetic. Redline Racing oil is a similarly close oil to use. Stihl Ultra HP is also a good choice for similar specifications.
For a rich ratio like 20:1 Penzoil is probably also an option.

Now I am going to sit back and watch this thread go from here as my prediction is it will turn into "Just another oil thread".

outacontrol41

My Feedback: (9)

Is ther another oil thread related to this particular engine? Link to it?
Thanks for your answer. I've never owned a four stroke gas engine before with strict recommendation of 20:1 100% synthetic oil. I will now have to hunt down the the brands you listed....

CustomPC

I don't think that is correct.

I believe the Evolution oil is re-labled Morgans CoolPower.

If you take a look at the picture on Horizon Hobbies web site the label on their oil states that it blends with Gasoline and Methanol and I don't think the Mobil is compatible with methanol. The colour is another hint as it's strikingly similar to CoolPower Blue.

I was talking to Brian Winch yesterday on this very subject. He has had a bunch of these in for repairs and says many of the 2-stroke racing oils for gasoline have too much build up in the crank case and cam area.

The coolpower is a PAG based oil (not ester) and doesn't have this problem apparently.

outacontrol41

My Feedback: (9)

http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...odID=EVOX1001Q
.
Found it....the price stings....

aussiesteve

The Evolution Oil I saw was the same one as supplied with the MVVS / Evolution Petrol (Gas) engines when new. It is definitley the oil I suggested and it isn't blue in color.

From Experience - anyone who follows Brian Winches advice and uses Coolpower in their Petrol Engines is rapidly accelerating the wear rates in the engine. The Lubricating properties of it are fine for a low temp glow or even a water cooled 2 stroke but it is NOT very good at lubricating a hotter air cooled 2 stroke as we mostly use in our planes.

The manufacturer of the engine specifies 20:1 and full synthetic for a reason and that reason is to do with the bearings in the engine (a bushing is a plain bearing).

Hint on oils for our toys.
If you can't readily find a specific brand as recommended by the many advisors, go to your local Motorcycle shop and ask which full synthetic 2 stroke they sell that complies with JASO FD and use that.

Now back to my popcorn and watching.

CustomPC

Steve, I agree with most things that you say. Don't shoot the messenger. Is this going to be another case of forum bullying the gas forums.

Perhaps Horizon changed the oil?

I know that MVVS suggest the Mobil 1 2T or any racing 2-stroke oil with an high viscocity.

However, at this time and in the case of the Saito's, the manual written by Horizon Hobby are definately refering to the re-badged cruel power as per the link 2 post above this one.

For the record, i take all of BW's advice with a grain of salt and often disagree with him. I happened to be at a club social day yesterday and had some discussions with him about this very subject (among others). I put my points across about coolpower and he put his points across. It was a civil discussion. I am just relaying what he says after he has done repairs on quite a few of them now.

I don't even run CP in my glow engines. I run ester based oils which are expensive and hard to source.

aussiesteve

No worries mate. I wasn't having a dig at ya.

The reason for the JASO FD rating is that the "D" is of a higher detergency than the fC - which equals less buildup.

I used to happily run 17% coolpower (and 3% Castor) in my glows back in the day when I ran Glow and mixed my own fuel up. Now I buy the Coolpower premix with the castor in it on the rare occassions that I use Glow fuel. (I only have 2 glow planes left that actually get flown).

By the sounds of it, I had the same discussion as you have with BW last year when I was "over that way". While I was involved in developing a product for our toys, I did quite a bit of side by side testing of oils on running engines and in the Lab (I had access to the TAFE and Curtin wear Labs until Earlier this year). From that testing, I found that there were a number of very suitable oils available for controlling wear and of those there was also a decent range of oils suitable for keeping the buildups down. ALL of the ones that covered all bases happened to be certified to JASO FD.

Actual Engine running tests showed that a few of those were very good, others were acceptable. I did the testing on what was readily available here in WA and unfortunately the two that are perhaps most popular in the USA weren't readily available here (Stihl Ultra HP and Penzzoil aircooled)

CustomPC

Which oils that are available locally do you think work best?
I have researched myself into a state of analysis paralysis.
MVVS say a thicker oil is best on our cantilever crank engines because that is what is needed for the bearings.
The 2-stroke racing oils on the MVVS list are all high viscosity with high flash point.

Looking at all the numbers it's so hard to judge. The stihl is unique in that it's viscocity is low-average but has a high flashpoint.

In our small engines, do we need a thin oil that flows easily or a thicker oil that may stick around longer?

I ruined one piston/ring/liner/ set last week on RedLine. So I went with Shell Racing X on the second engine of the same make and model. The result was much better. The 2nd engine has been a better runner and more consistent. I got half dozen flights in 30 deg C temps yesterday and it didn't miss a beat.

aussiesteve

aagh - a challenge
Ok, based on my testing in the lab and in the field. Using oils that are readily available here in Perth (and probably about the same list as the rest of Australia). Measuring Wear resistance and buildups. In a variety of engine brands that included 3W, MVVS, YD-A (the genuine ones), DLE and a few "cheapies". This was all aimed at Petrol (Gas) engines, I haven't tested the Methanol Engine requirements.

The list I found that worked well was:

Mobil1 2T fully Synthetic
Castrol TTS
Redline Racing oil

In all of the above cases, 40:1 was the magic number for wear resistance and overall lubricity without significant buildup or additional cost.

Some others that were good for Lubrication but not quite as good at controlling buildup were
Belray MC-1
Motul 800
Shell Synthetic
Royal Purple (which we could get here for a short while).

Oils I would never put through an RC Plane engine of mine
Amsoil anything (especially the "100:1 mixes")
Coolpower "Blue" (Glow oil)
Klotz Synthetic (because it seems to have some Castor in it after the buildup analysis).

I couldn't get hold of the Stihl Ultra HP, nor could I find the Penzoil product that is popular elsewhere.


The list was by no means exhaustive but it was to find locally available products that worked well.

aussiesteve

For the question on what we need for viscosity. It is a convoluted answer.

For the lower performance engines with plenty of bearing clearance etc, most oils will be as good as another. For the higher performance engines such as the MVVS, BME, 3W types. we need an oil that will flow readily through the close bearing clearances and will handle the higher temperatures found in such engines. MVVS recommend 40:1 of a "thicker" oil for this reason however remember that the viscosity at engine operating temp is what really matters.

Some oils will lose viscosity at elevated temperatures far more rapidly than others. All of the oils I quoted as "top of the list" above are of similar viscosity at the actual temperatures encountered in a running engine. The adhesive and cohesive (shear) properties of some are however better than others. and this is why some of those oils are on my "Never to be used" list.

If you have an enigne that has a tendency to run at the higher end of the operating temperature (if it is not well baffled for example), the higher the viscosity the better.

But what is equally as important than that is the amount of oil available to do its job. My testing has shown me that any leaner than 40:1 and we take great risks on the majority of our engines. I know this flys in the face of some professional engine users who use 50:1 for extended periods however those particualr engines are very well installed and tend to run at the lower end of their normal rev range where the the oils shear characteristics are able to cope.

Notice I have not mentioned much about the Cylinder wear? That is a whole additional set of rules to explain (but it was taken into account in my testing). The fuel component has a lot to do with that wear regime due to the cooling effect of the fuel vaporisation.

CustomPC

Thanks for the info.

Do you remember which shell product you tested? There is about 9 different 2-stroke oils.

aussiesteve

I trialled 2 Shell products.

Aeroshell Oil sport Plus 2
Shell Advance Ultra 2

Both had very similar results to each other.

TimBle

they are the same product, rebranded

Kweasel

My Feedback: (29)

All JASO spec oil use a low ash additive package that may foul a CM6 in this application. Plus their high level of polyisobutene increase bearing temps. At 5% a non-spec ester racing oil will be good for the bearing but may foul the plug. PAG will also work well as long as enough is used. Castor will stick to the exhaust valve.

TimBle

If you are using premium gasoline with a detergent additive package then plug fouling is very minimal.

aussiesteve

Yep
I use Premium Pump Gas always. Partly because I have a couple of high performance engines that benefit from the higher octane rating but mainly because here it is a better refined product with a better shelf life. I mix 10 lt of mix at a time and that mix goes into all of my 2 strokes - planes, garden equipment, Chainsaws etc.

I change my plugs every year whether they need it or not. We fly all year round here.

TimBle

.

tonyob

The Australian supplied Saito FG manual recommends Castrol TTS which is what I've been using. The manual you can download from Horizon Hobby is worth reading as it gives more detail as to the rationale behind Saito's advice on fully synthetic. If you don't have the Australian supplied manual (it's smaller and not translated as well as the horizon hobby one), send me an email and I'll scan it and send it to you.

triumphman49

My Feedback: (149)

Hi OUTOFCONTROL41, Had lots of trouble sourcing oil also. Went to couple of bike shops, but didn't recognize any of the brands there. Wound up pruchasing from ebay as had gotten number of gassers & wanted it rite. I use the Stihl Ultra HP synthetic. Bought a number of containers as it doesn't go bad or get old. Have a FG20, FG36, and a converted FA270T along with other 2 stroke engines 32:1 mostly, but the 4 strokes I do run 20:1. Only have one over 50cc, a MVVS 58.

Club Saito #723
Mike Brennan

Jezmo

First, I want to caution that Redline makes several different oils for gasoline fueled engines and they are not all the same. (However according to the Redline rep I talked to, the Two Stroke Racing and Kart Racing oils are the same, just different bottles.) I have tried a number of oils in my Saito 91 and 180 gas conversions. Most of the oils I tried carboned up the exhaust valve rather quickly causing it to stick. I would then have to take it out and clean it before I could get the engine running right again. The oil that is giving me the least carbon buildup is the Redline Two Stroke Racing oil which is fully synthetic. I am mixing it at 16:1 and using that mix in both four strokes as well as my converted SuperTigre 51 and 90. I can't use any less oil in the two strokers because they still have bushing rods however I ran the four strokers at 20:1 without issue. I don't like having to carry multiple fuel mixes to the field so I just run 16:1 in all of them. Works fine. I have NOT tried the Evolution oil but may do so after reading this thread just to see how it does. I have tried the Castrol TTS in my two strokes and it works very good and produces very little carbon. I can't speak for it's performance in the four strokers.

tonyob

I've been running the TTS mix at 18.5 to 1, a bit more oil than the recommended 20:1 while breaking it in and getting the first 10 runs or so on the motor. Then I plan to go back to 20:1. I'm doing this with an FG14 and an FG20.

CustomPC

I use the 95 RON (about 89-91 PON) Premium gas here because it doesn't have any ethanol.
Our standard ULP is 91 RON (87 PON?) and has 10% ethanol. I used it in my Ryobi line trimmer once and it has been a pig ever since. I refuse to use it in my car because the fuel economy suffers and i end up burning the same ammount of gasoline anyways.

We can also get 98 RON Ultra premium but i thing that is too much for our small gassers.

aussiesteve

Yep - same here. I use the "premium" unleaded in my car also (I only have one petrol car now - all the others are diesel). I find the fuel economy is about the same but the response from the right pedal is significantly different. On the straight ULP, there is a lag and a transmission kickdown when I go to accelerate, with the 91, it just accelerates.

Notice how the "cheap fuels" have got real bad and normal fuels have got expensive ever since the Rae family sold their interests in Gull to the ex BP managers. I laugh when some countries complain about the cost of fuel - we are paying around $1.45 per litre mid week here now ($5.65 / US Gallon) for the basic ULP (about $1.52 for Premium) and it goes up around the weekend. Imagine what will happen when our dollar drops back down against the US.

outacontrol41

My Feedback: (9)

Thanks Mike, and thanks to everyone else who is contributing to this 'oil thread'. I have definately learned something here that I couldn't find out in the other forums so it was definately worthwhile asking here. Thanks again.