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Quadra 52 won't run under 3500 HELP

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Quadra 52 won't run under 3500 HELP

Old 03-11-2008, 11:15 PM
  #51  
GreaTOne_65
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Default RE: Quadra 52 won't run under 3500 HELP

Good, thought, but I had plugged the tap years ago. BTW, I used the B&B smoke system on that engine, and worked very well. I wished I'd never taken it off, but the plane I was flying at the time was a little chubby for the way I wanted it to fly. What fixed the way I wanted it to fly was a PAU Edge 540! Great airplane.

Dale
Old 03-18-2008, 06:58 AM
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Default RE: Quadra 52 won't run under 3500 HELP

Update I spoke to Dick at B&B and after rebuilding the carb the engine would not start. Surprise,, that's what it was doing for me. Dick pulled it apart and found a broken ring, damaged piston and cylinder. Remember this is a new engine with little run time and probably about 10 flights. He said it appeared as if the engine had injested a foreign object. Apparently there was something in the cylinder that didn't belong there. Neither of knew when this happened, could have happened anywhere. (The engine is mounted inverter.) So now plans are to install new parts and attempt to save the cylinder then try running again. He said after repairing he would run the engine and confirm results. I will have to fork up the $$ to pay the repairs. So looking back on my ventura testing the engine ran better with smaller intake,, this is explained by lower vacuum due to the cylinder/ring damage. One previous post mentioned crankcase leaks,, that is what the damaged is, basically a compression/vacuum leak. So hopefully repairing the cylinder will return it to normal condition. I will say this engine has never started easily,, my Z38 started and ran much better than the Q52 ever did. Perhaps the cylinder damage was there in the first start up, might explain this. But in any case hopefully the Q52 will start easier than in the past.
Old 03-18-2008, 07:55 AM
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Default RE: Quadra 52 won't run under 3500 HELP

Jim hopefully that will solve your problems. Keep us posted. Thanks Rich
Old 03-18-2008, 12:02 PM
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Default RE: Quadra 52 won't run under 3500 HELP

Jim,

Seems very odd that FOD was the cause of the ring seizure and eventual catastrophic failure, especially on a brand new engine.

You said this engine was hard to start from day one and I was wondering if the ring was already too tight or frozen in place due to rust. You mentioned the engine sat for several years before you installed it and therefore there is the possibility that the rings were stored dry and froze (seized) to the cylinder.

B.T.W. what type oil were you using to break-in the engine? Just curious, it may have no bearing on the cause of the problem.

One other question. Is Dick going to replace the ring and lap the cylinder bore, or replace the cylinder? I am not that familiar with Quadras and will like to know if they have cylinder sleeves or are the cylinders integral with the crankcase.

Good luck Jim, and please keep us posted on the repair progress.
Old 03-18-2008, 02:17 PM
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Default RE: Quadra 52 won't run under 3500 HELP

ORIGINAL: AirTech

Jim,

Seems very odd that FOD was the cause of the ring seizure and eventual catastrophic failure, especially on a brand new engine.

I agree as I have been flying models for 55 years and gas/glow for 44 years. But I can't deny that FOD could / might cause it.

You said this engine was hard to start from day one and I was wondering if the ring was already too tight or frozen in place due to rust. You mentioned the engine sat for several years before you installed it and therefore there is the possibility that the rings were stored dry and froze (seized) to the cylinder.

Yes this has been a difficult engine to start and run from day 1. But it was stored in an environmentally low humidity environment. Nothing else in the same environment rusted I know of but the cylinder might have rusted. I don't really know as I did not disassemble the engine because IT WAS NEW! Had it been run more than 1 or so hrs,, I would have pulled it down myself.
B.T.W. what type oil were you using to break-in the engine? Just curious, it may have no bearing on the cause of the problem.

The breakin oil was Huskavaria chain saw premimum full synthetic oil. Ok so I don't know how to spell a Swedish chain saw.

One other question. Is Dick going to replace the ring and lap the cylinder bore, or replace the cylinder? I am not that familiar with Quadras and will like to know if they have cylinder sleeves or are the cylinders integral with the crankcase.

It will have a new piston and ring. If the cylinder can hone to clean up it will be reused otherwise it will have a new cylinder.
Good luck Jim, and please keep us posted on the repair progress.
This has been a very painful experience considering the engine cost right at $500 new and now up to $180 for repairs after only 1 hr or so run time. I will keep this in consideration on future engines. I had a similar experience with a major mfg and now I fly only Saito's which of 9 only 1 in the last 10 years has had a bearing fail. And this engine had been in water at Katrina so I really don't blame the engine. I pulled it down changed brgs. and it is back flying full force. I thought I would give gas birds a shot and the Quadra was my 2nd engine. The first was Z38 which was great until my transmitter failed,crashed and bent the crank. But it was a really good easy to start and run engine. The quadra had been difficult from the get go.

Jim
Old 03-18-2008, 11:09 PM
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Default RE: Quadra 52 won't run under 3500 HELP

Hey Jim,

If you are still interested in gas powered warbirds you may want to look at some of the new Chinese imports. They are getting to be of extremely good quality and very competitive in price. You can pick up a good powerful 50 to 60 size engine for around $400 dollars or less.

Some of these engines will outperform some $700 plus engines from Europe, Japan, and the USA. Most will come with Electronic Ignitions, mufflers and even motor mount stand-offs. Look for the likes of [link=http://www.wildharerc.com/products/engines/index.htm]3mm[/link], [link=http://www.scottellingson.com/]Brilelli[/link], [link=http://www.lsproengines.com/lspro_015.htm]LS Pro[/link], and [link=http://www.valleyviewrc.com/SPE%2026cc%20Gas%20Engine.htm]SPE[/link] (for the smaller less than 20 pounds models). The bigger ones will handle a 30 plus pound scale bird with ease and swing a 22" prop at some decent RPMs.

I used to fly glow on most of my planes but lately only use them on my small 3D profile machines only. Don't feel bad because one bad experience. Gas engines are much more inexpensive to operate and will produce a lot more power.

B.T.W. and I don't want to start another big "oil" controversy but in my experience most gas engines break in much better with a good non-synthetic oil like Lawnboy ashless, or better yet Pennzoil 2C for Air-Cooled Engines. Some friends and I have had some success with Lucas semi-synthetic Smokeless oil, but I prefer the non-synthetics because the break-in period is much shorter. After break-in any good synthetic oil is fine (i.e. Mobil 2T). Of course always mix your oil to the engine manufacturer recommended ratios. Avoid oils with weird mix ratios recommendations (i.e. Amsoil), however Amsoil is the recommended oil for DA engines. As I said the oil type probably doesn't have anything to do with you problem, this is just a suggestion. Wish you better luck with your next gasser.
Old 04-01-2008, 07:24 AM
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Default RE: Quadra 52 won't run under 3500 HELP

Latest update. I have received the engine in the mail but have not had time to test run.

The piston, and ring were replaced as well as carb rebuilt. The test run will tell all.

The removed piston was returned and the ring had about 1/2" of ring missing with score marks on the piston from the damage.

What I find unusual is why did this happen. This was a new engine I bought that had never been run. It has been problematic from the first start up. I followed instructions on breakin oil. For a engine of this price ~$500 without electonic ignition I would expected a durable engine. The information I received indicated the engine injested some foreign material, and we all know we don't use airfilters on these engines, so that is possible.

However I still question why was this engine difficult from the first start out of the box.

It was out of warranty because I bought it before Katrina and then Katrina rebuilding prevented me from getting to use the engine until the warranty expired. So I just paid the repair cost for labor and parts. Now this has become a very expensive 50CC engine.

More to come on the test run later.
Old 04-01-2008, 08:03 AM
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Default RE: Quadra 52 won't run under 3500 HELP

Jim It could have been assembled dry at the factory and due to the humidity it rusted the cylinder. It is also not uncommon to find casting material in a motor. I sure hope it runs good. Good luck Rich.
Old 04-01-2008, 09:13 AM
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Default RE: Quadra 52 won't run under 3500 HELP

Rich you are correct,, it might have been rust. Remember katrina flooded our home but the engine was high above the water line. So it is possible some rust did form in the engine during this period. So it is possible that the rust broke the ring on the first start up. Just disappointing to pay $500 for an engine then another bucket of $$ to get it running. Hopefully it will become a reliable engine now as I am part way through building a BIG HOTS 91" wing for the engine. I plan to remove the engine after test flying on the Big Bingo,, and if all is ok,, install it on the hots. I am ready to retire the Bingo and will pull the radio etc from it and try to sell the base airframe.

Jim
Old 04-01-2008, 10:21 AM
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Default RE: Quadra 52 won't run under 3500 HELP


ORIGINAL: Baldeagle

Jim It could have been assembled dry at the factory and due to the humidity it rusted the cylinder. It is also not uncommon to find casting material in a motor. I sure hope it runs good. Good luck Rich.
It is highly unlikely that rust was the problem. Most gasser engines use either chrome plated or nicasil (sp?) treated cylinders with aluminum pistons and cast iron rings. The only component there that can rust is the ring. I might suspect corrosion of the alum. parts (would be visible on the returned parts) but the only problem that would cause is a stuck ring that would result in loss of compression.

I'm betting the engine just ingested something like a small washer or other part so common around our models. Might have been in the engine all along but I find that unlikely. Face facts, most of the time if an engine eats something, it had to come in through the carb and I suspect that was the problem with this engine.
Old 04-10-2008, 01:35 PM
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Default RE: Quadra 52 won't run under 3500 HELP

Update. Today I test ran the Q52 for the first time since the new piston/ring was installed. Amazing. Not the same engine for sure. It never ran this good out of the box new. The first hit on the electric starter it was running. Almost shocked me it started so easily. Never did this before. Didn't even use the CH ignition system, just the mag. Then the idle was almost a putt putt so slow. Top end was strong using 20x10 classic series prop. Didn't have the tac with me on this run,, but the performance was nothing short of spectacular. Hopefully it will stay this way. Don't know why it didn't run this way out of the box.
Old 04-10-2008, 09:10 PM
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Default RE: Quadra 52 won't run under 3500 HELP


ORIGINAL: jimcork1

Update. Today I test ran the Q52 for the first time since the new piston/ring was installed. Amazing. Not the same engine for sure. It never ran this good out of the box new. The first hit on the electric starter it was running. Almost shocked me it started so easily. Never did this before. Didn't even use the CH ignition system, just the mag. Then the idle was almost a putt putt so slow. Top end was strong using 20x10 classic series prop. Didn't have the tac with me on this run,, but the performance was nothing short of spectacular. Hopefully it will stay this way. Don't know why it didn't run this way out of the box.
Leave it to Bill Bennet, he is the best in the country. I talked to him last week end at the Toledo show and he is absolutely convinced the cause of the problem with your engine was ingesting FOD. When it comes to Zenoahs and Quadras no one knows more than him, and I fully trust his judgment.
Old 04-10-2008, 11:21 PM
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Default RE: Quadra 52 won't run under 3500 HELP

Jim That's is good news. Rich
Old 04-20-2008, 04:35 PM
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Default RE: Quadra 52 won't run under 3500 HELP

Performance update. Wow what a difference. Choke for 10 turns throttle open, Ignition off. Then use the spring starter and most of the time it starts on the first try. NEVER before even out of the box was it this good. Idle was 1650 using 20x10 prop. Before I could only use an 18 6x10 prop. The plane flies like a home sick angel with the engine now. Too bad it didn't run this well out of the box. B&B did a nice job on the repairs.

UMMM now I have to wonder if it didn't run out of the box....
Old 06-22-2008, 04:07 PM
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Default RE: Quadra 52 won't run under 3500 HELP

FOLLOW UP.

The Q52 has been running well since rebuild. Closer examination of the piston damage discovered the pin that locks the ring is missing. I also found the damage on the ring to be in the area of the exhaust port.

My conclusion is that the retaining pin fit in the piston was loose allowing the retaining pin (which is on the top of the top ring) to pass over the top of the piston with no ring to stop it. The pin then passed to the exhaust port where it jammed against the ring and port breaking the ring and piston land. Then the excess schrapnel passed out the exhaust port. So for me this gets back to poor fit of the piston pin/piston assembly which lead to failure. Therefore material damage to the ring did occur but the retaining piston was that material.

Just my observations of course and yours may vary.

I will say thanks AirTech for the tip. I did purchase a new CCRC 50 with electronic ignition for my next project vs a Saito 2.2 due to the rapidly rising cost of fuel at the LOHS.

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