CF tuned pipes feedback please
07-23-2007, 05:51 PM
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CF tuned pipes feedback please
Hello
I would like to try a set of two ES composites tuned pipe on a DA-100 and tune them to turn PT 28x10 prop around 6700-6800RPM. I fly at sea level the plane will be a 35% Extra 260 in the 28-29 lbs and i need maximum power for IMAC sequences flying and good midrange.
The weight saving and power boost of these CF pipes are very attractive but i have some questions before going ahead.
For those you got experience with ES Composite tuned pipes, i would like to get some feedback:
1) do they crack after 1 season?
2) Are they ''peaky'' and give only high top speed or do they have a good midrange?
3) Do you recommend them?
4) What RPM can you get?
5) any comments?
Daniel
I would like to try a set of two ES composites tuned pipe on a DA-100 and tune them to turn PT 28x10 prop around 6700-6800RPM. I fly at sea level the plane will be a 35% Extra 260 in the 28-29 lbs and i need maximum power for IMAC sequences flying and good midrange.
The weight saving and power boost of these CF pipes are very attractive but i have some questions before going ahead.
For those you got experience with ES Composite tuned pipes, i would like to get some feedback:
1) do they crack after 1 season?
2) Are they ''peaky'' and give only high top speed or do they have a good midrange?
3) Do you recommend them?
4) What RPM can you get?
5) any comments?
Daniel
07-23-2007, 06:36 PM
#2
RE: CF tuned pipes feedback please
Two questions :
you want to use a 28x10 prop?
you want 6900 rpm?
You may get to 6900 on some props -- but that prop may be too much load - you simply can not increase power past the engines capabilities.
If you think that engine has the capability to do 6900 on the 28x10 prop - you best setup a bench and do some staged tests . frankly I don't think it will do it
It may- but getting a smooth "no flat spot" no "goes lean" on the pipe, may be too much to expect
bear in mind : as th power goes up th e heat goes up ( can't change that law) so the carb must really pour in the fuel as the final power is reached
The engine has to do this or burn up.
Does not matter who makes it .
try long pipes about 28-30 " from exhaust to baffle -on a light load 27" prop . Once you work that out - try for more load but be assured the length must increase as the rpm goes down. My 80 super turns the 27x10 Mejzlic at 6600 on the ground and is very smooth - this required a 28" long setup on the AMT pipe - this is a larger volume pipe but the resonance is based on length
try it out but start long and be prepared to run rich onth high needle .
friend Ray runs his DA100 on the CF pipes but shorter headers AND a 26x10 prop-- terrific power -good transition..
you want to use a 28x10 prop?
you want 6900 rpm?
You may get to 6900 on some props -- but that prop may be too much load - you simply can not increase power past the engines capabilities.
If you think that engine has the capability to do 6900 on the 28x10 prop - you best setup a bench and do some staged tests . frankly I don't think it will do it
It may- but getting a smooth "no flat spot" no "goes lean" on the pipe, may be too much to expect
bear in mind : as th power goes up th e heat goes up ( can't change that law) so the carb must really pour in the fuel as the final power is reached
The engine has to do this or burn up.
Does not matter who makes it .
try long pipes about 28-30 " from exhaust to baffle -on a light load 27" prop . Once you work that out - try for more load but be assured the length must increase as the rpm goes down. My 80 super turns the 27x10 Mejzlic at 6600 on the ground and is very smooth - this required a 28" long setup on the AMT pipe - this is a larger volume pipe but the resonance is based on length
try it out but start long and be prepared to run rich onth high needle .
friend Ray runs his DA100 on the CF pipes but shorter headers AND a 26x10 prop-- terrific power -good transition..
07-23-2007, 07:22 PM
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RE: CF tuned pipes feedback please
Hello Dick
I am glad to see you in that thread!
I sent a few emails with Ed Skorepa but i do not have feedback about the ES pipes smooth midrange?
ED gave my some data on the DA-100:
Here in Utah at 4500'
a) 7500-7600 on mejzilck 26x10 and 8''-9'' header
b) 7200 Mejzlik 27x10 and 7000 RPM on PT 27x10 and 11-12'' header
c) 6700-6800 on PT 28x10 and 13 '' header
Pipe specs:
ES50G
Designed for 50 cc gas engines.
Length 26" (edge to edge)
Body DIA 2"
Inlet DIA 1"
Weigh 120g (4.23 oz)
This will be my first experience with pipes and my plane will be set up for IMAC only. So, i need low noise (IMAC rules), great midrange and transition for long vertical lines and unlimited vertical snap rolls. Most pilots use PT 28x10 on their DA-100 for IMAC here (6100-6200RPM). That's why i thought 28'' prop was the ticket?
From what you wrote here, I prefer to loose some TOP RPMs for better midrange. If i understand well, you propose to tune the pipes for 27'' prop instead of 28''? If i go with a PT 27x10, i shall use 11-12'' header and expect 7000 RPMs assuming the DA-100 can turn the same prop 4500 ASL and at sea level. IMAC rules ask to keep noise under 92 db. Is 7000 RPM on PT 27x10 to noisy?
This is critical for me. The DA-100 instruction manual says the Power band is 5700 to 6800 RPM, so, 7000 RPM may be over that power band?
Daniel
I am glad to see you in that thread!
I sent a few emails with Ed Skorepa but i do not have feedback about the ES pipes smooth midrange?
ED gave my some data on the DA-100:
Here in Utah at 4500'
a) 7500-7600 on mejzilck 26x10 and 8''-9'' header
b) 7200 Mejzlik 27x10 and 7000 RPM on PT 27x10 and 11-12'' header
c) 6700-6800 on PT 28x10 and 13 '' header
Pipe specs:
ES50G
Designed for 50 cc gas engines.
Length 26" (edge to edge)
Body DIA 2"
Inlet DIA 1"
Weigh 120g (4.23 oz)
This will be my first experience with pipes and my plane will be set up for IMAC only. So, i need low noise (IMAC rules), great midrange and transition for long vertical lines and unlimited vertical snap rolls. Most pilots use PT 28x10 on their DA-100 for IMAC here (6100-6200RPM). That's why i thought 28'' prop was the ticket?
If you think that engine has the capability to do 6900 on the 28x10 prop - you best setup a bench and do some staged tests . frankly I don't think it will do it
It may- but getting a smooth "no flat spot" no "goes lean" on the pipe, may be too much to expect
bear in mind : as th power goes up th e heat goes up ( can't change that law) so the carb must really pour in the fuel as the final power is reached
The engine has to do this or burn up.
Does not matter who makes it .
try long pipes about 28-30 " from exhaust to baffle -on a light load 27" prop . Once you work that out - try for more load but be assured the length must increase as the rpm goes down.
It may- but getting a smooth "no flat spot" no "goes lean" on the pipe, may be too much to expect
bear in mind : as th power goes up th e heat goes up ( can't change that law) so the carb must really pour in the fuel as the final power is reached
The engine has to do this or burn up.
Does not matter who makes it .
try long pipes about 28-30 " from exhaust to baffle -on a light load 27" prop . Once you work that out - try for more load but be assured the length must increase as the rpm goes down.
but getting a smooth "no flat spot" no "goes lean" on the pipe, may be too much to expect
bear in mind : as th power goes up th e heat goes up ( can't change that law) so the carb must really pour in the fuel as the final power is reached
bear in mind : as th power goes up th e heat goes up ( can't change that law) so the carb must really pour in the fuel as the final power is reached
Daniel
07-23-2007, 09:44 PM
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RE: CF tuned pipes feedback please
I have had five ES pipes two on DA50's one one zdz40, They are very light and give unreal power as Dick said tune them right and you will get just the performance you want I did however encounter a problem with the two on DA50's they both failed I sent them back to ES and was told that they were cooked Ed said some pipes in side came loose so I'm out $500.00 this happened with only 12 flights on one not sure the exact amount of flights on the second one but less than 20. The pipe on the ZDZ40 seems to be fine but I don't have a lot of flights on it. As for RPM my ZDZ40 gets 6950 on a 22x10 mejzilk, my two DA's both turned the same prop at 7650 mid range was excelent and throtle response was "right now". Would I recomende them well after loosing $500.00 I would say NO. By the way the other two pipes that I had I sent them back and got a full refund less the frieght both ways. Just my .02
07-24-2007, 07:55 AM
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RE: CF tuned pipes feedback please
Ouch, It was an expensive experience...
Did ES Composites redesign their pipes to solve these problems? If they did not, i may look at heavier/stronger pipes like AMT/BMB or KS.
Daniel
Did ES Composites redesign their pipes to solve these problems? If they did not, i may look at heavier/stronger pipes like AMT/BMB or KS.
Daniel
07-24-2007, 04:08 PM
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RE: CF tuned pipes feedback please
1) do they crack after 1 season? i have had mine about 30 flights so far so good
2) Are they ''peaky'' and give only high top speed or do they have a good midrange? no peakness controled by header lengh good all at all throttle settings
3) Do you recommend them? yes very light weight
running a 23A vess seems like the rpm was high 6k range in the 68-6900 range not sure anymore
2) Are they ''peaky'' and give only high top speed or do they have a good midrange? no peakness controled by header lengh good all at all throttle settings
3) Do you recommend them? yes very light weight
running a 23A vess seems like the rpm was high 6k range in the 68-6900 range not sure anymore
07-24-2007, 06:58 PM
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RE: CF tuned pipes feedback please
Dude, 500$ for only 20-30 flights do not worth it in my book. I do not want to wait for CF pipe replacement every month for each IMAC competition.[
]
I gave a call to DA this afternoon and they suggest me the new 50CC MTW tuned pipe for the DA-100. Lighter than KS and stronger than ES.
http://www.mtw-daempfer.de/
Daniel
]I gave a call to DA this afternoon and they suggest me the new 50CC MTW tuned pipe for the DA-100. Lighter than KS and stronger than ES.
http://www.mtw-daempfer.de/
Daniel
07-24-2007, 07:17 PM
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RE: CF tuned pipes feedback please
Yes and look at the price seems like about half I have switched to KS 1060 heaver but they don't burn out and they are a lot cheaper
07-25-2007, 08:37 PM
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RE: CF tuned pipes feedback please
Cygnet, thanks for your comments in this thread. I do not know your real name but here is what ED has to say about the defect pipes:
Hi Daniel,
yes, two pipes out of 200 sold so far failed internally. There are 8 tubes in a muffler section which are hard pressed in. Mr Peperkorn was running his engine so hot, that those tubes have shrank by 0.5mm and got loose. Why his exhaust got so hot is mystery. I've spent two weeks trying to duplicate the same damage and I couldn't do it. I've put extra baffles made in the same fashion into my post curing oven, and baked them for six hours at 700 F (this is the max temp my oven can go) - no failure. The exhaust temp of 50cc engine in muffler section is only 400-500 F. Mr Peperkorn's temp. in muffler section must have been at least 900 F. The good news is, the pipe didn't burn, it was a mechanical failure. Mr Peperkorn doesn't remember well. Firstly, he told me that both pipes failed on 4th flight, then he's changed the story to 12th flight. He doesn't even remember how many pipes he bought from me. I've wasted whole day searching for the records when I actually made and shipped him those two pipes. It has turned out, he's bought those pipes from someone else on internet. Funny thing is, I would actually pay him $$$ if he would tell me what really happened.
After thorough testing, I believe pipes are sound and will last at least 1000 flights. Are they bullet proof? - NO. Quite frankly, nothing is bullet proof. Aluminum pipes fail too (blowing baffles, burning thru etc.).
Regards,
Ed
yes, two pipes out of 200 sold so far failed internally. There are 8 tubes in a muffler section which are hard pressed in. Mr Peperkorn was running his engine so hot, that those tubes have shrank by 0.5mm and got loose. Why his exhaust got so hot is mystery. I've spent two weeks trying to duplicate the same damage and I couldn't do it. I've put extra baffles made in the same fashion into my post curing oven, and baked them for six hours at 700 F (this is the max temp my oven can go) - no failure. The exhaust temp of 50cc engine in muffler section is only 400-500 F. Mr Peperkorn's temp. in muffler section must have been at least 900 F. The good news is, the pipe didn't burn, it was a mechanical failure. Mr Peperkorn doesn't remember well. Firstly, he told me that both pipes failed on 4th flight, then he's changed the story to 12th flight. He doesn't even remember how many pipes he bought from me. I've wasted whole day searching for the records when I actually made and shipped him those two pipes. It has turned out, he's bought those pipes from someone else on internet. Funny thing is, I would actually pay him $$$ if he would tell me what really happened.
After thorough testing, I believe pipes are sound and will last at least 1000 flights. Are they bullet proof? - NO. Quite frankly, nothing is bullet proof. Aluminum pipes fail too (blowing baffles, burning thru etc.).
Regards,
Ed
07-25-2007, 09:17 PM
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RE: CF tuned pipes feedback please
Well here we go, I don't know what else I can tell him the pipes were installed in two comp arf 2x2 with two new DA50's The header length was 12in oil was sthil mixed at 40:1 I have been flying gas since 1984 and have never seized an engine, and the DA's are running fine on the KS pipes and I have changed nothing, as for warranty ED has never offered me anything but when you send two pipes back that have failed I don't feel that you should have to ASK for money. As for my story I'm sorry that I don't remember every flight that I put on a plane but both pipes failed before 20 flights, I know ED thinks I'm trying to pull something over on him but I'm not the fact is the pipes failed why I don't know so its buyer be ware. By the way I have spent many thousands of dollars with ED and I have never had a problem he might want to look that up.
Dennis
Dennis
07-25-2007, 09:31 PM
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RE: CF tuned pipes feedback please
I fly with cygnet and I was there the day when both cratered.If this is the response one gets then my mind is made up about buying them.There is too much crap coming out when someone voices a complaint about things by some people.
07-26-2007, 09:20 PM
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RE: CF tuned pipes feedback please
I also fly with dennis (cygnet) and I can verify that these pipes actually did fail as he stated. As for the temperature, If in fact they got as hot as Ed says I would think there would be some engine damage. Those pipes were properly installed in both airplanes and they were both well ventilated. Both engines are still running with different pipes (no problems). I think it is shamefull that Cygnet is out 500.00 and I can assure you that as long as this is outstanding I will never do business with CF. This hobby is expensive enough without being ripped by suppliers.
07-30-2007, 10:09 PM
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RE: CF tuned pipes feedback please
Mine didn't look anything like that they had a little light brown on them where the baffel was and that was it, those babbies look cooked to me.
07-31-2007, 08:33 PM
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RE: CF tuned pipes feedback please
Thanks for the feedback.
I ordered two MTW RE2 tuned pipes. Same weight of TD-75 canisters and same power than Ks 1060 but better midrange .
Daniel
I ordered two MTW RE2 tuned pipes. Same weight of TD-75 canisters and same power than Ks 1060 but better midrange .
Daniel
