RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

Thanks for the info Dick. I think I'll just leave the needle valves alone since it has been running so good and I'm not doing damage from running too lean.

Ken

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

The oil contribution to carbon build up in an engine is only part of the story, if you took a ZDZ or DA or 3W and could run it on propane you would see a big reduction in deposits inside the engine. The problem with running the experiment is that you have to have a way of getting oil into the engine as propane engines of this type would need a separate oiling system.

Now take the same engine and run it on kerosene (yes it will run on kerosene but may not start on it) you will see more deposits than with gasoline. To do this you still have to add oil to the fuel even though kerosene has some lubrication propertys.

Now take an engine like a ZDZ or DA or 3W and modify it for OIL-LESS running ( yes that can be done but the engine develops less power) you will find that the carbon deposits are very hard, you will not be able to just wipe or lightly scrape the deposits off the internal parts. The carbon is coming from the fuel since there is no oil in the engine. the point is that the FUEL is a contributor in the carbon build up we see in our engines.

(Oil-less engines can be made with all rolling element bearings on every moving bearing surface, the piston has Teflon plugs all over the rubbing surface and the cylinder surface that is in contact with the piston is coated with a proprietary low friction coating (very expensive). The piston rings are a special form of carbon something like what was used in early air cooled wankel engines. These experimental engines don't produce the power of regular lubricated engines because friction is a bit higher with no oil even though special coatings are used and there is less heat transfer from piston to cylinder because of the coatings, so piston temperature is a consideration that governs how much power you can pull from the engine.)

One of the functions of good 2 cycle engine oil is to keep the carbon somewhat softer that if there was no oil in the fuel so that it can be burned, washed or scrubbed off to some degree as the engine runs.

It is very difficult to keep cylinder head temps the same on 2 cylinders engines like we use.... there are too many unsymmetrical things going on due to porting, crank rotation, cylinders not in line, unbalanced cooling, non symmetrical porting between cylinders etc. You can kind of do it if the engine is designed to run in a narrow speed range but the greater the speed range where you pull power the more difficult it becomes.

Bill Krueger (OMC Engine Development 30 years , retired)

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

Bill, thanks very much for the information. Have you found that any particular brands of gasoline burn cleaner in our 2 cycle engines. As an example, does Mobil or Shell produce less carbon than some of the more economy brands or is it simply the fact that we are using gasoline?

What you said about the oil keeping the carbon soft was my conclusion about the photos above that I took. The softness and flaking off as evidenced by the bright clean places on the piston must be normal.

Ken

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

Bill Krueger (OMC Engine Development 30 years , retired)
I too would like to know about the gasoline that you would recommend. I know most if not all gas has detergents. Which are better. I have heard of people purchasing carb cleaner and adding it to the gas. WHat are your thoughts.

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

Does anyone have experience with running Motul synthetic instead of amsoil. I have a Friend who is a mechanic for a motorcycle race team and he says motul is the best but would like to hear some thoughts. I hope you don't mind asking in this thread?

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

Brian, here is a link to a thread about Motul. You can do a search and find more. Sounds like very good oil.

Ken

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_12...tm.htm#1290583

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

Oy vey! 100:1....50:1.... What's the point to these posts? Are we wanting to save 0.69$ a pint?

Here's a novel idea....just run at what the MFG's recommend, Ok? Jeez, is this an issue that everyone wants to chime in on?

I run 0:1... I have a very high (subjective) head temperature. SHould I try some oil (duh?) ?:eek:

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

^^^Totally agree...

I think what everyone is worried about is having to clean there plane at the end of the day. :D

These engines after all is said and done are nothing more than modified chainsaw/weedwacker engines and anything running on 2 stroke fossil fuel or synthetic is going to have carbon build-up and worrying about what fuel has less carbon is just a little silly to me.

More lubrication is better than less…

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

Up to this point this has been a sensible thread discussing gasoline engines and synthetic oils. If it bothers you to read this "silly" stuff, then when you see this thread come up, please pass it right on by. By the way, DA, BME, 3W, ZDZ, Brison, Fox and probably Fuji never were in a chainsaw.

Ken

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

You missed the point...Where talking about "Modified "chainsaw" engines, But I forgot DA, BME, 3W, ZDZ, Brison, Fox and probably Fuji all designed there engines from the ground up and never took a design from anyone else. ;)

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

Can we get back on topic?
I am asking pczanowski and Mokken to please participate only when they have something to contribute.
Thank you

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

Regarding the question of gasoline brands and clean running there are many factors,

First - the same brand of gas has different formulations depending on which part of the country it is sold in and what season of the year it is, for example in areas where it really get cold in winter the gas has more "light ends" to make the engines start easier.

Second - In some areas some gas stations use the same gas delivered from the same central point so that you are actually getting the same thing from two or three different stations.

Third - Since the EPA mandates different gasolines for areas of high pollution in the US. the different "boutique" blends as they are called, vary greatly from the same brand depending on which part of the country you are in.

About the only thing you can do as far as hoping to get clean running gasoline is stay with the big name brands.

One of the good thing to come out of having modern auto engines being fuel injected is that it kind of forced the gasoline manufactures to add cleaners to their fuels, when injected engines first started being used in cars there was a lot of trouble with injector nozzle deposits from the gas of that time, Detroit put a lot of pressure on the gasoline people to filter and add cleaners to the gas because the dirty injector problem was so bad, consequently the gas we have now days burns cleaner to begin with.

This is not to say that different oils don't make a big difference in deposits when they burn, they do make a difference and there is a difference in 2 stroke oils depending on if they are made for air-cooled engines or water cooled engines. For anyone interested in some good oil info the site for Pennzoil used to have on it an explanation of the differences in formulation between oils meant for water and air cooled 2 strokes. (I don't know if it is still there but probably it is.) Modern 2 stroke oils are a big improvement over what they were years ago and that makes our R/C engines run that much better specially after they accumulate some hours on them.

Bill Krueger

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

I am contributing, I'm trying to open your eyes to the fact that no matter what oil you run and what gas your run in your 2 stroke motor, it's still going to get carbon buildup, it's still going to wear out (eventually) and what you are trying to do with running different oils or gas will not prevent this from happening any sooner, well you might get an hour or two more. :D And the fact that you won't own the motor long enough to get the full life out of it another topic all together. :) This hobby is not rocket science, but some of you try and make it that.

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

You will have carbon in a gas burning engine like your car or truck motor !!! No we are not talking about cars or trucks engines but some are saying that the oil is causing carbon !! Even with out oil you still get carbon !! I think that the guy that tried to burn it says it all he got it hotter than our engines will ever get and it would not burn !! He did not wind up with a set of china or melted glass !! Do you still think it is the oil ? When you are using a weed eater do you sturr up dust ( look in your weed eater filter ) yes you do could there be sand in the dust if it gets in your weed eater would it get in your engine yes it would !! We have a better chance of getting dirt in our engines on a grass runway we dont run filters on our engines . All I am trying to say is it may not be the oil !!!

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

I quoted some temp measurements, does anyone else have any????

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

Ken,
Actually, according to RCS, the ZDZ's should be run on 50:1 synthetic after breakin at 40:1 on dino.

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

Bill, what would you recommened we use in our two stroke single cylinder engines? As far as what brand oil and the oil ratio?

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

Nic, here is a quote from the ZDZ web site:

"We recommend the use of a good quality super (95+ Octane) gasoline and a semisynthetic or synthetic oil (specifically formulated for high performance air cooled two stroke engines) in 40:1 ratio. Make sure that the mixture is filtered before use. Avoid to use filters inside the tanks which can make fuel intake to the carburrettor difficult."

I bought my ZDZ80RV from RCS and followed their break-in directions to the letter. It's a super good engine. My only point was that whether you follow ZDZ's or RCS's recommendations, an 80:1 or 100:1 synthetic oil mix is not appropriate for this engine.

Ken

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

If the needles are not too lean - -50 -1 works
BUT I am getting CLEANER operation with the syn at 32-1
cleaner being the piston/ plug and cyl.
factory -says 40-1

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

Can someone tell me the difference in the amsoil 2000 & the SABER i see on the logo now.

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

I have notice that as I run the engine more with 100:1 I get less black residue and more of an oil film.

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

What amsoil are you using ??

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

I am using the 100:1 Saber mixed at 90:1
I find that the mix rations are wrong.
A 8oz bottle mixed with 6 gallons of gas is not 100:1 but 96:1
128*6/8=96

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

Here's something to throw into the "oil can".
I recently bought a NEW fuji 50sb. In the box were the instructions for using Fuji oil. They had put a 3.5 oz of their oil in the box.
The ADDED instructions stated that if you broke in the engine with this oil for 1 gal, you could then shift to a 100-1 mix and go flying. They also stated that if the engine was uncowled, you could run the engine on a 150-1 mix. Mind you this was using Fuji oil. They reccomended that if the enging was cowled, to use the lower ratio. Also this engine has a 3 year werrently on it defevts in mat'l or workmanship.
Now what is this stuff? For me it works great. The engine is cowled(Chris. Eagle) with a velocity sgack sticking through the cowl.

Amother "Marvelous Mystery Oil" ?
Zee AMA129570

RE: Amsoil 50:1 and 100:1 Temp diff in BME 102?
 

This discussion on various oils and mix ratios is missing a very important point and that is that one manufacturers 50 to 1 oil compared to another manufacturers 50 to 1 oil ( or 100 to 1 or 32 to 1 etc.) does not usually mean that you end up with the SAME AMOUNT or TYPE of oil lubrication in the fuel.

The oil manufacturers ADD things to their oil to allow it to mix easily with gasoline, this is specially important when mixing gas and oil at lower temperatures, with out these additives the oil may not fully mix with the gas specially if the gasoline is not agatated after the oil is added. Needless to say that gas/oil mix that does not have the oil compleatly mixed can cause big trouble if the engine get some gas with little oil in it. These chemicals that are added to the oil also KEEP the oil in suspension in the gasoline this action is very important when using synthetic oils as some of them do not naturally stay in supension in gasoline indefinatly. Many times stabilizers are added to the oil so that the gas/oil combination will store for longer periods with out degrading.

What this means is that depending on the formulation of the oil you are not really getting say a 50 to 1 oil gas ratio when using"50 to 1" oil cause of the other additives, it may really be a 70 to 1 ratio as far as actual lubricating oil because the rest of the "oil" is not oil but additives.

For instance Amsoil uses a special lubricant in their 100 to 1 oil that does not require much in additives to make it blend with gasoline, so their oil with little or no blending additives actually ends up providing about the same lubrication as some other brands that are advertised at 50 to 1. Part of this equivelency to 50 to one is also due to the quality of the lubrication in Amsoil and some other brands of synthetic oil, the actual friction reducing capability of the oil is better so less oil can still have the same net lubricating value as another oil that has less lubricating capability, this is specailly true under high temperature conditions..... bottom line is that all oils are NOT the same!

As Dick said earlier sometimes adding oil can make an engine run cleaner cause it keeps the carbon soft and contains cleaners like detergent etc. Oil formulations can vary quite a bit depending on type of operating enviroment they are made to be used in, that is why there is a difference between oils that are made to be used in engines depending on whether the engine is a 2 stroke air or water cooled engine. (the water cooled oils have more additives cause the lower temperatures allow them to be used without producing combustion deposits, air cooled oils have less additives specially detergents cause the higher temps. cause these additives to form excessive combustion deposits.)

Point of interest, we found that when using petrolium based oils in two stroke mix, max horsepower was usually obtained with ratios between about 20 to 30 to 1. The added oil reduced friction and increased piston cylinder seal faster than the loss of fuel burned due to it's volume being taken up by oil.

Bill Krueger Ex. OMC