ssgrumman

Well, its looks like this. Second flight in the air and the engine locked up due to a ring failure. Factory settings--mmmmmmmm----has anyone had this happen??????

mglavin

My Feedback: (31)

Are suggesting that the engine seized? If so your engine is tuned lean and needs some attention. Of cource the appropriate oil mixture is paramount.

Factory settings are only a baseline you have to adjust your engine for your climate and altitude. It's highly unlikely the factory setting will work for every local.

Antique

My Feedback: (4)

AMEN....There's some kind of mystique about factory settings..Carbs are made to be adjusted, should always be set slightly rich BEFORE the first flight...
Did the ring break ?It's possible, but VERY unlikely...New rings don't just fail, there has to be a reason...If the piston was on the rod backwards the gap in the ring would be on the exhaust side and could get caught in the port...Take the cylinder off, there is an arrow on top of the piston..It
ALWAYS faces the exhaust port....If not you will probably need a new piston and cylinder...Better check both sides...Maybe you got a Monday morning or Friday afternoon engine

Aero330LX

My Feedback: (-1)

The ring could've been broke before it ever got to your doorstep. It could've been broke when they put the jug on. This leaves the question question open about whether they even test ran it. Contrary to popular belief they do have QC issues at 3w. I won't get into particulars but there have been alot of failures with these engines lately, and while i won't put my freinds that fly these on the spot i just wanted to mention that it is happening, and it is not a rare occurance. One of the biggest kept secrets are the 200's...they are breaking cranks right and left...can't get 20 flights on one. A freind has had to sell a big 200 size plane because he went through 3 of them and had to get something else just so he could fly. A second flight should not lock up an engine because of the ring. That's why i suspect it was broke before it was ever run. I doubt very seriously the engine was lean. I have never seen any engine that didn't come from the factory so rich that they would be blubbering at any altitude. If it wasn't set this way, the factory *should* have. I'm sure that somebody that has the ability to fly a large plane with a 1300 dollar engine probably has the ability to know when it is too lean. If the engine was put together on a Monday morning they could've simply snapped the ring not being careful enough when sliding the jug over it. Like RCIGN said it's very possible they could've put the piston on backwards...if you're in a hurry that is not hard to do...of course if your in a hurry building a model engine is not a good idea! hehe I think that'll be one for the warranty...I just hope you got it from AI.

Diablo-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

Did you remove the cylinder to have a look inside?
It's difficult to diagnose the cause without having a careful look.
If it's under warranty, I'd send it in without taking it apart.
If not under warranty, I'd take it apart.
A broken ring by itself is a cheap fix.
If a bolt was ingested down the carb and caused the ring to break, well it's going to be big money.

SuperModified

It seems funny that I keep hearing about the 3-W 200's blowing up right and left. I have one of the first ones with 50 flights on it, and it has'nt blown up. Strange. The only thing it does is make tons of power and burn a lot of fuel. Never had a quality control issue with 3-W, and I own 10 of them. I did have a stuck ring issue on a 100 due to using the wrong oil, replaced the ring and switched to 3-W oil, problem solved.

Antique

My Feedback: (4)

Only crank failures on 3W engines I have seen were the result of crashes, the small 8mm threaded end on the crank is so brittle it breaks off when the prop hits hard enough to bend or break the smooth stud that holds the hub on... One of the 150s hit so hard it bent the tapered part of the hub almost 1/8" oval at the bottom..Another hit hard enough top break the crank inside the front bearing..NO engine will withstand that kind of crash.....We had a Herbrandson 289 crank come right out of the front bearing..It broke right where the shaft connects to the web...Took the spinner and prop clean out of the engine...That crank is about 7/8" diameter...Nothing is unbreakable....
It's possible to fix an otherwise good crank if the only problem is a broken off threaded end..The crank can be drilled and tapped for a 3/8-24 grade 8 stud...Works well..Been there.....Some cranks are made that way, Zenoah G23 and G26, Horner Twin, K&B glow motors, Herbrandson 289 drone engines, any twin that uses an Echo crank, and others.It's actually is a better way, you can just replace the stud instead of the whole crank....

Aero330LX

My Feedback: (-1)

The 3 200's that I spoke of in my earlier posts were definately not the result of any crash believe me...the guy flying that plane does not crash airplanes. Each engine lasted about 20 flights and the crank snapped right in between the front two bearings. Made a cool sound coming down, but that's not a sound I think I'd like to hear at a meet I drove all the way to. Speaking of QC issues, I'm, glad this came up again because a freind of mine that just got his motor back from being rebuilt. He brought it out to the field engine running rich, sounded real nice, then all the sudden in the air it wouldn't take the throttle and shot up to a high idle that could not be brought back down without killing the motor. He tried to bring it back once and it dang near died right at mid-field...started working the throttle and got it back brought it down for a fast landing, and throttled back and engine just quit...not normal but sounded like you just cut the IGN. The plane went off the end of the runway and broke the gear plate out. Scratch a contest for my caller. Now he has an $400 repair bill, an engine that doesn't run, and a torn up airplane to add to the above figure. In our club we have a bunch of flyers that are highly competitive in IMAC, there were 4 that were running 3w's, but there has been nothing but trouble out of them all. We now have 1 flyer that is running them, and so far he is the only one having any luck at all running them. One of the two engine he has is pretty trustworthy...the other, a brand new one, he says he doesn't like the way it is acting. None of these guys are beginners, and most of them win regularly and they are Intermediate and above level pilots. Most have years of pattern experience as well. These problems are issues that popup unexpectedly in the air...not prop strikes, or crashes, or anything that isn't set properly...they are sudden catastrophic failures that are happening over and over again. The one pilot I told you about had 3...that's t-h-r-e-e 200's twist cranks into and they all broke exactly the same. No abuse, no lomcevaks, or craziness, just smooth precision flying and BANG!!! ....then the infamous "turbo-prop sound" of a windmilling prop going around. I know everything breaks, but you have to be for real...when three of anything breaks in a row all with less than 20 flights on each engine, there's a serious problem. I've seen so many different kind of weird things happening with these engines it's unreal. IGN's going south (yes the new ones even), engines running on one cylinder, engine backfiring hard enough to blow the pipes off (sounded like a gun shot on that one!), cranks breaking, case leaks causing engines to run lean (not gaskets either...case leaks as in bad castings), engines that run hot (set rich and still run 240-250 degrees), engines that were hard to start and never seemed to run right no matter how they were set, engines that shook(that used to be unheard of with a 3w motor), engines that had a blurb that couldn't be gotten rid of, bad hubs (runout out of spec), and an engine that flat out refused to run no matter what was done to it...that's just this season...last season was worse because more were using them then. Like I said, I don't know what has changed, but these things just aren't reliable like they used to be. I had an 80 and I know what 3w reliable is, and what is going on now ain't it. It just seems like here lately there have been more prolems more frequently then there used to be. All the above is just in a couple of clubs in one season that ain't over yet...imaging how many problems are going on around the country... Forewarned is forearmed when you get into the realm of money these engines cost. Heck, you can buy a long block V-8 for what these motors cost...they shouldn't be doing this stuff.

Diablo-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

I've got 2 of the older 3W-100 motors, one is a TOC model.
They've been very reliable. The only mods were a set of DA ignition caps, original 3W ignition, and the carbon fiber intake tube. I put in a new set of pistons and rings in one of them because a ring was stuck with carbon. That motor has over 600 flights (by me) and 2 previous owners. The crankpins and bearings show no signs of wear.

ssgrumman

Well, I ran it lean. In Mississippi, 100% humity and a heat index of 102 degrees had a lot to do with it. It is now fixed and thanks for the input,,

PlaneInsane

My Feedback: (5)

3W's do break cranks. My OldStyle 150 broke one after 275 gallons of fuel. No warnings, nothin. My friends 200 broke one, er should I say exploded after 5 gallons of fuel. And this latest one on a 5 gallon 106QS. BTW, this motor was the 3rd QS in the plane. First one blew a rod bearing, second seized, and now this one. He has a brand new unrun 4th one that he is going to sell. Gee, I wonder why.

PlaneInsane

My Feedback: (5)

Here's the 200

Aero330LX

My Feedback: (-1)

Now...Any questions?!?

BBW Walt

My Feedback: (11)

Hey PlaneInsane: Did 3W offer any reason for the crank failure? I looked at the photo and noticed a lot of discoloration at the fracture point. Looks blued from heat..Like "0" lubrication or possibly a clearance problem..Kinda curious as to why all these 200s have this crank breakage thing going on..

PlaneInsane

My Feedback: (5)

Aircraft International never explained either incident. All engines were bought from them.

Had either of these engines been made by BME or DA there would have been no hassles whatsoever, AND, the reason for breakage would have been divulged. I was a BME dealer at one time so I can attest for sure for Keith. I've dealt with Dave on many occasions and have seen first hand how he handles these type of situations.

Still griped about the $400 repair bill on engine number two 106QS. This was a brand new motor. It was deemed user fault because the mufflers were transferred from blown engine number one to number two without cleaning them.

I've been a tried and true 3W supporter but with this kind of treatment I will never use them again. These are the best of the best of 3W supposedly and cost a whole lot of money. WAY MORE than a glorified weed eater motor is worth. And to be treated the way 3W treats its customers is unacceptable and WRONG.

BBW Walt

My Feedback: (11)

I am currently flying a QS-106 which has caused my interest. I have a dozen flights on this motor which so far has been a monster for power. Aircraft International has always been in the top shelf catagory for customer service also. This really sounds bad, kinda like the western guy treatment..Good luck!

PlaneInsane

My Feedback: (5)

Aircraft International will only do the very minimum it is required to do under warranty. If there is ANY way they can wiggle out of the warranty they will.

All that had to be said to AI regarding the tranferred mufflers was "of course I cleaned them". But since that wasn't said, this gave AI a way to disregard the warranty all together. If that is top shelf customer service then I want no part of it.

I watched a competitor with a DA150 (a friend btw), who's 150 gobbled up a part of his smoke system destroying a piston. Dave Johnson was at the field that day and after Saturday's competition they pulled the engine out, replaced the piston, test ran it for the incredible cost of "no charge". Now THAT IS top shelf customer service.

My BME102 Evo broke a front hub. I emailed Keith and he mailed me a new hub for "no charge". I didn't expect it, but it was extremely nice of him. Top shelf customer service.

BBW Walt

My Feedback: (11)

Well excuse me!!

rmh

I guess I don't get out much --but the only engine I ever saw which blew up (gasoline engine-not glow) was simply too hot/lean.
I saw a case simply split in half once on a 150 ---no heat problem -just a bad casting - -very rare.
The more engines I see --the more cases I see where the owner thinks/ hopes, a bit lean won't/cain't hurt nuthin -
I don't envy the engine guys who have to evaluate and explain that these toys need some thought given to setting them up not to get overheated.

Diablo-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

Walt spotted the trouble on that blown crank. It's blue from heat where it fractured. I'll bet the bearing locked up first and the crank was spinning in the race. I won't speculate why because there is no way to know without a closer examination.

rmh

a bearing locked up-- .
why - typically from overheating .
once in a blue moon from a piece of junk which destroys the cage-
but the front bearing - how does junk get there?

Diablo-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

Could just be a bad bearing, or the crank to bearing fit was too tight. Or the crank to bearing fit may have been too loose so the crank spun in the bearing inner race. Or could have been a lubrication failure or a piece of stray metal got in there.

PlaneInsane

My Feedback: (5)

You can see by the photo that the heat came from the middle bearing. But since Dick is of the assumption that the end user is ill informed as to how to tune and know when a gasser is running lean, we must also assume that the end user was to blame.

Only thing is...this engine was replaced.

Now the second crank break...hmmm..no bluing whatsoever. Have more photos if you need em.

Look, I myself am a Unlimited Imac flyer and know how to tune gassers. Pretty basic stuff. Yes, I know that some people don't know how, but by the time they've bought 100's and 150's they know how to tune.

blkbird68

My Feedback: (19)

I have no experience myself with 3W engines, but I do know a guy that has several and he had heating and crank breakage problems until he stop using Klotz oil....he changed oils and hasn't had any problems since. I don't know and do not intend to imply that this has anything to do with planeinsane's problem, but I am curious as to what oil and mix you are using.

PlaneInsane

My Feedback: (5)

Engines were broke in on Lawn Boy...not that they ever made the break in point. Now as we know, most if not ALL manufactures are recommending this stuff for breakin or run in, whatever you want to call it.