Gas Engine Head Temps ANY VALUE?
03-13-2005 | 05:53 PM
#1
Gas Engine Head Temps ANY VALUE?
These laser temp guns have been around awhile and I wanted to know just how useful they really are. Still have not seen any data on "optimal" temps and nothing more than keep temp 300 to 400 deg F in some threads.
Any and all info welcomed.
Pete
Any and all info welcomed.
Pete
03-13-2005 | 10:22 PM
#2
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From: , NC
RE: Gas Engine Head Temps ANY VALUE?
Cylinder head temperaturs on an air cooled engien are a guessing game, usually. It's almost impossible to get an accurate reading after landing because the engine has cooled down, and the same holds true for bench-run engines, because the cooling airflow is not the same as that inside the cowl of a plane. A lot of people are quoting optimal temperatures in the 185-200 degree range, measured at the top of the cylinder near the spark plug, which is the hottest part of the engine, but this is after landing usually.
Best bet is to just duct the cowl properly, provide a good large exit for the airflow, and keep an eye on your fuel mixture. More engines are damaged by running too lean than by getting too hot in a properly ducted cowl. You can do comparative readings on the engine to see how the cooling process is coming along, but in reality it's very difficult to say that "X" temperature is best.
Kris Welter
Best bet is to just duct the cowl properly, provide a good large exit for the airflow, and keep an eye on your fuel mixture. More engines are damaged by running too lean than by getting too hot in a properly ducted cowl. You can do comparative readings on the engine to see how the cooling process is coming along, but in reality it's very difficult to say that "X" temperature is best.
Kris Welter
03-14-2005 | 12:58 AM
#4
RE: Gas Engine Head Temps ANY VALUE?
Buy a 25 dollar rinky dink meter - these are plenty good enough for our use .
Find a spot to check -that is easy to get at after flying.
I like to use the intersection of barrel and case fins on any engine .
adjust your engine to run correctly (not using the meter ) for your flying style -for some guys this will be richer on mix than for others -this is NO magic setting
If you plug is reading correctly and the engine is not carboning or scoring and feels nice and slippery when bouncing the prop - you are likely in the right ballpark.
Always,check the heat the same way -within a minute of same time etc., after a flight .
I would bet that you get a reading in the spot I mentioned around 200 degrees .
If you reading changes say 20 degrees for some reason - find out why and adjust it
Also - the meter will show big differences in temps on a twin - this can be a tip off to bad airflow. or a lean run
All the meter is doing is helping you check and compare .
But once you learn to use it - and you must learn to use - it will help you keep your engine running correctly.
There is no easy answer to which/where measurement setup is best .
These do help -but you have to learn a technique which is easily repeatable .
If this were an EGT setup in a Lycoming- then yes you could simply ask "what is the correct operating temp for a given situation.
But these ain't Lycomings- and your setup is different from mine or likely your friend's setup.
Find a spot to check -that is easy to get at after flying.
I like to use the intersection of barrel and case fins on any engine .
adjust your engine to run correctly (not using the meter ) for your flying style -for some guys this will be richer on mix than for others -this is NO magic setting
If you plug is reading correctly and the engine is not carboning or scoring and feels nice and slippery when bouncing the prop - you are likely in the right ballpark.
Always,check the heat the same way -within a minute of same time etc., after a flight .
I would bet that you get a reading in the spot I mentioned around 200 degrees .
If you reading changes say 20 degrees for some reason - find out why and adjust it
Also - the meter will show big differences in temps on a twin - this can be a tip off to bad airflow. or a lean run
All the meter is doing is helping you check and compare .
But once you learn to use it - and you must learn to use - it will help you keep your engine running correctly.
There is no easy answer to which/where measurement setup is best .
These do help -but you have to learn a technique which is easily repeatable .
If this were an EGT setup in a Lycoming- then yes you could simply ask "what is the correct operating temp for a given situation.
But these ain't Lycomings- and your setup is different from mine or likely your friend's setup.
03-14-2005 | 01:00 AM
#5
RE: Gas Engine Head Temps ANY VALUE?
Buy a 25 dollar rinky dink meter - these are plenty good enough for our use .
Find a spot to check -that is easy to get at after flying.
I like to use the intersection of barrel and case fins on any engine .
adjust your engine to run correctly (not using the meter ) for your flying style -for some guys this will be richer on mix than for others -this is NO magic setting
If you plug is reading correctly and th engine is not carboning otr scoring and feel nice and slippery when bouncing th prop - you are likely in the right ballpark.
check the heat the same way -within a minute of same time etc., after a flight .
I would bet that you get a reading in the spot I mentioned around 200 degrees .
If you reading changes say 20 degrees for some reason - find out why and adjust it
Also - th meter will show big differences in temps on a twin - this can be a tip off to bad airflow.
All the meter is doing is helping you check and compare .
But once you learn to use it - and you must learn to use - it will help you keep your engine running correctly.
There is no easy answer to which measurement setup is best .
These do help -but you have to learn a technique which is easily repeatable .
If this were an EGT setup in a Lycoming- then yes you could simply ask "what is the correct operating temp for a given situation.
But these ain't Lycomings- and your setup is different from mine or likely your friend's setup.
Find a spot to check -that is easy to get at after flying.
I like to use the intersection of barrel and case fins on any engine .
adjust your engine to run correctly (not using the meter ) for your flying style -for some guys this will be richer on mix than for others -this is NO magic setting
If you plug is reading correctly and th engine is not carboning otr scoring and feel nice and slippery when bouncing th prop - you are likely in the right ballpark.
check the heat the same way -within a minute of same time etc., after a flight .
I would bet that you get a reading in the spot I mentioned around 200 degrees .
If you reading changes say 20 degrees for some reason - find out why and adjust it
Also - th meter will show big differences in temps on a twin - this can be a tip off to bad airflow.
All the meter is doing is helping you check and compare .
But once you learn to use it - and you must learn to use - it will help you keep your engine running correctly.
There is no easy answer to which measurement setup is best .
These do help -but you have to learn a technique which is easily repeatable .
If this were an EGT setup in a Lycoming- then yes you could simply ask "what is the correct operating temp for a given situation.
But these ain't Lycomings- and your setup is different from mine or likely your friend's setup.
03-14-2005 | 06:18 AM
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From: , NC
RE: Gas Engine Head Temps ANY VALUE?
If you want a Datalink system for monitoring your head tempertures i flight, check out this unit : http://www.eagletreesystems.com/Seagull/seagull.html
you can have two thermocouples on the engine, as well as monitor a ton of other information. Great for a real-time analysis.
Kris Welter
you can have two thermocouples on the engine, as well as monitor a ton of other information. Great for a real-time analysis.
Kris Welter
03-14-2005 | 08:59 AM
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From: San Tan Valley,
AZ
RE: Gas Engine Head Temps ANY VALUE?
I just took delivery on an Eagle Tree system. What temperature should I see during flight?
I also plan to monitor RPM, speed and alititude during flight. It should be interesting.
I also plan to monitor RPM, speed and alititude during flight. It should be interesting.
03-14-2005 | 06:17 PM
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From: Hammond,
IN
RE: Gas Engine Head Temps ANY VALUE?
Dirtybird:
The temperature you measure depends on location of the thermocouple. If it were me, I'd connect the TC to the spark plug washer.
The temperature you measure depends on location of the thermocouple. If it were me, I'd connect the TC to the spark plug washer.
03-15-2005 | 11:53 AM
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From: San Tan Valley,
AZ
RE: Gas Engine Head Temps ANY VALUE?
The temperature probe supplied by Eagletree is a thermister on a wire loop. Eagletree says to loop it around the cylinder at the base of the cylinder.
I have installed the system and the speed and altitude readings seem to be OK. The temperature probe reads 198 with the engine cold. I hope that is just the minimum.
I intend to take it out and try it today.
The transmitter seems to interfere with the control radio. It may take some work to get it working OK.
I have installed the system and the speed and altitude readings seem to be OK. The temperature probe reads 198 with the engine cold. I hope that is just the minimum.
I intend to take it out and try it today.
The transmitter seems to interfere with the control radio. It may take some work to get it working OK.
03-15-2005 | 12:05 PM
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RE: Gas Engine Head Temps ANY VALUE?
Well... these infrared temp guns became popular first with the RC car guys. Cylinder head temp offers a good way of tuning their air-cooled glow engines without the benefit of being able to get an "RPM" reading. RC car engines don't have the blast of cooling air from a big ol' prop skewing the results, so the cyl head temp taken directly atop the glow plug is fairly accurate. Plus glow engines tend to benefit from the cooling affect of a richer mixture much more apparently, so tuning by CHT is actually a fairly good method when RPM reading is not practical.
However, to get a good reading, you will have to hold the gun less than 1" above the head to get a good reading. A good temp gun will give a dispersion ratio, something like 4:1, which means the the target becomes 1" wide if you move the gun 4" away. 1" away from the plug on a small engine can mean a significant difference in temp.
Now... their use on airplane gasoline engines is a whole 'nother ball game. A lot of the cyl head temp quotations, even the ones published in magazine reviews, are clearly skewed by the prop blast. Readings taken on a 50F ambient temp day is vastly different from a 90F day. So what good does it do to list CHT for an engine with different props when they are all less than 250F (as one recent mag article did)? Also, as long as you are not pinging or detonating, a richer mixture for gasser do not produce a signficantly lower CHT, so tuning by temp is dubious at best. EGT can be useful, but an infrared temp gun is a ineffective tool for measuring it.
Personally, I think the infrared temp gun is useful on gasser mostly as a tool to check for overheating in a cowled installation, and to check for temp disparity between cyl in a running multi-cyl engine. As is the case with instrumentation in general, just because you get a lot of "data" with the gun doesn't necessarily mean they offer a lot of useful "info". Try not to draw too many conclusions based on poorly qualified data is worse than if you don't.
However, to get a good reading, you will have to hold the gun less than 1" above the head to get a good reading. A good temp gun will give a dispersion ratio, something like 4:1, which means the the target becomes 1" wide if you move the gun 4" away. 1" away from the plug on a small engine can mean a significant difference in temp.
Now... their use on airplane gasoline engines is a whole 'nother ball game. A lot of the cyl head temp quotations, even the ones published in magazine reviews, are clearly skewed by the prop blast. Readings taken on a 50F ambient temp day is vastly different from a 90F day. So what good does it do to list CHT for an engine with different props when they are all less than 250F (as one recent mag article did)? Also, as long as you are not pinging or detonating, a richer mixture for gasser do not produce a signficantly lower CHT, so tuning by temp is dubious at best. EGT can be useful, but an infrared temp gun is a ineffective tool for measuring it.
Personally, I think the infrared temp gun is useful on gasser mostly as a tool to check for overheating in a cowled installation, and to check for temp disparity between cyl in a running multi-cyl engine. As is the case with instrumentation in general, just because you get a lot of "data" with the gun doesn't necessarily mean they offer a lot of useful "info". Try not to draw too many conclusions based on poorly qualified data is worse than if you don't.
03-15-2005 | 12:53 PM
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From: Left Coast ,
CA
RE: Gas Engine Head Temps ANY VALUE?
The base of the jug is much cooler than the top half inch or so.
Volfy pretty much hit it on the head
Volfy pretty much hit it on the head
ORIGINAL: dirtybird
The temperature probe supplied by Eagletree is a thermister on a wire loop. Eagletree says to loop it around the cylinder at the base of the cylinder.
The temperature probe supplied by Eagletree is a thermister on a wire loop. Eagletree says to loop it around the cylinder at the base of the cylinder.
03-15-2005 | 01:26 PM
#13
RE: Gas Engine Head Temps ANY VALUE?
simply a tool - which must be properly used .
If anyone is looking for "one tool which tells all" ferget it
I find my 25 buck toy meter to be extremely helpful.
The prop blast on a cowled engine typically does NOT blow on the engine --unless the prop is way forward OR there is some provision for air to enter at a different angle
This is why engine mfgrs rcommend an aft opening and flow path to create a low pressure which will allow the meager "prop blast" up front to flow thru the fins and cool things.
If you look at the proximity of the engine fins to the rear of the prop -you will see no real "fan" to blow air thru the fins.
The prop blast works because it creates the low pressure that allows air to flow thru the fins .
My toy meter has helpd me solve flow problems more than once.
If anyone is looking for "one tool which tells all" ferget it
I find my 25 buck toy meter to be extremely helpful.
The prop blast on a cowled engine typically does NOT blow on the engine --unless the prop is way forward OR there is some provision for air to enter at a different angle
This is why engine mfgrs rcommend an aft opening and flow path to create a low pressure which will allow the meager "prop blast" up front to flow thru the fins and cool things.
If you look at the proximity of the engine fins to the rear of the prop -you will see no real "fan" to blow air thru the fins.
The prop blast works because it creates the low pressure that allows air to flow thru the fins .
My toy meter has helpd me solve flow problems more than once.
03-15-2005 | 02:39 PM
#14
RE: Gas Engine Head Temps ANY VALUE?
ORIGINAL: Volfy
Well... these infrared temp guns became popular first with the RC car guys. Cylinder head temp offers a good way of tuning their air-cooled glow engines without the benefit of being able to get an "RPM" reading. RC car engines don't have the blast of cooling air from a big ol' prop skewing the results, so the cyl head temp taken directly atop the glow plug is fairly accurate. Plus glow engines tend to benefit from the cooling affect of a richer mixture much more apparently, so tuning by CHT is actually a fairly good method when RPM reading is not practical.
However, to get a good reading, you will have to hold the gun less than 1" above the head to get a good reading. A good temp gun will give a dispersion ratio, something like 4:1, which means the the target becomes 1" wide if you move the gun 4" away. 1" away from the plug on a small engine can mean a significant difference in temp.
Now... their use on airplane gasoline engines is a whole 'nother ball game. A lot of the cyl head temp quotations, even the ones published in magazine reviews, are clearly skewed by the prop blast. Readings taken on a 50F ambient temp day is vastly different from a 90F day. So what good does it do to list CHT for an engine with different props when they are all less than 250F (as one recent mag article did)? Also, as long as you are not pinging or detonating, a richer mixture for gasser do not produce a signficantly lower CHT, so tuning by temp is dubious at best. EGT can be useful, but an infrared temp gun is a ineffective tool for measuring it.
Personally, I think the infrared temp gun is useful on gasser mostly as a tool to check for overheating in a cowled installation, and to check for temp disparity between cyl in a running multi-cyl engine. As is the case with instrumentation in general, just because you get a lot of "data" with the gun doesn't necessarily mean they offer a lot of useful "info". Try not to draw too many conclusions based on poorly qualified data is worse than if you don't.
Well... these infrared temp guns became popular first with the RC car guys. Cylinder head temp offers a good way of tuning their air-cooled glow engines without the benefit of being able to get an "RPM" reading. RC car engines don't have the blast of cooling air from a big ol' prop skewing the results, so the cyl head temp taken directly atop the glow plug is fairly accurate. Plus glow engines tend to benefit from the cooling affect of a richer mixture much more apparently, so tuning by CHT is actually a fairly good method when RPM reading is not practical.
However, to get a good reading, you will have to hold the gun less than 1" above the head to get a good reading. A good temp gun will give a dispersion ratio, something like 4:1, which means the the target becomes 1" wide if you move the gun 4" away. 1" away from the plug on a small engine can mean a significant difference in temp.
Now... their use on airplane gasoline engines is a whole 'nother ball game. A lot of the cyl head temp quotations, even the ones published in magazine reviews, are clearly skewed by the prop blast. Readings taken on a 50F ambient temp day is vastly different from a 90F day. So what good does it do to list CHT for an engine with different props when they are all less than 250F (as one recent mag article did)? Also, as long as you are not pinging or detonating, a richer mixture for gasser do not produce a signficantly lower CHT, so tuning by temp is dubious at best. EGT can be useful, but an infrared temp gun is a ineffective tool for measuring it.
Personally, I think the infrared temp gun is useful on gasser mostly as a tool to check for overheating in a cowled installation, and to check for temp disparity between cyl in a running multi-cyl engine. As is the case with instrumentation in general, just because you get a lot of "data" with the gun doesn't necessarily mean they offer a lot of useful "info". Try not to draw too many conclusions based on poorly qualified data is worse than if you don't.
Confirmed my impression of the subject. Some folks just have to have the latest "Toy"
If I get one I'd use it as Dick suggests. I doubt I'd ever move up to a Twin gasser till the kids are out of college
Pete
03-15-2005 | 02:40 PM
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RE: Gas Engine Head Temps ANY VALUE?
Dick, the air velocity from the prop blast, and the cooling effect thereof, is the same 3" from the back of the prop, as it is 12" back. Not sure how you could say the cyl heads somehow don't "see" the big ol' fan in front of it. I have had my bare hands very near the cyl heads with the engine running (for taking RPM and temp readings) and, on a cold day, the cooling effect often exceeds what I can bear. 
There might be some near field effect with a large cowl that may reduce the effective thrust the prop generates, but air flow over the fins WILL cool them. That's what the fins on a air-cooled engine are there for.
There might be some near field effect with a large cowl that may reduce the effective thrust the prop generates, but air flow over the fins WILL cool them. That's what the fins on a air-cooled engine are there for.
03-17-2005 | 01:55 AM
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RE: Gas Engine Head Temps ANY VALUE?
Hi dirtybird,
I think you emailed us today also, so sorry if this is a duplicate. The temp should read correctly at all temperatures, including room temp. Make sure you have the temp sensor plugged into the right slot. If this doesn't clear it up, let me know and we'll make sure we get to the bottom of it.
All, one other option for engine temp, which is a bit over the top, but definitely gives complete information, is our EGT expander that plugs into the recorder. It is basically a dual input thermocouple reader, and it lets you simultaneously measure exhaust temp up to 2000F, and you can use another thermocouple lead with a copper ring to fit under your plug. With this setup, you can meausure plug temp, cylinder temp, and exhaust temp simultaneously. Some people swear by EGT as the response is more rapid to tuning changes, and the measurement is more precise since the temp does not vary as much with location, etc.
Regards,
I think you emailed us today also, so sorry if this is a duplicate. The temp should read correctly at all temperatures, including room temp. Make sure you have the temp sensor plugged into the right slot. If this doesn't clear it up, let me know and we'll make sure we get to the bottom of it.
All, one other option for engine temp, which is a bit over the top, but definitely gives complete information, is our EGT expander that plugs into the recorder. It is basically a dual input thermocouple reader, and it lets you simultaneously measure exhaust temp up to 2000F, and you can use another thermocouple lead with a copper ring to fit under your plug. With this setup, you can meausure plug temp, cylinder temp, and exhaust temp simultaneously. Some people swear by EGT as the response is more rapid to tuning changes, and the measurement is more precise since the temp does not vary as much with location, etc.
Regards,
03-17-2005 | 09:04 AM
#17
RE: Gas Engine Head Temps ANY VALUE?
There is no prop blast in the hub area --which is adjacent the cowl inlets.
what flow is there --is kinda a wimpy cross flow
out a few inches -yes -
and THAT blast --passing over the cowl outlet--is what pulls air through .
what flow is there --is kinda a wimpy cross flow
out a few inches -yes -
and THAT blast --passing over the cowl outlet--is what pulls air through .
03-17-2005 | 02:54 PM
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From: San Tan Valley,
AZ
RE: Gas Engine Head Temps ANY VALUE?
ORIGINAL: billpa
Hi dirtybird,
I think you emailed us today also, so sorry if this is a duplicate. The temp should read correctly at all temperatures, including room temp. Make sure you have the temp sensor plugged into the right slot. If this doesn't clear it up, let me know and we'll make sure we get to the bottom of it.
All, one other option for engine temp, which is a bit over the top, but definitely gives complete information, is our EGT expander that plugs into the recorder. It is basically a dual input thermocouple reader, and it lets you simultaneously measure exhaust temp up to 2000F, and you can use another thermocouple lead with a copper ring to fit under your plug. With this setup, you can meausure plug temp, cylinder temp, and exhaust temp simultaneously. Some people swear by EGT as the response is more rapid to tuning changes, and the measurement is more precise since the temp does not vary as much with location, etc.
Regards,
Hi dirtybird,
I think you emailed us today also, so sorry if this is a duplicate. The temp should read correctly at all temperatures, including room temp. Make sure you have the temp sensor plugged into the right slot. If this doesn't clear it up, let me know and we'll make sure we get to the bottom of it.
All, one other option for engine temp, which is a bit over the top, but definitely gives complete information, is our EGT expander that plugs into the recorder. It is basically a dual input thermocouple reader, and it lets you simultaneously measure exhaust temp up to 2000F, and you can use another thermocouple lead with a copper ring to fit under your plug. With this setup, you can meausure plug temp, cylinder temp, and exhaust temp simultaneously. Some people swear by EGT as the response is more rapid to tuning changes, and the measurement is more precise since the temp does not vary as much with location, etc.
Regards,
I have not managed to get a reasonable reading with the temperature. The other parameters seem to be working OK. I have not been able to fly it yet due to other problems. I ran the engine on the ground and got correct RPM readings and when you blow on the pitot tube the airspeed indicator indicates. The altitude reading seems to drift around a bit.
I don't understand why my email does not get to you. Or why you are not getting back to me.
My email address is:
[email protected]
or:
[email protected]
03-17-2005 | 05:37 PM
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From: Bellevue, WA,
RE: Gas Engine Head Temps ANY VALUE?
dirtybird,
We have been answering your email. Do you have a span filter? I am about to send the replies again, and I will send it to both your email addresses. Let me know if you don't receive them.
We have been answering your email. Do you have a span filter? I am about to send the replies again, and I will send it to both your email addresses. Let me know if you don't receive them.
03-17-2005 | 06:58 PM
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From: San Tan Valley,
AZ
RE: Gas Engine Head Temps ANY VALUE?
As an update I have everything working on the Eagletree system. The temperature probe was working all the time. I just didn't have the readout correct. It was being logged in the buffer. I was able to play it back and watch it as I started the engine and checked it.
The temperature would sit at about 100 degrees F while the engine was running. When the engine was stopped it would go to about 250 degrees. When the engine was restarted it would return to 100.
This is an amazing system. As an ex aerospace engineer I know how tough it is to get such systems to work reliably. This system records the data at the same time it telemeters it to a receiver where you can watch it in real time and it also can be recorded. All for $370.
The temperature would sit at about 100 degrees F while the engine was running. When the engine was stopped it would go to about 250 degrees. When the engine was restarted it would return to 100.
This is an amazing system. As an ex aerospace engineer I know how tough it is to get such systems to work reliably. This system records the data at the same time it telemeters it to a receiver where you can watch it in real time and it also can be recorded. All for $370.
03-17-2005 | 07:40 PM
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RE: Gas Engine Head Temps ANY VALUE?
The reason for measuring cylinder head temp or EGT is to set high speed mixture. A hand held tach does just fine and is more indicative of what the airborne mixture should be. Lean to max RPM and then richen slightly ... that's it.
03-17-2005 | 10:31 PM
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From: San Tan Valley,
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RE: Gas Engine Head Temps ANY VALUE?
A hand held meter works fine for initial setting of the needles. It gets a bit hard to hold the meter when you are flying. The Eagletree system records the temp and the RPM while you are flying and allows you to review it after the flight. You can learn so much more when you are recording.
03-20-2005 | 02:54 AM
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RE: Gas Engine Head Temps ANY VALUE?
ORIGINAL: Silversurfer
I'll be darned, I finally found a subject Volfy and I agree on. 'Bout time.
I'll be darned, I finally found a subject Volfy and I agree on. 'Bout time.
Okay, may be not.
