Stick 40

I have seen a few posts about problems starting a gas engine, and hand flipping to start.

is there a issue with using a elect. starter , like we do with glow ?

also I have seen advice about no metal to metal from engine to thr. servo? I thought that was dead with the 2.4 radio sys.

sticks

Truckracer

My Feedback: (19)

I use metal or carbon fiber throttle pushrods but always use bolt on ball links on the throttle arm at the carburetor. Usually at the servo end also.

Starters are probably OK on the smaller engines (30cc and below) but recommend getting help from someone experienced in using them on larger engines. Opinions vary widely about this but that is my current thought on the matter. Frankly, most gas engines start easy enough w/o a starter so most users find them unnecessary and part of the appeal of going gas. Whatever you do, be sure the plane is well restrained.

castlebravo

It is a misnomer that 2.4ghz systems are immune from interference. Ignition noise can certainly interfere with your system. It may not affect the signal to the receiver from your transmitter......but it will propagate in your servo wires. I have seen it on several occasions....mostly due to loose plug caps. I've seen it interfere with everything from Throttle servos to elevator and aileron servos....especially if the extensions are long. On all of my gas engines...I put a small hose clamp over the plug caps....this secures them very tightly.

As far as a starter goes....if you have one big enough to turn the engine over...no problem using one. I usually have no problems starting my bigger gassers by hand....it's only the smaller ones that I've ever needed the starter on.

CB

Stick 40

just wondered about these two issues.

I bought my first gas plane last spring and the guy helping me said nothing about the elect starter I used . he seemed to know what he was doing.

I am a little more comfortable with the elect starter, but may get used to hand starting gas in time.

I guess metal 'z" bend rattling around in metal arms , is not a great thing.

thanks for the input.

sticks

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

You will be unlikely to be able to start a magneto ignition engine by hand.

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

A rattling metal z-bend isn't a good idea but it wont cause interference with 2.4

We start 120's with a geared starter so like someone said, if it will crank the engine, no reason not to use it.

Hand starting requires proper propeller indexing and good technique or you can get whacked if you're not careful.

dirtybird

My Feedback: (5)

I value my fingers so I use a starter.
Engines bigger than 120 require a starter that is too big to carry so those people tend to hand start

Stick 40

thank you very much!

when I first got into rc, I had a engine that did not want to run. I got my two fingers cut trying to start it.

I went out and bought a starter, and have never looked back.

I have a 24v for bigger engines so that I don't have to go thru that again.

safety first.

if I have to flip them, I will. I like the hobby!

sticks

MTK

The OS engines especially benefit from a starter during the early stages when the learning curve is vertical. The reason is the starting algorithm OS designed into their CDI units. After a bit of running and after break in, even this engine starts easily by hand. Other engines tend to use Rcexl CDIs making them simple to hand start from the beginning. I have a large silicone tube I use as the chicken stick. I've never had a gas engine backfire but since I often use APC props with razor sharp trailing edges, fingers get cut just barely pressing the them.

as far as RFI noise, I use a tech aero ibec between the Rx and the CDI. It filters the RFI if any. It also eliminates the need for a second battery and switch.

tazzzz

I have absolutely no problem at all hand starting my Zenoah ( 26and 38) . both have mag ignitions, once tuned they stay tuned. I try not to have battery units if at all possible. Been running these engines flawlessly for 5 years. Love the heck out of them! TAZZZZ

Rocketman612

My Feedback: (85)

Spring starters on my G62's makes hand starting them a breeze. I do use a Sullivan Dynatron starter with the Miller gear reduction to start my DLE 55's and DA50. I have a medical condition that fatigues my hands and hand starting those engines leaves me in tough shape to fly.

2.4 as stated will not prevent interference. You still must do a good installation of radio gear. the interference can be masked better with 2.4 giving you a false sense of security. Take the extra time and do it right. I have the Tech Aero IBEC in one plane and it's great. It has multiple filters (4) I believe to filter RF noise. I highly recommend it

Pete

bcchi

You are 100% right about 2.4 and RFI problems.We never had so many RFI complaints as when every one switched to 2.4.This about the same time the Chinese started using the all metal caps on the spark plugs.Fliers were not getting the cap all the way on the spark plug.I can build a Ignition that will eat up a 2.4 system.In fact I did this and it got to three brands of 2.4.Like you I believe the noise is getting into the servo chain. And now they are plugging the Ignition into the receiver to supply ign voltage. Nor Me.
BCCHI Tired old CH guy.

dirtybird

My Feedback: (5)

There is no frequency that is immune to interference.2.4 spread systems are harder to interfere with because they spread their information over the entire band. Unfortunately a good spark will wipe out the entire band if it is not contained.
The external ignition system depends on the shield connection for ground and if it does not have a good connection an uncontained spark will occur. This will wipe out the band.This is avoided with the mag systems as the mag is grounded to the engine. All you need is a resistor plug without a shield
However, with 2.4 you will not get coupling by ignoring the old 12" rule. And you can use one battery for both ignition and receiver power without fear.

Stick 40

What is "Mag ignitions" is that different than CDI's. being grounded to the engine sounds good.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Zenoah G38 with the standard magneto ignition that requires no battery to run

Stick 40

would there be less interference with this?

is this a good way to go?

who sells a good system?

Here I go again, new learning curve! Lol

dirtybird

My Feedback: (5)

I remember the G-38. I would go to an IMMA meet where we all brought our airplanes we had built. The G38 was king. You would flip it a few times with the mag grounded and the choke on, then take the choke and mag ground off and one flip would have it going. Those were the days.
Now you buy a Chinese toy, go do the same thing over and over, and make the aircraft look like someone threw a cat up in the air.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

20 yrs ago the G38 was very popular

BarracudaHockey

My Feedback: (11)

Everyone dumps them in favor of electronic ignition and EI conversion kits. I don't think I've ever seen anyone ask for a kit to go back to magneto

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

I flew the magneto engines for years and didn't have interference problems even on FM.

Magneto ignition type engines are often hard to hand start.

Zenoah had a optional spring starter that flipped the prop faster.

Bennet Built (B&B) also sold add-on spring starters

castlebravo

Hi Stick 40,
The interference I was referring to above would be generated by the plug cap....so regardless of whether you have an electronic ignition or a magneto.....if the cap is loose.....you'll get interference...no matter what radio you use.
In the days of 72mhz and gas engines....you didn't want any metal to metal contact because gas engines vibrate more than glow engines. Metal to metal contact generates RF which would interfere with 72mhz systems. This is why a simple "Z" bend for the throttles in Helicopters was also a no no.....all of the built up vibration would cause the "z" bend to vibrate against the metal throttle arm and generate RF in close quarters to the radio...causing at least interference...at most...a PCM lockout (I know this for a fact...).
Newer 2.4ghz systems are more immune to this small amount of RF noise however it is still best practice to use a non-metal to metal pushrod to your gas engine throttle. Most of us use a ball link which is secure and vibration free.
Most of the folks responding to this thread are "The Pro's from Dover" (M*A*S*H* quote) so they know what they're talking about. Most modern gas engines available today are reliable and easy starting (if bought from a reliable source). Only the very small gas engines require anything other than hand starting. Bigger airplanes require a little more attention to detail when installing components however they will fly better and last longer than the slime engulfed glow airframes...in my humble opinion.



CB

castlebravo

And bye the way.....one of my first experiences with a loose plug cap interfering with the servo wires was with a DA-50 in a Lanier Edge.....first start was in a start stand.....the plug RF caused the throttle servo to go to full and pulled the stand right over crushing my plane...had I been standing directly in front of it....it would have been bad...

Moral of the story:
1) Even the mighty DA can have this issue so it's not isolated to those Chinese "toys" (somebody elses words...not mine)
2) Don't ever use one of those "AMA Start Stands" to start anything larger than a 30cc airplane. A 50cc will pull them right over.
3) When starting large gassers.....always have someone else there. I have two good friends who are missing multiple fingers on their left hands.....not because of starting issues.....but because their attention was diverted for a split second and they paid the price....and these guys are two of the most anal retentive folks I know....one a former anesthesiologist and the other a former commander of a famous "Blue" aerobatic team......so it can happen to anybody.


CB

Stick 40

"The Pro's from Dover" (M*A*S*H* quote) I like that, Mash is a good show.

Yes don't think I want to do this without this help, I could go thru all this make my mistakes spend some money. But this is better and I am glad to get the help.

guess I will forget the "Mag", won't go down that path.

RFI, radio freq. interference. its been around, we had to put on special spark plug wires so the am radio would play right. Girls like it better when you had a radio in the car.

I will look into the RF filters, I am a week or two away from flying this P51, with the mintor 22 on it.

John_M_

That has nothing to do with it being a magneto ignition system, it's more of a fuel transfer / prime related issue... back in the early days using converted McCulloch chain saw engines, they were always hand started... spark wasn't the problem, proper priming of the carb and getting fuel vapor into the cylinder was the primary cause of hard starting.


John M,

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

I'll bring my Homelite 30 mag job over and watch you start it?