I'm trying to decide if I want to try a gas engine on my H9 27% Extra 260 kit. I am quite impressed with what I've read about Taurus engines, and was definitely impressed with Bill O. when I spoke with him yesterday. The 52 is really too much for this airplane, but it only weighs three more ounces than the 42, and it has a throttle...

I'm trying to determine comparative weights between the T-52 and a DA 50. I'm talking the TOTAL package (less prop/spinner) that mounts on the airplane. The T-52, with radial mount and muffler, is about 60 ounces. I am not interested in insane power; but I intend to get a 30% airplane eventually, and the T-52 would be fine for that.

The reason I am using the DA 50 for comparison is because several folks have this engine on this airplane and seem to be satified with the combination. One guy on another forum said it was too heavy for him, but I suspect he is into extreme 3D where every extra ounce hurts- either real, or perceived.

I have NO interest in 3D, extreme or otherwise. Sport flying is my thing, and I intend to try IMAC just for grins.

Another caveat that is non-negotiable is, whatever engine I choose must run well on white gas/Coleman-type fuel. I store my models in the house and cannot tolerate any gasoline odor. Bill O. said he was going to try some of this fuel in a TS-52 this week.

So, can anyone tell me what a DA 50 with mount & Pitts muffler weighs?

Well, on the left side of your TX, you will find a lever. This lever controls throttle as well as rudder.
Just pulling your leg. The fact is that you rarely can have too much power and you have a throttle and should use it to govern how much power you want. Rarely does anyone fly with full power these days. They go for big engines and use full power for verticals or to get out of trouble. The rest of the time they are back to half throttle or so.

So go for the biggest, the meanest and snarliest engine you can squeeze in. And use your throttle to control that beast. There is nothing more frustrating than flying a model that is borderline powered and nothing more satisfying than flying a model that has reserve power to get out of trouble.

So go for the most powerful engine is my vote.

3dbob

I have to disagree that you can't have too much power. For your IMAC application a Taurus 52 would be overkill on a 27% bird. The reason relates to the size of the prop. Larger engines require larger props. Larger props can cause ground strikes more easily and generate more torque that has to be dealt with while flying all the time. You can use a three blade, but they not as efficient. I always argue tthat you should "let the engine match the application". If you want to do 3D, fine, but if you don't, then a smaller engine can still give you unlimited vertical (desirable) but not provide the overkill (or price) you don't need.

I am flying a bird of my own design that has an 82" span and weighs 16 lbs. It has a DA50 and that is insanely too much. It accelerates up on 1/2 throttle! If I did it again I would probably put on a 35 to 40 - a G38 converted, for example. I have a G38 on a 15 lb giant Stik and it also accelerates up, but at full throttle.

If your worried about the weight of the gasser--then the BME 44cc (2.7) might be the answer. It's lightweight and will easily swing a 20" prop.

PLENTY of power, but not insane. Lightweight--perfect for the APPLICATION at hand.

Don't buy a big huge engine for a small airframe in anticipation of yanking the engine out later and putting it on a bigger plane.

Buy an engine for each airframe. My rule is "Never strip an airplane that still flies." You don't want to install the engine on your 260 and fly it for a year and then yank the engine out of a perfectly good airplane just to install it in another airframe. Thats not the way to do it.

Buy the BME 44cc engine for your 260 airframe and fly it. When you get a 30% plane--then buy a ZDZ60, 3W-75 or a G-62 and convert it to electronic ignition.

Don't strip the engine out of a good airplane. If you can't afford to buy an engine for each airframe--then scale back to glow size planes and forget about gassers.

My HONEST opinion. Not meant to offend. Just the way I see it and the way I think.

Steve, I am in the same boat as you and have gone 'round and round' in deciding what to power a 27.5% Extra 260 with. My kit is in the final sanding stages and I think it will weigh a little more than the Hanger 9. Not totally sure about that yet. My kit (Miles Reed) is an older design but I enlarged the elevators and rudder in hopes of getting it a little more 3-d capable. First I wanted a light 50 cc, then I decided I needed a 40 cc. for better wing loading. I've had good luck with the Brison line and settled on a 2.4. Changed my mind again and started searching for a BME 44. (hopefully a near new used one for a great price). Now I'm looking at the MVVS/Evolution 45 mg. I'd prefer to save some $ with a reliable used BME 44, but if I have to buy new, I think either the MVVS or Evolution 45 MG might be the ticket. I can't seem to "get off the pot" on this one![sm=confused.gif] Oh yeah, I considered a Taurus 2.4 but like you say, their 3.2 is only a few ounces heavier and then I got even more confused. Oh well, that's what makes this hobby so much fun

good to see others are having the same delima... I really can't decide either. I've also got the H9 260. I think if I go glow I'll give the Moki 2.10 a try, but I didn't buy this plane to go glow, I bought it as my entry level gasser. It's just the price difference, between `$350 and ~$600-700 for gas that's got me sitting on the fence. I like the DA, I but damn it's $700 by the time you get the muffler, and drill guide. I think the cheapest I've found so far is the BME for gas and the OS 1.60 for glow. I can't decide. I'd love to find a NIB DA for $500, I've seen some come through the marketplace but I wasn't in the maket in time.

oh yeah i'm also looking at the zdz 40 and 50ng as well... too many choices

Many thanks for those well-thought-out opinions.

Gerald, I hear you regarding too much power/prop torque. I can see where that could cause some problems during structured manuevers.

RcPilet, I hate to go against your grain, but I'm an engine-swapping fool. I can only fly one at a time, and can only take one big one to the field (a bigger ride is the FIRST thing I'm going to get when I retire). Having more than one plane for a favored engine works fine for me; its like getting a new plane when you re-commission one that's been on the shelf for a while. And why should I forget about gassers? I'm trying to scale UP to this; I've already had a bunch of glow planes. And it is not about being able to afford more than one engine. I've got more in the servos for this model than the kit OR the engine costs/will cost. I will re-consider a 40cc class engine, but not because I'm a cheapskate.

Bass 1, this is a real quandary, eh? I'm still leaning toward Taurus, because of the instant, KNOWLEDGEABLE help just a phone call way. Call Horizon about one of those gassers, and you're liable to get some part-time college kid who can tell methanol from gasoline two out three times; on a good day.

Anyway, like you said, deciding what to get is half the fun. Research continues...[8D]

So... anybody know the weight of a DA 50 with stand-offs and Pitts muffler???

camss69,

ZDZ is out for me; they won't run well on white gas. Yeah, this is a real puzzler. Fortunately, I'm not in a hurry on it. My kit just arrived today (undamaged, finally), and I've got the WH Edge and two other projects that I need to finish before I start something else.

Let's keep this going though; between the bunch of us, we should be able to figure something out...

Hey Steve,

I think I talked to you before in another thread, what's the deal on the white gas? Are you talking like the Coleman camping fuel type in the little green bottles? I've just never heard of the stuff being used for model airplane engines. I also heard the ZDZ needs high octane, guy at the field is running an 80 with 91 unleaded with octane booster.

I think you mentioned the 73" edge before, it's funny because I was also looking at that exact same model even called for a stock status on them. If I didn't get the H9 I more than likely would have ended up with the edge.

The weight of the DA at the hobby shop using their scale with 2.5" standoffs was 3.13lbs. Don't know how much the muffler weighs, and that's not including the ignition module.

This looks promising,

http://www.horizonhobby.com/Shop/ByC...rodID=EVOE45GX

or you can get the mvvs version for $511,

weight looks good at 2.8lbs

DA50 with Slimline Pitts muffler, no smoke coil, 2.5" standoffs, prop washer and bolts.....3 lb. 13 oz. BUT, I don't have the ignition weight for you.[] I'd guess it at 6 oz. or so. Maybe someone will chime in here with the real weight of it. If you go with the stock DA muffler subtract 6 oz.

Weights below are real world garnered from my 5lb. digital scale.

GLOW:

OS 1.60 weighs 32ozs. Stock OS muffler weighs 9.37ozs., engine mounts weighs 4.25ozs.

All up weight 2lbs.-13.62ozs. or 45.62ozs.

=================================

Moki 2.1 at 3lbs.-5.12 ozs. with radial mount
mounting bolts at less say 3ozs.
Pitts type exhaust will weigh at least 9.5 ozs.

All up weight Moki 2.1 is 4lbs.-1.62ozs.

==================================

Gassers:

3W24 weighs 51ozs. complete with ignition, back-plate mount and Pitts exhaust.

==================================

Taurus Engines 2.6 at 3lbs.-1oz.
C&H Ignition at 3.7 ozs.
spark plug 1.4ozs.

Taurus 2.6 is 3lbs-4.714ozs.

ADD;

Down tube exhaust 6.5 ozs.
CNC Pitts type exhaust at 9.5 ozs.
Radial engine mount 2oz.

==================================

The ZDZ 40 RV with plug and Ignition weighs in at 3lbs.-2.24 ozs. Plus engine mounting and exhaust system

==================================

FPE at 3lbs.-4.5ozs. with mount, down tube exhaust and ignition

==================================

BME 44 at 3lbs.-12.75ozs. with mount, down tube exhaust, ignition and sparkplug

==================================

BME 50 at 4lbs.- 3.5 ozs. with mount, down tube exhaust,
ignition and sparkplug

==================================

Brison 3.2:
3.2 engine, prop nut and washer 3lbs.-2.4ozs.
stock back-plate engine mount, bolts and washers 2.8ozs.
stock aluminum down tube exhaust deflector 7ozs.
stock C/H Ignition 4.4ozs.
Champion sparkplug 1.4ozs.

Total weight is 4lbs.-2ozs.

==================================

DA50 at 3lbs.-12ozs. with ignition, stock DA muffler, 2.5� stand-offs, prop bolts and washer.

Slimline Pitts style muffler less smoke pre-heater coil add 6ozs.

==================================

Michael, you're my hero. Thanks for the great info.

I just went through a very similar quandary trying to figure out whether to go with a MVVS 58 or 45MG in my 87" Yak....but the decision factor was different than Steve's because I did want 3d capability. BTW, there were other engines out there that would also be good options, specifically, as most people know, I'm a devout Taurus follower, but I also like to experiment with things on the bleeding edge, so I wanted to try out the MVVS's.

I went ahead and bought a 58, with the primary decision factor being flexibility. Like Steve, I can only have one plane at a time, and I like to swap planes a lot, so I wanted an engine that left me with the most options. I figured that was the 58, and boy did I want to try out that engine which would give the Yak obscene power, but the sane side of me prevailed, and when I found out the plane was going to be approaching 19lbs with the 58 instead of the 16.5 I had planned on, the 58 went on the block and I bought the 45. I only have 1.5 hours on the engine, but it has performed perfectly and has had plenty of power, even though I haven't leaned it down from factory settings yet(hopefully this weekend).

Ok, with all that said(sorry for the rambling, but I tend to do that a lot ), a couple of observations for you guys wanting a light gas engine. The 45MG is light, but you already knew that, but on the downside, for a smaller plane anyway, it is designed to run big props. I have a 24X8 on it now and I'm putting the recommended 24X10 Mejzlik on this weekend to test it out. That doesn't mean it wouldn't perform well with a 22X8 or 10, but it probably wouldn't be optimum. The HP peak is at approx 7200 RPM, so the engine should run well in the range with a 22X8 or 10, but the torque peak is down at 6,000, which is why it can turn such big props for its size.

The 45 weighs exactly what is advertised: 3lbs 4oz with everything(2 prop washers, prop bolts(3 - BTW, I don't use them), nut(I use 2), plug, ignition, and exhaust gasket and bolts) except the muffler. My canister and header are 12 oz, but as mentioned you can get down in the 7oz range with a light choker...err, I mean muffler. Reportedly, the ZDZ60 Bisson muffler will work for it. I have no idea how much it weighs.

No surprise, but I'd go with the Taurus 2.6 or 3.2, or the MVVS, but if service is a big factor, then the choice is even easier: Taurus.

Thanks, Michael; that's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks to you too, nogyro.

camss69, the deal on the white gas is odor; or, more specifically, the lack thereof. I keep my models in the house; now that all the kids are gone (thank God!), I have three spare bedrooms, and I took over one as a model room.

I had a gas helicopter a few years back, and despite all precautions (empty tank, tightly plugged vents, etc.), the gasoline odor permeated the house. And the only way I could keep the odor from permeating my Explorer during the trip to the field was to put the jug into a military ammo can. That kept the odor in, but after about an hour the warm ambient temperatures caused enough expansion to pop the vent and fill hoses, so when I opened the can... IOW, my initial experience with gasoline was very unsatisfactory.

A few buddies are running this Coleman-style lantern fuel in their gas helicopters, and tell me there is NO odor at all, during use OR storage. Apparently, there are several brands of this "white gas" lantern fuel besides the Coleman label; my good friend Bill Meador, who is THE gas helicopter guru, uses the brand Wally World sells.

Bill, all the reading I've done so far is guiding me toward the Taurus. Apparently they are among the most expensive of the gassers, but what's another $100+ extra when I've already sunk this much into an airplane.

And I thought the freakin' helicopters were expensive...[&o]

mglavin,

Thanks for the list of engine weights. That whole post went into the "saved" file.

Actually the taurus seem pretty good price wise.

TS 42 42cc 2.6c.i. engine complete including a Pitts style muffler auto ignition and radial.mount Special till end of month $589.00 in stock
TS 52 52cc 3.2c.i. same as above $629.00 1/week to ten days from receipt of order.seriously having a hard time keeping up with the orders.

That's what he emailed back when I asked him last night.

That's the best prices yet I think since they come with the pitts mufflers..

Steve, there are several good threads on RCU about using white gas and from what I can remember most people that used it were really happy with it. I think there is slight performance hit, but if I remember correctly it wasn't very much.

As camss69 wrote, I don't really think they're any more than the other high-end gassers, or maybe even less. As camss69 said, they come with an excellent pitts-style muffler as part of the price.

BTW, if you're still on the fence on which size engine to get, I don't think I mentioned it, but I had a Taurus 2.6 and besides being light, it is definitely strong too. I looked up some of my old numbers and I was getting 7200 RPM on a Zinger Pro 22X8 and 6500 RPM on a 22X10 Menz S....and that was with only a couple of gallons through it.....but with that said, if it was me, I'd probably still get the 3.2 just because of the upgrade possibilities.

One change to your Brison 3.2 figures.. My Bisson standard down tube muffler weighs 4 oz, giving me a total wieght of 62oz. Thanks.

As you noted your noise maker is a Bisson verses that which was supplied by Brison for my engine.

FWIW: The Brison I owned along with the down tube noise deflector was around four years ago now.

Well, as bpryor pointed out the Mvvs/Evolution 45 engines are happier swinging the larger (24") props. That's not going to work too well with my Extra 260. I had a custom composite landing gear made for it that had longer legs and it didn't look right. The stock (scale) gear is going to be too short for a 24 inch prop. My plane needs a 20" prop, so now I'm back to either a Brison 2.4 or the Taurus 2.4 It looks like the Brison is lighter but I'm not sure how they compare in power.

Hi Bass1,

The Taurus is actually a 2.6. The Brison 2.4 is an excellent engine with an excellent reputation, and it puts out good power. You are talking about a very small difference in weight, but from all the numbers I've ever seen(mine and many others), the Taurus does have measurably more power. Even if they were even in design the extra .2 cu. in. is going to make a difference.

Steve, since you are white gas (Coleman Fuel) guy, stay away from those engines that recommend premium gas, ZDZ being one of them. Most Sachs cylinder engines and the Zenoah line are reported to work well with white gas , the octane of which is about 85, rather than 87 for regular and 93 for premium.

Steve Cambell I can't answer your question about "white gas," being used in the Taurus, but I can tell you this from from my own personel experience with with the two engines you mentioned. The Taurus 3.2, and the DA 50.
Even though this subject has been debated for many months now, I know this will get it going again. You ask the "Forum a question, and I think you're intitled to our opinion as long as we keep it on "Subject.
Your question was directed toward two specific engines, The DA, 50 and the Taurus, 3.2. But, I'll bet every other engine make will be brought into the equasion. So...,Here's the on the difference I personally found between the two engines. "Taurus 3.2 and DA 50."
The DA 50, is not equal to the Taurus at this particular time because even though you'll otherwise, The DA 50, still has some bugs that need to be sorted out. I've owned both engines so I think I can speak with some 1st hand knowledge. Or, better yet, just go to any flying field when someone is running a DA 50, and listen for yourself. You'll see.
I'm running a Taurus 3.2 in an 87" Yak 54, (16lbs), and it has much more power than is needed for unlimited 3D. The Taurus is also far superior to the DA in throttle response, midrange, and especially in viberation.
There you go. That's my opinion based on my experience between the two engines.
The truth is, your question can be researched quite easily right here, right now. Just do a search on the two engines and you'll have your answer in a very short time, which engine, is the best engine for your 27% aircraft.
As far as the weight difference between the two engines,probably not enough to even consider.

Again, many thanks for all the thoughtful responses.

But the more I look into this, the more I wonder if this airplane (78" @ 1100 square inches) is really too small for a gasser. More correctly, is it too small for the extra weight involved?

I was checking out my pal's WH 28% Extra yesterday. By the time you add up an ignition battery/switch, an extra (redundant) rx battery and switch- which I think is a GREAT idea- and the extra weight of the engine/muffler (as opposed to the weight of a glow engine/muffler), you're talking several extra pounds. I'm sure the airplane will fly well with that weight, especially since the power will be more than enough. But will it turn into a landing pig due to the increased wing loading?

You would think that, after almost 20 years in this hobby, I would be able to make a decision like this rather easily... But there is much to consider, as this is new ground for me.

Time to back off and study some more. But it seems like the more I study, the more confused I get...[&o]