apalsson

My Feedback: (1)

I realise this is somewhat of a subjective issue and likely to get the brand loyalists out but it's not my intention at all to cause a debate.

The thing is I'm in the process of putting together a 97" A6M-5 Zero and the recommended engine for it is 85cc
The plane is likely to weigh anywhere from 30 - 32lbs so I guess a G62 or equivalent is out of the question.
The cowl limits me to a singe cylinder engine and the only commonly available engines in this size class in Australia are 3W and DA

Because I have no personal experience with either brand, I'm after a bit of comparison between the two. I would appreciate very much comments from people who actually own either (or both) of those engines.

What I want to achieve is:

Good mid-range torque. I'm not interested in top RPMs (this is a scale warbird)
Smooth running (I have seen references to the DA85 being a vibrator). I have seen a build thread on another Zero where the builder had to reinforce the plane with Hysol because of vibrations from the DA
Able to swing a large prop - I want to use a large 3-blade prop. Possibly as big as 24"
Availability of mufflers. - A Pitts type muffler will probably be my best bet

I'd very much appreciate suggestions / feedback / comments on the two engines listed above in terms of my goals for the plane.
Also - are there other brands out there that might achieve the same? (MT80 comes to mind)

Thanks in advance

pauldo

I have done similar research, and although the DA 85 seems to have a lot of power, all have indicated that it shakes planes to pieces, and a lot of airframe reenforcement is needed. From what I have read, the MVVS 80 (Evolution 80 - same engine) is possibly the smoothest running engine. It has 4 bearings on the crankshaft which helps in the viabration dept. It also has heaps of power. I have bought one for a H9 Sukhoi, but have not run it yet. MVVS engines also tend to have longer stroke to bore ratios than other petrol engins, which assist in providing torque, so this may be an option. It is 200 to 300 grams heavier than the DA 85, but this is no problem at this size, especially in a warbird, where you will probably need the nose weight. Your Supplier in the USA would be Horrizon (Branded Evolution 80)

apalsson

My Feedback: (1)

Hi Paul,

I hadn't thought about the MVVS80. A bit of extra weight should not be a problem because the Zero has a short nose so a bit of upfront weight will be needed.
A lot of guys fly the 93" version of the same plane on a G62 but I don't think it will have the power I need for the 97"

Problem is that Horizon don't ship overseas (as far as I know). I might look around with Horizon dealers in Australia to see what they have

pe reivers

The MVVS80 is as smooth as the 58cc engine. When I was testing it I soon forgot it had 80cc, except for the prop size.

wingburner

My Feedback: (17)

Get a hold of Pe Reivers and get an MVVS 80.I believe he ships anywhere. You won't be sorry, mine has been an excellent engine. Very smooth.

http://mvvs.nl/

Ih82crash

I had a 3W85xi and My friend had a DA 85 here is what we found out. We both were flew TT-TOC 33% Yaks swinging a Vess 26a. The DA would turn about 200 more RPM's. The 3W was smoother and had a more reliable idle. Neither plane was lacking power. I personally would prefer the 3w over the DA because of the vibration.

Either plane would easily swing a 24" three blade prop. My friend has a 3w 80 twin and he is turning a 24" 3 blade at about 5300

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Based on your desired criteria, you have a choice of the MVVS or the 3w. Both provide more torque than the DA, and do so at useful rpm levels. The 3w is quite robust, while the induction design of the MVVS is superior to anything else available. Can't say I like the MVVS auto choke ignition design, but that's offset by the lack of consistent reliability with 3w ignitions.

pe reivers

You do not have to use the autochoke. I never did and use the ignition out of the box as plug and play unit. It is super reliable and uses it's battery capacity very sparingly. Recommended minimum battery capacity is a mere 650 mAh.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

With that, the decision becomes a little easier.

apalsson

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks to all of you who have commented and helped me narrow down the search.

It's interesting that you never see much posted about either MVVS or 3W engines. I guess that is a good thing and means there isn't much "bad news" to report.
You can probably expect vibration from an 80cc or 85cc single cylinder engine to be higher than a typical 50cc but I don't think I'd want to mount some of what I have seen out there in any plane.

I did a quick check of the measurements of both engines and the cowl and it looks like either one will fit just fine without really any cutting.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Both the 3w and the MVVS are excellent engines, in numerous sizes. The reason you hear so little about them is due to what I like to call "carpet" advertising. One or two manufacturers get all the market exposure because they either spend A LOT more dollars on advertising or they get more internet exposure because they were less expensive, permitting more people to buy them. The down side is that does not mean either is the best engine, just talked about more. Quite often the better products don't get any exposure at all. Over the years we've lost some great manufacturers to that phenomena.

In this case, my perception is both the MVVS and the 3w are stronger engines. Both have more mass than a DA but I feel both the 3w and MVVS also run smoother.

apalsson

My Feedback: (1)

Is it my correct understanding that MVVS80 IRS and Evolution 80 are the exact same engine?
Horizon don't ship overseas - maybe there are dealers in the US who do?

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

They are the same, and you're right about Horizon. Their lack of regard for overseas customer purchases is something that really ticked me off a couple years back. Forced me to deal with Tower.

apalsson

My Feedback: (1)

Funny business strategy, if you ask me.
They refer you to their local dealers - in the case of Evolution Engines, none of them carry the Evolution brand except one who seems to take Horizon's RRP and mark it up by 40% as their price.
This day and age of online retail and competition, me thinks not!

pe reivers

Wrong way around folks.
Horizon sells MVVS engines, assembled by Horizon under the Evolution brand. They are limited to the USA, but i see many engines sold in Europe as well through their Europe branches. Funny their customers come to me for support???? (sorry, could not resist)
MVVS sells worldwide, using their own network of dealers of which I proudly am one. They came a long way and now are benchmark for the competition, not by sales numbers, but by bang for the buck, customer support  and quality control. They qualified for ISO 9000 quality systems, 'nuff said.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

ISO 9000 says it all. Not many model product manufacturers that meet that level of quality and consistency.

I tried ordering stuff from Horizon several times while I was in Iraq. You could not even list an APO/FPO address in the address line of their online order form at the time. When I inquired about the situation I was informed that I would first have to provide them a letter certifying payment regardless of being received or not received after they shipped. I was told they would provide me with a form letter they had for that purpose, which was never provided. That was the beginning of the end for most Horizon stuff for me. The constant change in their radio product line pretty much finished it. No stability but a constant introduction of new products that superceded the previous product.

apalsson

My Feedback: (1)

G'day Pe,

As per our correspondence last week, I have been e-mailing you since Saturday re buying one of those engines .... maybe you aren't getting my e-mails?

pe reivers

Saturday is week-end. I go out to the field and fly when the weather is good. Life is too short to pass that all up.

apalsson

My Feedback: (1)

Good point !

apalsson

My Feedback: (1)

Hi Pe,

I think we have a plan here!
I cannot find a negative word on these engines anywhere. [sm=thumbup.gif]

I noticed MVVS seem to recommend a 3s LiPo battery for the ignition?
Is this correct?

What is your recommended setup?

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Jusat wait until you see the porting in the 58[sm=thumbs_up.gif] Better still, have Steve take a look.

pe reivers

MVVS uses three ignitions.
ICU-L (light version, 2S Lipo, no autochoke)
ICU-S (standard, 2S LiPo, autochoke feature)
ICU-P (pro version, 3S Lipo for even stronger spark, autochoke, extra programming, internal memory banks, extra advance curves)

The engines now coming in have side plug and ICU-S ignition.
Setup? Room permitting a MTW RE3 tuned pipe, or canisters. The MVVS canister has a very neat new flexible coupler design. In cowl there is sidewinder and Pitts mufflers.
I plan to use the 80cc engine in my new design tow plane (much modified ugly stick), using the MVVS canister/header combo for best muffling and flat torque curve. To that end, I designed the plane with exhaust tunnel.

apalsson

My Feedback: (1)

Unfortunately, I don't have an easy way for a pipe or canisters.
This engine will go into a scale Zero so an inverted Pitts muffler is really the only way I can go.

I realise that noise levels will be higher but fortunately, the noise police is nowhere near as advanced here in Australia as they are in Europe (yet)

I guess I will be using a 2s LiPo or A123 for the ignition?

STUKA BARRY

[quote]ORIGINAL: apalsson


Unfortunately, I don't have an easy way for a pipe or canisters.
This engine will go into a scale Zero so an inverted Pitts muffler is really the only way I can go.

I realise that noise levels will be higher but fortunately, the noise police is nowhere near as advanced here in Australia as they are in Europe (yet)

I guess I will be using a 2s LiPo or A123 for the ignition?
[/quote Most warbirds require nose weight for balance. What better way to balance than usable nose weight. My suggestion would be the Zenoah GT-80 twin. It will fit in the Zero cowl, extremely smooth being a twin, cheaper than DA or 3W, extremely reliable magneto ignition which means NO battery to mess with at all. Sounds like a win win situation to me. My 2 1/2 cents

apalsson

My Feedback: (1)

Hey Barry,

The GT80 won't fit this cowl and Australian prices for Zenoah are also outrageous, especially given what you get.
Common parts are often 3 - 6 months wait so I might pass on that altogether.

Probably the great Horizon business model at work