3D_Junkie

The thread has only been idle for 36hr. RC PILE IT was doing breakin on the engines which should take a couple of days.

RC Pile It

My Feedback: (6)

Another note, for those who are curious. I was told that by putting on my "Slimline Pitts muffler", that I was going to lose rpm's. Unfortunately, I bought mine used, so I don't know which model it is, but it was off of a da50r. I actually lost a little over 200 rpm, with a 22-8 prop, by going back to stock. So I calculated the volume(s), and without the "header" portion, the Pitts is still 18% larger. The shape of the square(ish)header portion made it difficult to accurately figure it's volume, but shooting from the hip, I would guess it to increase the difference to 35%+/-. So, I really like my pitts muffler now! It makes a huge difference with noise levels, as well...

All tests will be conducted with their stock mufflers/exhaust diverters. but both engines picked up a couple hundred rpm's with the pitts...(one more than the other)

RC Pile It

My Feedback: (6)

OK, so as a preliminary...

I am hesitant to perform my actual tests due to the tremendous difference between these two engines. Just in the run-ups, and break-in runs, I see a difference of approx. 17%, in Wide Open Throttle, rpm's.

To those of us that aren't Rocket Surgeons...that actually equates to over 40% difference in thrust produced(with this perticular prop). I was unaware it made that big of a difference.

So, I am really excited to get to flying...

But as far as the tests go...
I don't want to pull the carpet out from under you guys, but I don't want to throw someone under the bus, who might be experiencing a little bit of "teething" in their development either. I understand all of the combative arguements now though...

I am still running, trying to get more out of them, but the "curve" of increased rpm's vs. running time is really not much of a curve anymore. In doing manual(hand flipping) compression tests, they are both within 1psi(after 10 flips each) of each other( the lower rpm engine is actually higher compression)...

I have also tryed to eliminate any "external" variables, so I have switched carbs(back/forth), I am running both on the same tank/lines setup, as well as the same ignition. Both tune a little different from one and other, but they are both tuned for max rpm's, as well as getting the best transition from Idle to Wide Open Throttle, as I can get. I am maintaining CHT's a close to one, and other as possible as well.

I am currently running both on Stihl Ultra HP at 50:1 with 89 octane pump gas. At my altitude, I don't see the benefit in running anything more/less.

I will keep trying, but I, and my neighbors, are getting really tired of the noise!

Thanks Again >>>>>Rc-Pile-It

frieshoo

My Feedback: (20)

RC Pile It,

Post a picture of the pitts muffler. I'm looking for one that doesn't cost power. I have tried Slimline, and Bisson on my DLE... both mufflers I lost 200-400 rpms at WOT.

I wonder if it's one of the new J'Tec pitts mufflers.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

In using the Bisson muffs, did you cut off the pinched tube ends? That by itself usually regains a 100 rpm or so.

fw190

My Feedback: (37)

Does it hurt the engines if you running it 4-8 hrs?

Maybe you should just use the 2-3 gallon gas can straight to the motor instead of the tank.

fw190

My Feedback: (37)

I remember doing that on my Moki's with the Bisson mufflers, however the Bisson were 200 rpm less than Jtec (aluminum cast) Mufflers so I never used them again.

RC Pile It

My Feedback: (6)

I will try to get some pictures, but it measures 1 7/8" x 4 7/8"(main can)w/ (2) 3/4" stacks. I was told that it was the Slimline Smoke Muffler, and I just went to their website, and found part#(2123S DA 50). I assume this is the one, but I will get some pictures tonight(if I remember). Thanks

RC Pile It

My Feedback: (6)

Hey FW...

I am not running them continuously, I am alternating them, so one cools, as the other is running. This helps me to monitor their runs, as well as keeping them in the same condtions...I have been running them on a timer, so at 2500 rpm, they run for 1hour, up to 5000rpm, they run for 12 minutes(with regular interval throttle fluctuation). It has been between 40*-52* ambient so cooling has not been an issue. I thought about running the fuel line direct, but I like to be able to monitor fuel consumption as well...

Jake Ruddy

My Feedback: (40)

I am not sure on your math.. either that or you have other issues.

Lets say one engine is turning a 22x8 at 7000rpm (round numbers for arguement sake).. a 17% drop is 1190rpms so 5810rpm. 50cc engines that are working properly don't turn a prop with that low of rpms.

frieshoo

My Feedback: (20)

TOM,

I haven't tried that. A buddy said the same thing....

I don't like the side mufflers because most of the time you end up cutting a huge opening in cowl.

RC Pile It

My Feedback: (6)

I sent you a pm as well...

6200 rpm + 17% = 7254rpm.

These are really very close to the numbers that I am getting. I had gotten 6400+ with the Pitts muffler the last time I flew the one engine, and now I am only getting 6200 with the stock muffler. I havn't actually run with both mufflers one after next, so I might be a little off with the 200 rpm difference. I will conduct that test shortly to make sure I havn't mislead anyone...Sorry if I did just that!

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

You can run an engine as long as you want if you first lay the groundwork for good temperature control and effective cooling. I work in an environment where 100 and 200 hour continuous tests are routinely performed. You just need to know how to treat an engine, accurately monitor conditions, and be good at quickly swapping out big gas tanks

Kweasel

My Feedback: (29)

You should be using a prop that is better suited for break in like an old Zinger 18x12. These are the closest thing to a custom "test" prop for extended ground running. Make sure to do the final test without a muffler, open the needle and lean to peak.

RC Pile It

My Feedback: (6)

Without a muffler?

You mean with the stock "exhaust diverter"?

I don't have a 18-12, and this is not recommended by either company for break-in, so I am using a 22-8. Henry has recommended a 22-10, but at my altitude, he said 22-8 was fine...

Kweasel

My Feedback: (29)

The most important aspects of a test prop are correct engine load and maximum cooling air. The prop should be smaller in diameter and have a lot of pitch, especially at the root. The old square Zingers in 18x12 or cut down 20x12 will load the engine as much as a modern 22x8 while providing much more velocity over the cooling fins. Do your last test without any muffler installed. The needle will need to be opened slightly from where it was with a muffler. This should give the highest rpm of the test.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

I whole heartedly disagree. A prop with a known load factor, correctly sized to the engine, run at an rpm suitable for the engine to perform within it's normal rpm band, using good cooling air without over heating, breaks in an engine very well, especially if heat cycling is performed on a timed rotational basis. Doing a hundred or more break ins a month you quickly learn what works the best, and what does not. Under propping is a method used on glow fueled, non-ringed engines, intended to prevent the cylinder from becoming to hot and ruining the built in taper.

If a muffler is provided with an engine it should be used for the break in and test runs. If a manufacturer sells a product in that manner, it should be tested in the manner the manufacturer provided for. In this case the mufflers for the YD-A and the DLE are for all intents and purposes identical. However, if an engine is normally sold without a muffler, the sky'd the limit where exhaust selections are concerned. We don't fly our planes with open stacks, and open stacks on a two stroke have the opportunity to take the power quotient in either direction, depending on cylinder and port design. Mufflers and other exhaust systems can easily do the same, so using what a manufacturer provides makes a lot of sense.

RC Pile It

My Feedback: (6)

Thank You T.O.M.,
I think that I will stick to the original plan. There is some logic to his theory, but because you have thousands of hours of doing this, I believe that we will stick to "facts", rather than "theory". I do appreciate Kweasel for his input though! We all learn from input, whether we agree with it or not. Heck, the arguments are more educational! Thanks guys!

RC Pile It

My Feedback: (6)

OK, so here it is:

I am done! No matter how much I run the YD-A engine, it is not getting any better (in fact, it is getting a little bit worse). Granted, I have not gotten through the “recommended” 4-5 gallons, but better than half of that and over 4.5 hours, and in my, and other’s, opinions, Anything “hobby” shouldn’t take longer than that before it performs adequately!

The best that I can get out of the YD-A engine is 6250 rpm, using a 22-8 Xoar prop. The transition from Idle to Wide Open Throttle is a little rough, and all the tuning in the world can’t get it as smooth as I would like. It is also a little rougher (vibration wise) than the DLE, but neither are what I would consider to be really smooth running engines. This is to be expected from most single cylinder engines (I would like to say “all”’ but I have not experienced all, so I can’t say…) I was truly hoping for more, so this would be a “close” comparison, but…, well…, I guess not!

The DLE did not disappoint! I was able to get 7250, repeatedly with the same 22-8 prop. I haven’t tried different props, yet, but the main point of the test was to see how the two compared! The DLE was a little rough (vibration), but well within my personal expectations. It was extremely easy to tune, and in my opinion, it had a very nice transition off of idle.

Both engines were easy to start, they were very compatible with one another; same exhaust bolt pattern, same prop mount pattern, and the mounting is very close, however it is not identical, but a little hole wobbling, and I always use the largest fender washers that I can fit. I had to flip the DLE carb then they were both the same, so pushrods, and fuel feed are in the same place. The extension that comes with the DLE will not work on the YD-A due to interference with the case/cylinder, but it was easy to make an extension arm for the YD-A.

I believe the YD-A is still a better looking engine, but I don’t know where they got their stated “6.2” hp, as I was told that they were still” breaking theirs in while I was”, so we were all learning at the same time. The best HP numbers that I could get, using a rough calculation, is under 3hp. Now this is at my 5500’+ elevation, so at, or closer to sea level, the numbers should be higher. I did, however get over 4.5hp out of the DLE(again with a rough calculation) at my same elevation using the same prop, same ignition, same fuel/source, and same CHT’s(+/-25*) Both engines were extremely loud, so I didn’t bother with the dB meter, as anyone concerned with noise, will not be running the stock cans.

I can’t say that I didn’t (in the back of my head) suspect some difference, as that is why I bought the DLE, �cause I was struggling with the YD-A to fly my plane (Hanger9/Carden Yak, and Aeroworks Edge540 before that), so I wanted to see if it was my elevation, or possibly overstated HP numbers.

Now, as we have overly stated, these are rough numbers, and there are a bunch of “stated” discrepancies (by only one side of this), so PLEASE don’t take this as “gospel”. This is just one guy’s findings with a couple of engines…No MORE, No LESS. I am sure that most of you have gathered, by all of the “discrediting”, and earlier arguments, that these findings were going to be challenged, and I would love for someone to do just that.

I kind of regret not entering into this with full intentions of doing this comparison, however, I didn’t. I entered this by trying a “New Engine Company” that “stated 6.2 hp” out of an engine that weighed, and costs about the same as an engine with a “stated 5.5hp”(which by the way…Did make 27# of thrust at my altitude, just like they say). I also liked the “stated” all Australian made, so I wasn’t supporting the “others” any more than I had to. I later found out that there are more Asian parts then what I was told, but that is just argumentative at this point.

I am sure that a number of you have been contacted, and lead to believe that I was only doing this to get at someone. This is the furthest from the truth, but, I did send a letter to this individual, that was intended to “challenge” this person into letting me know how confident he was with his product, and if not, I wanted to promote an expedited refund. However, this request went without response, so I figured ”cool”, he believes in it, “So Should I!”. Shortly there after, he replied with a regrettable “Family Situation” that delayed his response, and that he would have just issued a refund, had I not “jumped the Gun”(4-5 days). So, ever since, I have been combating all sorts of allegations from a select few of what I would believe are “followers”. I don’t know this, but it seems strange that everyone that challenged me, or mis-quoted me to discredit my name, are all the same regular posters on the “Aerovate Engines” thread. Again, my intention was not to smear a good name, and I will continue to praise Henry for “Above & Beyond” customer support/service, as well as continuing to praise the A28, if it continues to perform well. I haven’t flown it yet, but man, it pulls like a little MULE! And runs GREAT! I have already been informed that I will not change the minds of the people that were “made aware” of my supposed “Ill Intentions”, but I want everyone to know that I have/nor had, any “Ulterior Motives”, In Fact these are the closing two paragraphs of that letter:

If the numbers are close, I will continue to fly the YD-A, and continue
to document, and post my findings to show everyone that yours is the
"stuff", and will keep "our differences" to myself, but if your story is
just that(a story to sell something), then I will come unglued for dragging
me through this based on "stories", and I wont be very shy about it! Again,
this is only if I find that I was brutally lied to(and I will be fair, and
give you the opportunity to defend yourself before I would take actions( I
hate regrets)).
I hope that we can work this out "constructively", that is my wish. I
will always stand behind you when it comes to customer satisfaction either way!
I believe that you are the "best" at taking care of problems, I just don't want so
many "problems"(*smiling*)

So, I wish that I had better results to share with you all, and I apologize for all the “hype”, with such an anticlimactic ending. I was really excited, and every day that I checked this thread, your support really “fueled” my interest in this, but it didn’t take long for “some” to de-fuel, and thoroughly discredit the whole thing! I said it then, and will continue to feel (until someone can convince me otherwise), that all of that was intentional based on a preconceived outcome, which really disappoints me! I understand….but I am disappointed either way…..

DaddySam

My Feedback: (9)

Those numbers for the DLE 55 are almost the same as I got this summer with a Xoar 22-8, running the stock muffler (between 7200 and 7400). So I would call your numbers for the DLE right on. I am a satisfied customer of both Valleyview and Aerovate, and consider myself unbiased. I kinda wonder what the results would be with their 50cc engine... I had one until I crashed the plane and it was very powerful, although it was probably 400 rpm less than the DLE 55. Neither engine was broken in at that time, and the Aerovate 50 was running through a header and cannister muffler. Thanks for all your work on this project.
Sam

Checklst

I'm supprised.......... the numbers are that far apart...............I sure hope some of the guys with YD-a 50 engines chime in with their prop pitch vers rpm numbers. Maybe you just got a bad one.....can't base, I repeat.......... I can't base my oppinion on and engine, based on one engines figures.

I have always watched these forms for months to get a general feel of an engine numbers before I put the engine on my short list. I have watched the DL 50 and 55 thread for 2 years and know your numbers are close to what everyone else gets. I have seen a few posts of the DL 50 that had some lower performance figure for some unknown reason, but not 2 many, but thay get a low performer every once in a while.

I would hope to hear from YD-A 56 owners as to the real world numbers they are getting...........I like real world data. Thanks for the effort it was a good thread no matter how it came out. I'm sure you get some heat from some though.

Good luck

Checklst

Opps forgot to add in all my years of performance engine building...........the first thing I would look at if the engine were sent to me is, (the timing) well thats usually the place I find most of my missing performance on a dyno run !!!!

RC Pile It

My Feedback: (6)

Hey Check,
I suspected the same, but I actually had two of these (the first had some non-critical problems, but was the same with power(or lack there of). I was told that it needed "breaking-in", but this didn't help the second one either...

FoamRanger

My Feedback: (1)

Wow... I didn't think the difference would be that far apart. I am looking to get into the 50cc world. Have the plane, but no engine yet. I have been leaning towards the DLE, but I wanted to explore the options. Thanks for the great thread and test info.

MetallicaJunkie

wow im impressed with the results,,,,i thought for sure the DLE was gonna lose on peak rpm.....i was mistaken.....like i said earlier, DL Engines have proven themselves to be the "top of the line" made in China engines