First fuel engine - what do I need?
 

I've been flying electric for several years now, but moving into GS warbirds I've decided that gas is more practical. My first engine is enroute: a Zenoah G62. It's going in a 1/5 scale Wildcat.

I've scoured the sticky for gas newbies; lots of good info, but still lacking a critical piece of the puzzle: what do I *need* to run this thing?

What I know:

- Engine
- Fuel tank
- Gas compatible tubing
- Filtered clunk
- tank vent if I use a 3-line setup
- static air vent for the carb?
- Throttle servo
- Ignition battery (size?)

What am I missing?

The first thing you woll need is a mount. I take a piece of 2x4 about 3 ft long and nail a 4in sq piece of 1/2in plywood to one end and mount it to the plywood. Then I bolt the 2x4 to a bench. Dont try to use clamps,
Make sure the stopper in your tank is compatible with gas.
now all you need is a strong arm. If the G62 is magneto pay close attention to the instructions on how to mount the prop,
A glove will be handy

Oh yeah - I did know about the stopper. Thanks for reminding me!

So sounds like you're talking about a "test stand" for breaking in the engine. That is good info, but I'm wondering about what else I need inside the plane - if anything.

I could be out of luck with the "strong arm". may have to hit the gym ;) Not enamoured of the idea of hand-propping. I know how my luck goes! Any problems using a chicken stick?

I don't think a chicken stick will do it.You are out of the toy class.
You can get a spring that you install on the back. Then you wind the prop backwards one turn and let it go.
Actually I use a Miller Persuader and 24V on the starter. I can start a small Honda with that.

Ah hah! Okay, good to know. That also explains how the spring starter works.

Its always the details that get ya!

If you need a Ignition battery then your G-62 is not a magneto engine so it must have a Electronic Ign. This should hand start .Get someone in your club that has experience with gas engines to help you at first.
Ign battery depends on how old the unit is. Older igns required 4.8 to 6 volts newer ones will work 4.8 to 8 volts. I like the Life battery for Igns.6.6 volts.You will need a good two stroke oil.Stihl or Redline are two popular oils. I use the oil I am going to fly with from day one.Hope I don't start a oil thread.Use engine instructions for oil and gas mix. I use 32 to 1 for everything. They may not use that much oil. What prop do you have for your g-62.? Did you buy the engine new ?.
If you are in a club that has a few gas engine fliers,pick the flier that flies time after time and does not have to screw with his engine. See If he will help you.This is a pretty big engine for your first gasser. Good Luck
BCCHI

It's second hand, only partially broken in. He advertised it as a G62, so I assume its a magneto unit. Hasn't arrived here yet so I can't confirm. In retrospect I wish I'd researched better. I'd much prefer the ZP62 with the electronic ignition, if only for the ease of setting up a remote kill switch.

So magneto ignitions don't require a battery? I feel like I should know that from my full-size days. I guess that also explains why a regular remote kill doesn't work.

I've been using LiFe batteries in my electrics for receiver & servo power. I am a fan :)

Prop: starting with what the manual recommends, 22x10. May play a little once it's broken in & I have some level of comfort.

Thanks for the info about oil. Been wondering about that & spark plugs. The manual, like all manuals, says to use only genuine Zenoah parts. From my searching, finding actual Zenoah plugs is like finding a needle in a hay stack!

Once flying season gets here I'll have some buddies that already fly gas that I can get help from. We're spread over quite a wide area though, so we don't see much of each other over the winter.

I don't think Zenoah makes sparkplugs. Go to an auto parts store and get a plug that fits the hole and has an R in its number.
And,as Bcchi says,find someone with experience to help you.

DO NOT run a Champion spark plug!! I have had them seize in the head, ruining the threads requiring a hell coil type repair. I have also had the ceramic insulator break, ruining the piston & cylinder. I would recommend a NGK, I use CMR7H. If you run a hard tank, it must be vented. The Walbro (& other) carbs on our gassers have a fuel pump, so you can run a bladder style fuel system with no venting needed. Believe it or not, a Baxter IV bag is an excellent fuel cell. Single tygon line with a T fitting for refueling, although you will need to reverse your fuel pump to eliminate air. Fill nearly full, reverse to remove air, then fill completely. The bags will harden over time, & need replacing so acessability is a consideration. I get about a season out of a bag, with regular use. Sitting unused seems to harden them sooner. If not being used regularly/ say, weekly - purge any air often - air in the bag will harden them sooner than solid fuel. VERY common fuel system on RC gas boats, check out Jim's RC Boat Dock (JRCBD) or Model Gas Boats for examples & Gizmo Motors or Zippkits for supplies. Inexpensive, simple & solid fuel with no clunk to set up. A flat plywood tray where the tank sits with a couple cup hooks for rubber bands to hold the bag in place, & some thin foam sheet to eliminate chafing. I would also recommend using an oil spec'd for air cooled engines. TCW3 oils for water cooled engines are designed for lower temps & will not perform well, resulting in possible engine damage or failure.

You really should put anti-seize compound on any plug you use in an aluminum head.
Why would you advise a beginner to fool with a baggie?

seek out the flyers that are already running gas at the field where you fly.

Been using NGK plugs in air & water cooled aluminum heads for over 30 years, NEVER had one seize. Anti seize is not a bad suggestion, just not necessary with a NGK IMO. A "baggie" is simpler to set up than a hard tank. One single fuel line, no clunk, no air possible in line, no vent with the potential to leak during maneuvers, no odor in the trailer or house from the open vent & no need to plug anything to prevent odors, no need to drain for the same reason. Being a beginner, the OP has to learn something, anything......a "baggie" is just one more piece of info for him to learn about, even if he chooses not to use it.....I've been playing with nitro models of all sorts since about 1959, gas since 2004. I have set up MANY nitro & gas fuel systems. For gas, a "baggie" as you call it is much simpler & more reliable - for me. Not saying it's the best for everybody, not saying anyone HAS to use one, just one more option. Just saying there are different ways to set up a fuel system - " If you do what you always did, you'll get what you always got." That is why I would suggest it to anyone, not just a beginner. Dirtybird, if you want to turn this into a "your idea sux, my idea is best" thread, then you defeat the purpose of any forum - which should be an open minded exchange of information. I hope I have answered your questions intelligently, without offending you. I did not take offense to your question about a "baggie", although it struck me as somewhat antagonistic. I will apologize in advance if I misinterpreted your intent.

I remember back in the late '40s using a balloon for a tank. You had to have a hatch so you could get at it and get the air out of it. Then if it broke you had fuel all over everything. If you crashed you would get fuel on a hot engine and likely have a fire. In the early 60's a lot of p[eople used a plastic bag. Same problems. Then when the clunk tank came out it was much better. You could put your tank in and forget it.
I don't think I have ran across anyone using a baggie in the last 40 years.There must be some reason for that

Old technology, dirtybird. Baxter IV bags are thicker & tougher than balloons, baby bottle liners or plastic bags. There are also thick vinyl (?) fuel cells made specifically for our use. I also use them in my gas rc race boats. Slamming & bouncing at 60 - 70+ mph on water with 5 other 4' boats creates a rough ride. We race regardless of the water conditions, whitecaps included. 4 to 5 six lap heats a weekend, maybe 7 races a season, plus 8 to 10 test & tune weekends added to that. One hull races in 2 classes, so double those numbers. Never had a "baggie" break, maybe only seen 2 in 11 years of racing with average 100 boats at any given race, some 250 boats or more. You do not have to access the bag to remove air. Set up properly, fill part way with the inlet up, reverse pump to purge air, when you get solid fuel with no bubbles, switch rotation to finish filling. Bag collapses as fuel is used, no air ever, even with a partial fill. No clunk, inlet fitting is inserted into bag slightly past flush, tie wrapped, done. Only requirement is to have a view of the bag to watch for air being purged & bag being full. On most sport flyers, looking in through a cockpit window should work. On a nice scale plane, a small hatch might be needed for visibility. As most full scale planes have maintainence access hatches, you could make that detail a real access panel. Go to the sites I mentioned earlier & see what's available today. It's not your father's Buick:rolleyes:. Trust me, if they weren't durable, I wouldn't be using them in competition where points & my results for weekend were on the line. I travel 200 to 300 miles one way, 2 nights motel bill, 3 days eating out, 6 to 8 times a year, sometimes farther & more days for Nat'l events. Finished 2nd in Open Offshore last year at the IMPBA Gas Nat's in Rochester, Ny, so this ain't my first rodeo. Too much $ invested to rely on unproven (or outdated) technology.

"Bags" may have their place, but for our purposes here, I have to believe the clunk tank set up serves the majority of us just fine. It's all I've ever flown with since graduating from U-control, and I've never had any issues that weren't my fault. My thought anyway. -Al

This is the best advice, not matter how much foamie time or sim time you have; a wooden giant scale gasser is going to be way different, especially the wing loading, you won't be able to just float this in to land. Seek out your local jedi masters at your flying field young padawan, they can help you with your line routing, tank setup, engine tuning and of course maiden your plane.

I don't know of anyone who started out on foamie electrics who jumped straight to giant scale gas warbirds and maidened, let only succeeded on their own.

As the other guys said, I would definitely get help from experienced guys at the club. I got my first gas engine about 4 years ago after a few years on glow engines. But I still get intimidated by the G62 that some other guys have. It is a beast, so definitely get expert help. I heard from others that there is a way to remotely switch off the magneto from your radio with some kind of relay. But I don't know if there is an off the shelf product for it?:confused: I would seriously consider getting one setup though.

On the Magneto equipped G62 there is a pin on the magneto that you connect to any part of the engine that will; ground out the magneto and stop the engine from running. So all you have to do is set up a switch controlled by your receiver to stop it.
moparbarn

Thanks again, guys. Interesting info about the bladder tanks. Makes me think of the self-sealing tanks often used on full size warbirds.

most of my flying in the past couple of years has been balsa planes, .40 to .60 size electric. Some foam thrown in, but I quickly found balsa flies better :)

Got the engine yesterday, it is definitely magneto. Now that I've actually looked it over, the mechanics of the whole thing don't seem so daunting. May get an RCExcl electronic conversion kit; gonna do some more research before deciding though.

All, I agree that hard/clunk style tanks have been a reliable standard in virtually all model fuel systems for ages. Plus, they are way more familiar to most everybody involved in rc fuel vehicles. Those FACTS do give them an advantage in parts commonality, availability & do make it easier for a beginner to get setup/build help. I use them in ALL my nitro models. Just offering an option for folks to look at/learn & maybe even consider. I was VERY sceptical when first exposed to them, now there all I used in my gasoline powered models - air, land or water.

No, I don't sell any hobby supplies, just a modeler/hobbiest. See my reply to Al, I have no issue with hard/clunk tanks. Dirtybird, have you even taken a few minutes of your time to look at the sites I posted & seen what I am describing, or are you basing your opinions on dated technology? Your resistance to even research an idea is what confuses & amazes me about all hobbies. If it's not the way that is commonly accepted, it must be crap. Fuel bag systems are absolutely not for everyone, or every model - never even implied that. Open your mind, explore outside your normal procedures, you might actually learn something - whether you agree or use it is not the point - learning is!! My purpose is not to hold a gun to anyone's head to force an idea upon them, but to offer info that may be beneficial to the ones that want to learn. The others can stay stuck with "that's the way I was taught". Key words are taught & learn, just because you learned something doesn't mean you HAVE to agree or actually try it. I'm 64 years old & yes, this old dog can learn new tricks - but not if I'm not WILLING to learn............It doesn't cost a penny to learn, just time. A closed mind is a closed door, through which nothing can pass. And that is both a waste & a shame, IMHO. Last post on this subject, as you obviously REFUSE to even crack the door to your mind open, if only just a little. If one refuses to learn, one can never progress. To teach, you must also be willing to learn!

I use to use bladder tanks in pylon racers and that has been considered the "norm" for quite a few years now. In this case, they use a flexible bladder inside a rigid plastic tank housing (looks just like a normal tank) that provides support and protection for the internal bladder. It takes a bit of getting use to filling them but it soon becomes just another way to reliably supply bubble free fuel to an engine.

With all that said, I still prefer a normal tank for all other applications as they work reliably and they are simple to set up and maintain. All the rage now is the clear, water bottle style tanks but I have not been bitten by that bug yet as my old conventional model tanks still provide good, reliable service at less cost.

Full scale aerobatic planes still use a clunk setup in their tanks as it is a proven setup that has stood the test of time.

I'm certainly not against bladder tanks. I just feel they have their place in limited applications and are certainly not for everyone. For the average guy, I could see them causing more problems than they solve.

+1 bc

So I'm back with another question... fuel tubing: I see it comes in a variety of diameters. How does one determine the appropriate size?

Usually using the smaller stuff isn't a concern. With the way these things sip fuel, even the smallest available will work fine.