AirTech

My Feedback: (18)

I don't want to start another controversy on which synthetic oil is better, I just need some more information.

Break-in is almost done for my ZDZ 40RV, and I am ready to switch from Pennzoil 2-Cycle Air Cooled oil. I just want to know what the best Ratio Mix is if I use AMSOIL Saber Professional. 100:1 Pre-Mix. I am convinced Amsoil is a very decent oil, but I understand the ZDZ folks don't recommend 100:1 mix after break-in. A friend that owns a 50NG showed me a paper he received with his engine. In these instructions RCS states that they don't recommend 100:1 mix, and on their web site they ONLY recommend Mobil 2T at 40:1 after break-in. Amsoil recommends 80:1, or even 50:1 oil mix, but only for "Severe Duty".

Is there anyone out there with any experience running Amsoil Saber on their ZDZs? Any information will be appreciated.

3dbob37n

I sure can't tell you but I do feel that using the higher oil content will be better for the engine.
I recall the "old master, Clarence Lee, engine designer and manufacturer, wrote several years ago in RCM that he would'nt use less than 32 to 1 ratio and didn't like the higher ratio oils. Personally, I use 40 to 1 regardless of which oil I use.
My Evo 26 had to use 30 to 1 ratio for break in and 40 to 1 after it is broken in.

This is not the technical stuff you wanted but a personal opinion but I think is just based on not pushing things too far and being on the safe side. Better more than less oil.
My 3W uses 50 to 1 and so does my FPE. But I still use 40 to 1 ratio. You can always clean a fouled plug.

3dbob

AirTech

My Feedback: (18)

Hey 3dbob,
I sure appreciate your feedback. When it comes down to the real world application it's experience what counts the most. I may decide to go heavier on the oil mix and may start at 50:1, and see how the plugs take it. If that's too much oil then 80:1 might do it. AMSOIL is a very good product. I know people that have tried to break-in racing motorcycle engines with AMSOIL with no luck. This oil is so good the rings will not "seat" properly. Thanks once more.......Airtech

Diablo-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

Here's how to mix Amsoil correctly for your ZDZ. Add 4 ounces of Mobil MX2T to a gallon of 93 octane gasoline. Take the bottle cap off the Amsoil and waive it once over the gasoline container. Put the cap back on the bottle. Now the gas is ready to use in your ZDZ.

rmh

the ring will seat --
I can not think of a single instance on any modern gas engine where the rings did not seat.
break in oil really is not of much use in these engines
good operating techniques -they are what do the job .

Forgues Research

My Feedback: (7)

More oil is not better for you engine. If the oil company recommends 100:1 then that's what it should be or at the most go to 80:1, Amsoil does say that if you use too much oil you could damage your engine.
So no more oil is not better.

Roger

AirTech

My Feedback: (18)

Hi Dick,

I didn't explain myself correctly. Eventually the rings will seat. Is just that it will take longer when using ANY synthetic oil. As I understand the non-synthetic oil will help wear the surfaces somewhat faster than the synthetic. After the surfaces are permanently seated and the engine is allwys run at the correct operating temperature the wear will slow down to normal. That's when the synthetic oil may extend the life of the engine by further slowing down the wear.

You are correct in that "good operating techniques" is what makes a difference. A lean mixture, and or inadequate cooling will ruin any engine no matter what oil you are using. The fact is that you may run a so called "break-in oil" forever in any engine without causing any damage, just MAYBE reducing the life expectancy.

AirTech

My Feedback: (18)

Aerografixs,

I stand corrected. I agree with you, 100:1 is what Amsoil recomends. I will like to know what RCS have to say about this issue. And I will take full reponsability if it voids any "expressed or implied warranty" by using Amsoil.

Diablo-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

You will learn what others have already found out. Amsoil 100:1 oil will seize the piston in a ZDZ.
The factory and distributors used to specify 50:1 oil. The factory did some testing and found the motors ran cooler and had fewer problems with 40:1 oil (synthetic).

Forgues Research

My Feedback: (7)

Well I'm waiting to learn but I have run this oil at 95:1 for the past 4 years on all my ZDZ engines, Still no problem. an engine is an engine, and the oil manufacturer would know there oil best .
I have all kind of respect for Clarence Lee, but as you said that was some years ago and the oils then were not the oils of today.

Roger

Diablo-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

Roger:
How many hours have you put on one of your ZDZ motors with Amsoil? Any approaching 100 hours?

An oil manufacturer may know their oil best, but wouldn't you think an engine manufacturer would know their engine best?

Forgues Research

My Feedback: (7)

If you have a bad oil mix , you don't need 100 hours to see the results.
Yes engine manufacturers know their engines, but then the oil manufacturers such as Amsoil also know what there oil can do.

To each there own

Each engine is built with basically the same materials, and basically the same tolerances, with our application that is. Not F1 . But not all oils are created equal and the manufacturers of these oils will know a lot better what there oil can do for any engine then the engine manufacturer.
End of story.

Roger

tkg

My Feedback: (1)

If you want to run a 50:1 mix then use the Amsoil Dominator Oil. Thats what its designed for.
The 100:1 oils when run at 50:1 very often will carbon badly and stick rings.

JoeAirPort

My Feedback: (41)

Exactly. If it's a 100:1 oil then mix it 100:1 (of course 95:1 won't hurt it). Otherwise don't use it.

bpryor

My Feedback: (45)

No, not necessarily. Engine manufacurer's decide on an oil they like the best and recommend that oil and what ratio to run it at. It's easy and safe for them to do that. They do not test with all oils. Oil manufacturer's know best what ratio to run their oil at in specific applications. There is nothing magical about ZDZ's that would require some special oil. Amsoil 100:1 should be run at 100:1 or close to it, and I have run it in many, many brands of engines, including ZDZ's for many, many hours, without any issues. Amsoil does say for their 100:1 oil, that you can mix it at 80:1 for heavy-duty(or some similar verbiage) applications, such as racing....I do not think our application qualifies as heavy-duty, but I think you're safe running at 80:1 if it makes you feel more comfortable. DA recommends Amsoil 100:1 at 100:1 for their engines and it seems to work quite well.

Diablo-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

Engine manufacturers and their distributors handle the warranty repair work. They work on hundreds of motors every year. They can see quickly when a pattern develops. If they see scorched pistons or other internal engine damage, they ask the customer what oil and ratio. Then they steer the customers away from oils and ratios that have an unusually higher failure rate in their engines.

The JASO oil test program recognizes that lean oil ratios promote piston seizure from lack of adequate lubrication. They test all candidate oils in the exact same manner at the exact same oil ratios. They do an "engine tightening test" where they reduce cooling airflow to the cylinder to raise the engine temperature and measure the torque reduction due to piston/cylinder friction.

All engines are not created equally. Just as all oils are not created equally. Engine alloys, cooling fin design, piston/cylinder clearance and power output vary greatly. One example...DA cylinder temps are a lot cooler than 3W cylinder temps (typically 30-40F difference). Maybe that's part of the reason that 3W and ZDZ say not to run Amsoil at 100:1(voids warranty), whereas DA recommends Amsoil 100:1. The only advantage to running Amsoil 100:1 is that there is less unburned oil on the plane.

TLH101

My Feedback: (90)

I think it would be really cool, if all, or even one of the "nay-sayers" could show, even one case where it was proven that Amsoil, mixed at 100:1, damaged an engine. For years I have been hearing that it is not enough oil. Well I say "prove it". Then I will stop running 100:1 Amsoil at 100:1 mix.

bpryor

My Feedback: (45)

So, you're saying Amsoil didn't pass their tests? If so, will you please publish the results here.

Are you saying that 3W and ZDZ's factory warranty(and I don't mean something a distributor says) specifically calls out Amsoil and says you can't run it? I'd like to see that too.

Is that a scientific statement? Do you have some test data from a scientific study that proves that this is the only benefit of Amsoil?

Here are the ratings on Amsoil Saber 100:1 - ISO-L-EGO, JASO FC, API TC. I do not know what each one of these means, but I believe this at least says that it has passed some level of JASO testing. Maybe someone has the meaning of these different ratings.

flyinrazrback

My Feedback: (69)

I think everyone is getting too wrapped up in all this oil talk. Bottom line is that you running it lean burns up the engine, not the oil. However, if an engine manufactuer tells/recommends a certain oil or ratio, maybe the customer should run it that way. If the motor fails, and you run the engine just like the engine manufacturer tells you to, its very hard for them to get out of repairing it free of charge. Just my .02

bpryor

My Feedback: (45)

That's true, if your concern is getting warranty service, but warranties are soon up and you should run any good quality oil that you like.

The point I believe of continuing these discussions(for the millionth time), is people continue to spread misinformation about 100:1 because the don't understand it, or for some non-factual reason, believe there is an issue with it. Remember, because an engine manufacturer recommends a specific oil for their engine is not because it is necessarily the best, or the only oil the will work well in their engines, but because they have tested with that oil, know that it does work, and it becomes a constant(and possibly other reasons I allude to below). It is much EASIER for them to recommend one oil than to provide a list of oils that they approve.

Both ZDZ and MVVS recommend Mobil 2T. I would be very interested if this has anything to do with availability, or cost, in their regions. That is in no way suggesting that 2T is not an excellent oil, it is, but there's no way to know for sure what the reasons are that 2T is the only oil they recommend. I doubt very much they came up with their choice by extensively testing all the 2 stroke oils on the market.

To restate my primary point; just because a manufacturer recommends a specific oil, it does not mean that is the only oil that will work well in that engine.

flyinrazrback

My Feedback: (69)

I agree. I ran 100:1 amsoil in my DAs for a couple years no prob. Dave @ DA said if I burned up my motor from running 100:1 he would send me a brand new one no prob. If you look in 3ws manual, they now also state you can use amsoil 100:1 in them as well, but I always liked 80:1 (what they used to recommend). Now I run bel ray MC-1 @ 50:1, not for the fact that more oil is better, but that oil works best at 50:1, not 100:1.

Diablo-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

Proof? OK. Search for RCbugman's oil tests with a 3W-50. Scored the piston while running Amsoil at 100:1. Only oil that scored the piston in his tests. Produced the lowest power of any oil/ratio tested. Amsoil at 100:1 did not reduce the carbon on the piston. You tell me what the advantage is besides less oil on the plane. Your turn....

Josey Wales

My Feedback: (61)

Well heres my story..I have a DA 50 with 20gallons thru it..had to send it in for the updates after about 16..broke it in on 4 gal of 32:1 then ran Amsoil 100:1 at 80:1..When I called to ask how the engine was Dave told me that the inside of the engine, when they took it apart looked immaculate...so Im going to stick to the 80:1 in this DA and the one I have on thw way!

bpryor

My Feedback: (45)

That's as about as far from proof as you can get. Read my post in that thread. That was by no means a scientific, controlled test. I meant proof from an accredited scientific oil testing organization, such as ISO, JASO or API... which, as mentioned above, have already tested the oil and applied their ratings.

Results from single users here and there that want to claim an oil isn't any good because of some failure they had, with visual signs they want to attribute to the oil, are of no value. There can be dozens of reasons for any "sign" in an engine, such as scuffing, that have nothing to do with the oil.

Diablo-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

The Bugman's test was simply change one variable at a time. The oil and ratio. I was asked to show just one engine that was damaged from Amsoil at 100:1. A more scientific test would involve a larger sample size for statistics. The JASO oil tests just put oil in 3 different categories. Good, better, best. The JASO tests will not tell you which oil within a category is best, nor what ratio to run the oil.