DLE - 55 Clockwise Rotating Engine
01-04-2012, 09:33 AM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (22)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Prosper,
TX
Posts: 122
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DLE - 55 Clockwise Rotating Engine
Gents,
I am building a large twin and have tought about using counter rotating engines. I will use DLE-55's. Does anyone know of someone that either makes the prop hub for the timing change required to make one of the DLE's a clockwise rotating engine? Or do you know anyone that will make the change?
Secondly, is there a manufacture that makes a 22 X 8 three blade prop for a clockwise rotating engine?
Thanks,
Greg
I am building a large twin and have tought about using counter rotating engines. I will use DLE-55's. Does anyone know of someone that either makes the prop hub for the timing change required to make one of the DLE's a clockwise rotating engine? Or do you know anyone that will make the change?
Secondly, is there a manufacture that makes a 22 X 8 three blade prop for a clockwise rotating engine?
Thanks,
Greg
01-04-2012, 10:02 AM
#2
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Coffs Harbour NSW, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 2,306
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
RE: DLE - 55 Clockwise Rotating Engine
Hi Greg,
Reversing the engine is a relatively straightforward task.
Simply mode the Hall sensor to to the other side of TDC, an equal distance as the distance you currently have, taking into account the width of the sensor itself
(The ignition triggers when the magnet passes the trailing edge of the sensor)
You can get cheap calipers to verify the timing in degrees before you drill the front housing and permanently mount the sensor in the new location.
Menz (from memory) have a good range of pusher props.
I am doing pretty much the same thing with a pair of G62-Lite from Ralph Cunningham. I'm mounting those into a 27% Cessna 421 and am planning counter rotating props as well
Reversing the engine is a relatively straightforward task.
Simply mode the Hall sensor to to the other side of TDC, an equal distance as the distance you currently have, taking into account the width of the sensor itself
(The ignition triggers when the magnet passes the trailing edge of the sensor)
You can get cheap calipers to verify the timing in degrees before you drill the front housing and permanently mount the sensor in the new location.
Menz (from memory) have a good range of pusher props.
I am doing pretty much the same thing with a pair of G62-Lite from Ralph Cunningham. I'm mounting those into a 27% Cessna 421 and am planning counter rotating props as well
01-04-2012, 11:25 AM
#3
RE: DLE - 55 Clockwise Rotating Engine
Careful with this one guys. The "backwards" turning prop will loosen its prop nut and/or hub. The power pulses act like a jackhammer and will loosen and throw the prop. Been there, done that... Reversed engines should have left hand prop nut and hub threads.
AV8TOR
AV8TOR
01-04-2012, 01:59 PM
#4
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Coffs Harbour NSW, AUSTRALIA
Posts: 2,306
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
RE: DLE - 55 Clockwise Rotating Engine
ORIGINAL: av8tor1977
Reversed engines should have left hand prop nut and hub threads.
AV8TOR
Reversed engines should have left hand prop nut and hub threads.
AV8TOR
If they do, the risk of it is minimal, especially engines with a 4-bolt or a 6-bolt hub pattern
01-05-2012, 03:38 PM
#5
Senior Member
RE: DLE - 55 Clockwise Rotating Engine
I agree. With the hub and shaft being keyed the DLE is unlikely to loosen the hub nut/centering shaft. Just my two cents.
03-22-2013, 10:20 AM
#7
My Feedback: (19)
RE: DLE - 55 Clockwise Rotating Engine
03-22-2013, 03:02 PM
#10
RE: DLE - 55 Clockwise Rotating Engine
ORIGINAL: w8ye
If you are going to turn the cylinder 180 degrees, you have to tuen the piston 180 degrees also so the boost port cut outs in the piston will align with the boost port in the cylinder.
If you are going to turn the cylinder 180 degrees, you have to tuen the piston 180 degrees also so the boost port cut outs in the piston will align with the boost port in the cylinder.
AV8TOR
03-22-2013, 05:48 PM
#12
RE: DLE - 55 Clockwise Rotating Engine
ORIGINAL: av8tor1977
And so that the piston ring ends don't end up crossing a port, where they might get caught. If that happens, the engine makes a nice, albeit expensive paperweight.
AV8TOR
ORIGINAL: w8ye
If you are going to turn the cylinder 180 degrees, you have to tuen the piston 180 degrees also so the boost port cut outs in the piston will align with the boost port in the cylinder.
If you are going to turn the cylinder 180 degrees, you have to tuen the piston 180 degrees also so the boost port cut outs in the piston will align with the boost port in the cylinder.
AV8TOR
03-22-2013, 05:51 PM
#13
My Feedback: (19)
RE: DLE - 55 Clockwise Rotating Engine
ORIGINAL: airraptor
I think he meant to rotate it so the exhaust is in the same spot as the other engine if mounted horizontal.
I think he meant to rotate it so the exhaust is in the same spot as the other engine if mounted horizontal.
03-22-2013, 10:32 PM
#15
Senior Member
RE: DLE - 55 Clockwise Rotating Engine
BC
03-23-2013, 01:59 AM
#16
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: HoogeveenDrenthe, NETHERLANDS
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: DLE - 55 Clockwise Rotating Engine
If you do not rotate the cylinder and piston you will have higher compression on the reversed engine and you wil have to richen this engine a lot and it will never run the same as the normal running engine. I have done it with my dle55 and have put in a lot of time to figuring out. Also keep in mind that adjusting the ignition timing will make a lot of difference in rpm. If you don't adjust the timing exaclty right on the reversed engine this engine will lose easy 400rpm. If you dont believe me than try rotating a normal engine clockwise. You will notice a compression difference when rotating it by hand in the opposite direction.
03-23-2013, 02:01 AM
#17
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: HoogeveenDrenthe, NETHERLANDS
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: DLE - 55 Clockwise Rotating Engine
ORIGINAL: airraptor
I think he meant to rotate it so the exhaust is in the same spot as the other engine if mounted horizontal.
I think he meant to rotate it so the exhaust is in the same spot as the other engine if mounted horizontal.
03-23-2013, 02:03 AM
#18
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: HoogeveenDrenthe, NETHERLANDS
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: DLE - 55 Clockwise Rotating Engine
ORIGINAL: bcchi
Can't be done.
BC
BC
03-23-2013, 02:08 AM
#19
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: HoogeveenDrenthe, NETHERLANDS
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: DLE - 55 Clockwise Rotating Engine
This is my ziroli p38 with the two dle55 engines. (one reversed) This is my second flight and despite the twinsync you can hear rpm difference when moving the throttle. This rpm difference was due to the timing setting on the reversed engine. I have now adjusted the timing and i am waiting for the weather to clear and make an other flight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTKR4O4OA_A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTKR4O4OA_A
03-23-2013, 06:26 AM
#20
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Vancouver ,
WA
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: DLE - 55 Clockwise Rotating Engine
You could just use the time some of you are spending on this problem to practice using a rudder. Very few rc flyers are proficient with it, but proper rudder usage is extremely critical with a twin. It's also the main difference between a great rc flyer and an average one. If you can't handle two engines turning in one direction and maintain coordinated flight you probably aren't ready for a twin. No offense intended. If you lose an engine and can't fly it straight on two engines, you will crash on one engine guaranteed. Hopefully it won't be into spectators or anything expensive. Most real twins out there use two engines turning in the same direction without issue. One of the major brands of simulators has a random engine failure feature on twins. I think it was Phoenix sims. I was at a hobby store borrowing their sim doing some single engine training with a buddy to prep him to take the sticks on my nitro B-25. We are both professional pilots with experience in light twins all the way up to heavy transport aircraft. We also have flown rc since we were out of diapers and can do just about anything the pros do with an rc plane. We still take flying an rc twin seriously and practice single engine flying to maintain proficiency. A good place to start for rudder proficiency is to practice taking off holding right rudder through an extended dead straight climb out. Most rc flyers can't accomplish this simple task and it's harder than it looks. Then start making basic coordinated turns in both directions until you can turn without slipping or skidding in perfectly coordinated flight. Once you master that, practice slips to a landing both left and right until it is second nature. This could take hundreds of flights to master, but the reward is worth the effort. If you don't understand the terms I am using, find someone who does. They probably know what they are doing and can help you. If you want to fly twins, you owe it to yourselves to learn these skills. Another tip is to develop your own method for handling engine failure and review it before each flight. Mine is to call out which engine failed verbally (left or right), take a breath, lower the nose 10 degrees and apply 1/2 deflection of the rudder stick, and 1/4 deflection of the aileron stick, in the opposite direction that I called out. From there I adjust as necessary to keep it flying. I do not recomment trimming, because on final approach when you reduce power the airplane should fly straight again. You might be surprised that these twins can fly just fine on one engine if you learn how to fly them that way. For those of you building scale twins that actually have counter rotating props, continue.
03-23-2013, 06:45 AM
#21
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Vancouver ,
WA
Posts: 49
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: DLE - 55 Clockwise Rotating Engine
P.s. Another great option for engine failure that is better suited to those who are not proficient with single engine flight is to cut the good engine and turn your twin into a glider. For most this is the safest option, but you are limited in landing area.
03-23-2013, 07:41 AM
#22
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: HoogeveenDrenthe, NETHERLANDS
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: DLE - 55 Clockwise Rotating Engine
ORIGINAL: skywagn180
You could just use the time some of you are spending on this problem to practice using a rudder. Very few rc flyers are proficient with it, but proper rudder usage is extremely critical with a twin. It's also the main difference between a great rc flyer and an average one. If you can't handle two engines turning in one direction and maintain coordinated flight you probably aren't ready for a twin. No offense intended. If you lose an engine and can't fly it straight on two engines, you will crash on one engine guaranteed. Hopefully it won't be into spectators or anything expensive. Most real twins out there use two engines turning in the same direction without issue. One of the major brands of simulators has a random engine failure feature on twins. I think it was Phoenix sims. I was at a hobby store borrowing their sim doing some single engine training with a buddy to prep him to take the sticks on my nitro B-25. We are both professional pilots with experience in light twins all the way up to heavy transport aircraft. We also have flown rc since we were out of diapers and can do just about anything the pros do with an rc plane. We still take flying an rc twin seriously and practice single engine flying to maintain proficiency. A good place to start for rudder proficiency is to practice taking off holding right rudder through an extended dead straight climb out. Most rc flyers can't accomplish this simple task and it's harder than it looks. Then start making basic coordinated turns in both directions until you can turn without slipping or skidding in perfectly coordinated flight. Once you master that, practice slips to a landing both left and right until it is second nature. This could take hundreds of flights to master, but the reward is worth the effort. If you don't understand the terms I am using, find someone who does. They probably know what they are doing and can help you. If you want to fly twins, you owe it to yourselves to learn these skills. Another tip is to develop your own method for handling engine failure and review it before each flight. Mine is to call out which engine failed verbally (left or right), take a breath, lower the nose 10 degrees and apply 1/2 deflection of the rudder stick, and 1/4 deflection of the aileron stick, in the opposite direction that I called out. From there I adjust as necessary to keep it flying. I do not recomment trimming, because on final approach when you reduce power the airplane should fly straight again. You might be surprised that these twins can fly just fine on one engine if you learn how to fly them that way. For those of you building scale twins that actually have counter rotating props, continue.
You could just use the time some of you are spending on this problem to practice using a rudder. Very few rc flyers are proficient with it, but proper rudder usage is extremely critical with a twin. It's also the main difference between a great rc flyer and an average one. If you can't handle two engines turning in one direction and maintain coordinated flight you probably aren't ready for a twin. No offense intended. If you lose an engine and can't fly it straight on two engines, you will crash on one engine guaranteed. Hopefully it won't be into spectators or anything expensive. Most real twins out there use two engines turning in the same direction without issue. One of the major brands of simulators has a random engine failure feature on twins. I think it was Phoenix sims. I was at a hobby store borrowing their sim doing some single engine training with a buddy to prep him to take the sticks on my nitro B-25. We are both professional pilots with experience in light twins all the way up to heavy transport aircraft. We also have flown rc since we were out of diapers and can do just about anything the pros do with an rc plane. We still take flying an rc twin seriously and practice single engine flying to maintain proficiency. A good place to start for rudder proficiency is to practice taking off holding right rudder through an extended dead straight climb out. Most rc flyers can't accomplish this simple task and it's harder than it looks. Then start making basic coordinated turns in both directions until you can turn without slipping or skidding in perfectly coordinated flight. Once you master that, practice slips to a landing both left and right until it is second nature. This could take hundreds of flights to master, but the reward is worth the effort. If you don't understand the terms I am using, find someone who does. They probably know what they are doing and can help you. If you want to fly twins, you owe it to yourselves to learn these skills. Another tip is to develop your own method for handling engine failure and review it before each flight. Mine is to call out which engine failed verbally (left or right), take a breath, lower the nose 10 degrees and apply 1/2 deflection of the rudder stick, and 1/4 deflection of the aileron stick, in the opposite direction that I called out. From there I adjust as necessary to keep it flying. I do not recomment trimming, because on final approach when you reduce power the airplane should fly straight again. You might be surprised that these twins can fly just fine on one engine if you learn how to fly them that way. For those of you building scale twins that actually have counter rotating props, continue.
And yes when flyin a twin you should practice fying it on one engine. Just in case...
03-23-2013, 01:17 PM
#23
RE: DLE - 55 Clockwise Rotating Engine
Very few real life full size twin engine planes or multi-engine planes used contra-rotating props and or engines. It caused a parts support nightmare for the maintenance people. Many of the ones that did quit doing it too.
But for twin engine RC planes, I simply mount both normal rotating engines like normal. usually both engines are side mounted with the engine cylinder both facing to the right. it has not been a problem. The planes fly just fine like that. Keeping it simple simplifies the entire process. With gas engines most guys mount them inverted, and it isn't a problem for them either. With my smaller glow engine powered twin engine planes, I treat a engine flame out like a dead stick scenario and I cut the throttle and land the plane right away. So I haven't crashed a twin in quite a while due to a engine flame out. I also adjust each engine to run good. I don't try to synchronize the engines. The plane flies fine even is one engine is off quite a bit from the other. The engines don't have to match up with each other. I know guys flying twins and four and five engines planes using different engines and the planes still flew just fine like that.
Now as the plane gets larger and larger, the rudder become more and more important. You need to make coordinated rudder and aileron movements to make the turns. Using ailerons by themselves will likely not work on the big RC planes as they now fly more like the real planes do. So you need to get good doing coordinated rudder aileron turns. usually the larger planes have a fairly large amount of dihedral in the wings and that reduces the effectiveness of the ailerons, but it increases the effectiveness of the rudder though.
Anyway, to reverse a gas engine, one needs to relocate the timing sensor to the other side so it is opposite of where it currently is located. You can use a degree wheel disc to match it back up. You don't have to reverse the cylinder unless you want to, but if you do, then you need to reverse the piston too.
But for twin engine RC planes, I simply mount both normal rotating engines like normal. usually both engines are side mounted with the engine cylinder both facing to the right. it has not been a problem. The planes fly just fine like that. Keeping it simple simplifies the entire process. With gas engines most guys mount them inverted, and it isn't a problem for them either. With my smaller glow engine powered twin engine planes, I treat a engine flame out like a dead stick scenario and I cut the throttle and land the plane right away. So I haven't crashed a twin in quite a while due to a engine flame out. I also adjust each engine to run good. I don't try to synchronize the engines. The plane flies fine even is one engine is off quite a bit from the other. The engines don't have to match up with each other. I know guys flying twins and four and five engines planes using different engines and the planes still flew just fine like that.
Now as the plane gets larger and larger, the rudder become more and more important. You need to make coordinated rudder and aileron movements to make the turns. Using ailerons by themselves will likely not work on the big RC planes as they now fly more like the real planes do. So you need to get good doing coordinated rudder aileron turns. usually the larger planes have a fairly large amount of dihedral in the wings and that reduces the effectiveness of the ailerons, but it increases the effectiveness of the rudder though.
Anyway, to reverse a gas engine, one needs to relocate the timing sensor to the other side so it is opposite of where it currently is located. You can use a degree wheel disc to match it back up. You don't have to reverse the cylinder unless you want to, but if you do, then you need to reverse the piston too.
03-23-2013, 03:54 PM
#24
Senior Member
RE: DLE - 55 Clockwise Rotating Engine
When reversing rotation is the idea to turn the cyl and piston so the sequence of the fuel vapour through the ports is the same as it would have been if the engine was running in it's normal rotation?
03-23-2013, 04:19 PM
#25
My Feedback: (66)
RE: DLE - 55 Clockwise Rotating Engine
ORIGINAL: 3136
When reversing rotation is the idea to turn the cyl and piston so the sequence of the fuel vapour through the ports is the same as it would have been if the engine was running in it's normal rotation?
When reversing rotation is the idea to turn the cyl and piston so the sequence of the fuel vapour through the ports is the same as it would have been if the engine was running in it's normal rotation?
its the same either way. piston goes up and it goes down. thats all