Need engine suggestions...
 

This fall I'm going to start building a Hostetler 27% Extra 300XS. I don't want to go glow because of the mess and fuel cost, so my only other choices are gas and electric. I would prefer not to go electric because of the limited flight times (Hostetler said he was getting 11 minutes with his electric set up on this plane, and I like to be able to stay up for 15 minutes) and cost. I figure my best overall choice is gas. Well, I know nothing about gassers. :D

I spoke with Mr. Hostetler quite a bit about this plane before I bought the plans and he said that with his electric set up (see above link) his plane was only a couple of ounces shy of 13lbs all up. He said as far as gassers go that a DA50 would be a great match, but may very much overpower the plane. Also he said it would add a lot of noseweight and something would have to be done to keep the plane balanced.

I want to do IMAC type flying with a little bit of 3d tossed in. I would also like to run a 3-blade propeller if possible (better braking and great aesthetics), though I'm not really hung up on that idea. Weight is a big concern. The wing loading on Hostetler's design is very light and I want to keep it that way. I'm planning on putting the rudder and elevator servos in the tail, so that might help with nose weight.

I've checked out all the manufacturers of 35cc-58cc gassers, and frankly their published information is confusing and inconsistent, making comparisons difficult at best. Quite a few of the threads here are no different. I'm hoping to get good, logical information and recommendations from those who know more than I do about this particular subject. Let's not turn this into a flame fest; this thread could provide useful information to others in my same position.

So, with all this in mind, what would be my best engine choice and why?

Thank you to all who use their valuable time to respond!

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

Premium choice - ZDZ40 with canister muffler. Tons of power for a 13lb model, excellent quality, lots of support, very quiet (if noise is an issue)

http://www.rcshowcase.com/html/ZDZ/zdz40re.html
http://www.rcshowcase.com/html/acces...silencers.html



Budget choice - Brillelli 40GT with stock muffler. Decent power for 13lb model (not as strong as the ZDZ, however), good quality and excellent support. Stock muffler is noisy, a canister would be quiet, but adds $$$.

http://www.brillelli.com/brillelli_011.htm


Weights are very similar between the two in RTF condition. Price different is $200+...


Mark

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

ZDZ40, Taurus 2.4. For reliability, longevity, and the best quality look to the Taurus. I agree with Mr. Hostetler regarding the DA 50 being too much in both weight and power. Bear in mind that the "budget" engines usually bring along a little "baggage" when it comes to ignitions and reliability. Personal opinion is to buy once, buy well, and enjoy for decades.

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

Buy once and buy well could not be more true. I learned that the hard way a long time ago.

Actually, Mr. Hostetler recommended the DA50, simply stating that one should exercise extreme throttle control. Of course I paraphrased what he said, but that's the meaning he was trying to get across I am sure!

I have not seen much about the Taurus, though the ZDZ40RE F3A was something I was looking into the other day, but of course, there is no available information yet. What is the difference between the different ZDZ40s?

A friend recommended a GT26 and while I think that would fly it, I don't believe I would do much more than fly laps with it. I at least want to hover dammit! [sm=shades_smile.gif]

You guys would not happen to have access to the AUW of the ZDZ40 and Taurus 2.4 would you?

Thanks!

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

I'm looking on the Taurus website and don't see a 2.4 there, but I did find a 42cc. It's only about 5oz. heavier than the ZDZ, with a max RPM of 8000. Hmmmm.

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

What about the BME 44?

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

The 42cc from Taurus is what I was referring to. I pretty much lump all the 40-45cc engines in the 2.4 class. The BME 44 is another good one, but requires a beam mount if I recall correctly.

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

I'm looking at the engine weights and I don't see why I'd use a 4xcc engine when most of the good 5xcc engines are only a few ounces more. In the case of the DA50, it's lighter than the TS42 by about 6 ounces...

bleh

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

I am running a ZDZ 40RVL in a 27.5% Miles Reed Extra 260, 80"span, 15lbs dry and it is great for basic and intermediate Imac type stuff. The control surfaces are more to scale so 3D is not a strong point although it will hover and torque roll. Lomcevacs are awesome. Basically the little ZDZ flys the plane the way it was designed and does it well. Not sure about the Hostetler design though. A nice thing about the ZDZ is its compact size. Less cowl butcherage!;) Prop clearance might prove to be an issue with a larger mill.

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

A 3-blade would solve the clearance issue!

Do you have any pictures of your set up? The smaller size might be a nice thing.

I really wish I could find the weight of the various engines with all the support equipment. It seems pointless to use a 40cc engine when there are 50cc engines that are similar in size, quite a bit more powerful and that weigh less. Well, according to the manufacturers they weigh less. I mean, what if BME actually releases their Xtreme 55cc? Jeez. [sm=confused.gif]

Good thing I'm not in any hurry. I have plenty of time to pick an engine. Maybe the ZDZ 40RE F3A will be released and it will be superlight or something.

If I would have had the money I would have just gotten a 40%, bought a bigass 200cc twin and been done with it. I really need to hurry up and get my MD. :D

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

I would marry the Red Head on the right, the tall one,the one with Green Eyes, good teeth, short hair, and a slinder build.
Different strokes for different folks.

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

Extra 260 thread from Bass1:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4241566/tm.htm


50cc class engine weights (real ones, not marketing BS):

http://www.rcaerobats.net/GAS_ENGINE_WTS.htm


I like brunette's myself...:D


Enjoy,
Mark

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

RVM,

I don't know about the ZDZ and Tarus engines, but I do know about Brillelli engines and their power is just a good as any of them. Their support after the sale is the best in the business. I have even called them on a Sunday at the field and Scott called me back within 15 minutes with the answer I needed to my problem. I don't think you will find customer support like that from other manufactures.

I fly the Brillelli 40GT with a APC 20x8 prop. It is turning that 20x8 prop at 7100RPM and is giving 18lbs of thrust. My Giles-202 weigh's in at 12lbs 10oz and is a rocket. I am not into 3D flying, but with a weight to power ratio I have I am pretty sure she will hover. I am not that good of a flier yet to try 3D.

Brillelli makes 3 engines that should work for you. The 40GT, 46, and the new 366GT. The 366GT is over kill I believe, but it would work. It is only a couple of onces heavier than a DA50, but the engine is a 60cc power house. Go to www.brillelli.com and look at the engines. Give Scott a call and he will tell you right up front which engine is best suited for your plane. Every one who has every had a brillelli engine is a customer for life. The support after the sale is unbelievable.:D

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

Just my 2cents.
I have a ZDZ 80 and I find that rear carb a pain in the --. Also for the DA 50. You have to carve a hole in the mount to get it in. Then you have a hard time getting the throttle linkage and choke linkage to work - you have to carve a access thru the mount box to get at it. Also that DA 50 looks fragile to me. Great for weight but not so good in case of a mishap. I like the G45 converted to EI by Cunningham. Everything is out in front where you can get at it and the electronics is in the mount where you don't have to bother with it.

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

mmattockx: thanks for the links! Exactly what I was looking for!

jstanton: I'm looking at the Brillelli page right now. Are these conversion engines? Very nice if they are!

dirtybird: going to have to search for Cunningham. Thanks for the input!

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

That Brillelli 46cc with an electronic ignition might be nice. Brillelli claims it will swing an APC 22x8 at 6850-7300 RPMs. I bet it could get a Mezjlick or something similar a bit higher. Base engine weight is also 9oz. less than the magneto driven one. This site linked by mattockx earlier states the 46cc Brillelli has a base engine weight of 46.5oz. I wonder if that's the EI or the magneto version. Shaving 9oz. off that weight would be nice. :D

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

I'm wondering if maybe a 30cc-35cc gasser might be enough to IMAC and 3d this plane. Would this be too small?

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

It all depends on the engine. Most of the 30-35cc gassers like an Evolution are just as heavy as some of the 40cc's out there. I do know a 40 would do well on it. Maybe not a great 3D combo unless the weight was closer to 12lbs. If it was 12lb then a 40 would do well. It would keep it lite for sure.

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

I've read several instances of 40cc class engines hovering 14lbs.-15lbs planes with plenty of pullout power. What are you basing your statement on?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to learn. :)

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

RVM,

The Brillelli 26ss,40Gt and 366GT are engines designed for aircraft use. The 46 is a conversion engine, but don't let that scare you, it has plenty of power for its size and weight. Poco242 will not lead you wrong. Those 14 to 15 lbs planes my have had more wing area than the average 14 to 15 lb plane. I have the 40GT on a Giles-202 and the engine is producing 18lbs of thrust with a APC 20x8 prop. The wing load is a little on the high side and you don't want to hover a plane with a heavy wing loading. That is why Poco242 sugested the plane to be at 12lbs if possible.:eek:

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

Hmm.. if I calculate the weight of the plane at 13lbs (208oz.) AUW, the wingloading is 24.96. From my research this is relatively low compared to other plans in its same class. Of course going by wingloading alone is something of an oversimplification, but it does help in making some decisions.

Maybe I should just go with a 50cc engine...

bleh this is a hard decision to make! There needs to be one clear choice that is the best! [sm=thumbs_up.gif]

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

RVM,

I think we are getting closer. If your plane weigh's 13lbs as an electric do you think it will weigh the same as a gasser? Not sure how much the motor and batteries weigh. If so the 40GT well work, but be right on the edge for power. The Brillelli 46 produces almost 30lbs of thrust with a 22x8 prop. That would give you more than a 2 to 1 power to weight ratio and that is what you are looking for to do 3D. Plus you will get Mark and Scott at Brillelli to help you with your questions and I do mean help. They are there for you when you need them even on the weekends. I should know I have talked to them many times at the field on the weekends.:D

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

I talked to Mr. Hostetler, and he said there was about 3.5lbs - 4lbs worth of gear for the electric motor (switch, motor itself, ESC, batteries etc.). He couldn't be sure. His electric plane uses a Hacker C50. He also said that 50cc is the max for this plane, and earlier did say the DA50 or equivalent would be a good choice.

I also talked to Scott over at Brillelli and he said the 46cc swinging a Xoar 22x8 pulls 22lbs. The all up weight of the 46 is 3lbs 14oz with a rear dump muffler, and a side dump with be about 3-4oz. less. In fact, let me just quote his e-mail real quick. I hope he won't mind.

---------

The 46 is about 3lbs 14oz with a rear dump muffler. A side dump would be about 3-4oz less. Power is the same with either muffler. For a plane that light, 3D would be no trouble at all. I mean no trouble.It will hover a 15lb plane, so at 12-13 lbs it will be a rocket. Bisson makes a muffler for the engine as well, but they get $75 for it and it is not that much lighter. Just a little quieter.

Thank You,
Scott

--------

So that means it is possible for the Brillelli 46cc to come in at a AUW of around 3lbs 10oz, maybe a tad lighter. That's actually not bad, just over 3.5lbs. I am just wondering if it wouldn't be an easier and simpler decision to use a 50cc engine. The plane sits 13" from ground to prop hub, which translates into enough prop clearance for a 23" - 24" prop.

My most significant concern is weight and balance. I want to keep the plane light, and I don't want to have to add dead weight to balance it. What I may do is build the airframe first, without the engine box/mount etc., then weigh and balance it. This would tell me the weight I need, as well as the power. With 1100+ sq. in. of wing area I think going up to 14lbs would still make it an excellent IMAC and 3d plane, but I could of course be wrong, given my lack of experience in this area. See my post above for the wingloading at 13lbs. It's just a tad under 25oz/in.

What has me most confused now is that I have some people saying a 40cc (ZDZ40, Brillelli 46cc, Taurus 42cc [which isn't even in production anymore]) class engine with the plane at around 13lbs will be more than enough for any maneuver, 3d or otherwise. On the flipside, I'm seeing where others are saying that a 13lbs plane with a 40cc engine will be simply adequate. Of course, each person's definition of what is "adequate" and what is "more than enough" is probably different. Unfortunately, there is no standardized method for calculating what is "enough" or "not enough" power for each plane. There could be, because mathematics is universal and all this could be easily and almost perfectly calculated, but, alas, manufacturers and hobbyists don't seem as interested as they should be in such things.

Anyway, yes, I think I'm getting much closer to making a decision. At this point I've narrowed it down to a few manufacturers (ZDZ, Taurus, DA, Brillelli) and two engine classes (4xcc or 5xcc). This may change, especially since I'm very likely going to forego purchasing the engine until after the airframe is complete and most of the radio equipment is installed. This may make the general construction and engine installation more difficult, but it could possibly save me a lot of money and time in the end.

At least, this seems like the wise decision. :eek:

I may go have another look at the electric option.

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

Alrighty, got a reply from Mr. Hostetler about the electric weight. 4.5lbs, of which 3lbs were batteries. The advantage to the electric, as far as weight goes, is it is somewhat more adjustable in that you can move the majority of the weight around. I could always use contest grade wood in the front half of the plane and AAA in the back to add a bit of weight in the back. ;)

I'm thinking a 50cc will work super duper well, and will give me more than enough power to do whatever I want. Hmm, I wonder if BME will have their 55 out in the spring? [>:]

RE: Need engine suggestions...
 

Call Keith at BME and see if he will build you a BME 44. Last time I talked to him--they were in limited supply and being phased out of production. His website claims to have them in stock--but you'd better call him first. He may still have some around and he might custom build one for you if your nice when you talk to him.

You need LIGHT. You don't want your wing loading to go through the roof and ruin the way the plane flies. Any 50cc engine is going to be too heavy. That BME 44 is the lightest thing your going to get that will 3D the plane and yank it out of a hover without giving you a wing loading of 35oz.

Check into it. I know there are guys here who will disagree with me. It's not about what engine a guy favors. It's not about which is more reliable or not. They are ALL reliable if you just tune them right and treat them to good oil. 95% of problems with gas engines are end-user related. It's not the engine.

That BME 44 will be the lighest setup you can get. It will put out the power you need for your intended purpose. Check into it.