I just came back from my LHS they have sold out all the Spectrum radios on their first shipment and the second shipment is all promised WOW Thinking when everyone gets one or almost everyone there will be no need to make a matrix for racing Put everyones name in a hat and draw out four names for each heat. No more getting on the same frequency as the "Good guy " you race everybody,even your "partner caller" No more one plane heats because of crashes or dropouts Every round will be four plane heats No more sitting around while the CD "adjusts" the matrix and gets it wrong anyway. Just think if a guy has a problem you could throw his name back in the pot and he has time to fix until the last heat of the round. Free rides are over!!!!! Lets get started on this locally Get everyone on a different frequency and dump the matrix!!!!!!

But what will the "good guys" do than ??

Albert:
It won’t change anything. We will still have pilot and caller teams that will never race each other in the same race. This is not only a national but also international concept. At most big races the top callers call for 3 or 4 guys so all are on the same freq, phantom or otherwise. In thinking about it almost everyone (pilots) call for someone else which means they can’t race each other. Since we use wing stripes for lane ID each pilot will still remain in his assigned lane all day long. We do not permit filling the matrix. It stands as generated for the entire race. It may change in the future but that’s the way it is now. It would also mean we would have to mandate synth radio systems, which at current prices are considerably more expensive than entry level 72mz system not to mention loosing the investment we already have in radios. I have 4 Hitec Eclipse transmitters used just for racing and probably 15 receivers. BTW we have had this capability for years using the existing 72mz systems with synth transmitters. As you may have noticed it hasn’t changed anything. A change to no teams would actually benefit me since my caller and wife does not fly but I don’t think it will never happen.

Barry

So the "good guys" have nothing to worry about

I agree Barry, I don't see this changing anything in the near future anyway. Imagine a sponsored Futaba flyer having to use a Spektrum/Horizon/JR radio.

See you Saturday Albert, I have a bag of servos if your interested in taking a look at them?

I imagine time will take of that, once everyone is doing the spread thing. Then it would become moot point and help eliminate a sore spot in out sport.

But Albert does have the correct vision even though he's like 500 years old

Albert,

Most of the problems you mention can be resolved by using Paul Herman's Warbird Racing Program to handle your matrix and scoring results (who earned high points, who had fastest time). We have had problems with the latter (scoring) when we did that by hand, even though we used Hank Kauffmann's forms for matrixing (for that, they are great).

But then, I expect the people running your races have both of those available, as they are a free download from the NMPRA web site.

Ken Erickson
San Antonio, TX

Personally, I think it will be years before you see everyone running the 2.4ghz systems. Look around the local fields and you still see guys using transmitters that are 15 years old. Not everyone in "pylon" will instantly switch. Plus like Barry said, Pylon is a Team sport....you have callers and pilots that both fly, pretty hard to have two teammates in separate lanes.

2.4ghz is certainly a new wave of technology for us r/c guys, but it will take many years for that to filter through. And the 72mhz stuff works extremely well, so some guys may not have any desire to ever switch?????

Randy Bridge
Team Horizon

Ken we have been using Paul’s program for several years now. It was originally written for AMA class racing It is great and I cannot thank Paul enough.

So let’s take the “no matrix� concept to its ultimate conclusion using me as an example.
This of course would require a simple rule change eliminating any freq conflicts so all pilots are on their own freq.

1.Buy four 2.4 systems @ $400.00 each (I use a different TX for each class)
2.Buy 10 extra receivers @$ 100.each (1 for each race plane plus a couple of spares)
3.Find a non racer who is willing to spend days practicing and learning to call for me exclusively and who is able and willing to go to every race I want to go to with lodging and travel paid for by me of course.
4.Eliminate or change the lane wing stripes so we have the highest chance of racing every entrant by changing lanes each heat.
5.Recompile the matrix after each round so open lanes due to crashes and mid airs can be filled.
6.To make it fair the minim number of rounds should be that number that insures all pilots race each other and of course if time were to run out prior to finishing one of these everyone races everyone segments you would simply go back to the last complete segment to figure scores.

I hope you realize this is strictly tongue in cheek but we should be careful what we wish for we might get it.


Actually if we really wanted everyone to race everyone else it’s very simple. Just adopt the FAI scoring system. In FAI by definition everyone races everyone else because all scoring consists of heat times not who won or lost. Wouldn’t cost a cent but because we relish our man on man mid air laden style of racing where the guy who is not the best pilot with the fastest plane has a chance it will probably never happen.

Barry

classic old problem, best guy at the field runs ch. 44, 6 out of 20 someracers who show up go to ch.44 so they don't have to race the best. It jacks with the matrix and skews who really is best. I know it's not a perfect world, but I know this is what Alert was talking about.

Speaking of Albert, on our NCPL racing site there's a pic of him in hot racing action in 1973. Sheezes,

Now that is so true

Ed S

Barry for Pres! I love just racing the clock, not having to worry whether or not the guy next to you has a cut. That's sounds like the next rules proposal ??


RB

This is off topic but in response to Ed and Randy

Actually we are toying with the idea of combining AMA-NMPRA scoring with FAI for one of our Q40 or 428 races this year. The plan would be to run the heats just like FAI. Launch with 1 second delay between planes. (No mid grounds and less chance for mid air). Keep track of heat time. 1 cut 10% penalty 2 or more or DNS/DNF 200 second heat time. After heat award AMA-NMPRA points by low times. (200 gets zero). The point scores would be the same as now. We may even consider throwing out the worst round after 5 like FAI.

Why do I want to do this? For a while I kept track of Q40 carnage. On average we loose 30 to 35 percent of our entries. At a JR Gold several years I counted 31 Q40’s lost, not just damaged but totaled. My numbers may be high or low but everyone who is competitive in 422 or 428 looses a lot or equipment (read spends a lot time and money)

I was team manager of the 2001 US F3D team, like Q40 but a little bigger, faster and more expensive. That year the world event was held in Aus. I believe total entries (3 per country) were about 50. As I remember it not one airplane was lost during the actual race. Not one mid air and of course no mid grounds. We flew 14 or 15 rounds.

In my opinion adopting FAI style scoring would dramatically decrease the carnage we now experience. Some may like it some may not but I believe in the long run it would improve the viability of pylon racing.

Just my option.
Barry

I miss the good old days of frequency ganging. Doubt too many of you remember the Nats in the late 80's when the winner of Formula One had a best time of 1:17 and several in the 20's. A hump with a bit of money and no talent, that was meant to be the joke in the fast gang that all arrived on the same frequency. Thanks to his frequency selection, he didn't have to race very many fast guys while others outside the umbrella had hard races every heat.

Bring on spread spectrum.

Wow, sold me on FAI. With that level of comittment and potenial of risk with 422 and 428 classes it does make sense.

I would miss the heads up kinda thing, cuts and all. But with the big bucks wrapped into these things, it be nice to follow a safer convention.


But I like your style, Highplains

Racing the clock? Racing against yourself? No thanks. I can do that at my own club field every weekend. True, at the end of the day, you'll find out who flew the best and was consistantly the fastest. Yawn. I guess we could all go fly our hardest at our home fields, email our times to the CD and he could mail off a trophy to the winners . That sounds like fun.

Head to head competition. Not me against the clock, me against YOU. The strategy of a 4 plane race with the cuts and the crashes and everything. Holding a lead when someone is closing in on you, or flying your guts out trying to real in the leader, or just trying not to get lapped. Wingtip to wingtip racing, flying tight and clean. You know, those races where the lead changes on every lap? A real battle. Maybe you put so much pressure on your fellow competitor he cuts, while you fly your hardest and try to remain smooth and focused enough so you don't. Trying to find that perfect line while fighting your way through traffic. Flying competitively yet smart and defensively enough to minimize your midair risk and come home with an airplane. THAT'S RACING!!!

If you guys really want "time trials", enjoy.

I'm here to RACE [>:]

Oh yeah, change our scoring system, change the matrix, change the teams, and change the rules all you want. The same people are gonna be winning.

[8D]

Well guys,

We do not have some of the problems of the semi-pros. Our $70.00 airplanes with LAs go approx. 65 mph. With TT Pros, they go approx. 95mph. In 7 race dates, averaging only 12 participants, (most was 16) we have had only one plane destroyed. The new guys raced 3-plane heats for the first 3 or 4 dates, and no planes were destroyed. Only in the 4-plane, 95 mph heat was that one whacked.

We still have GREAT fun and relish our man on man racing.

We do not want to change anything you guys do. It's just that what we, and the guys in Florida, are doing is a heck of a lot of inexpensive fun. Those Florida guys were even smart enough to stick with the 65 mph setup.

We are still OK with Matrix, as we have "Feature/Mains" for everyone after the heats are run and the points printed out. After we recognize "Fast Time" and "High Heat Points", we race lowest point people against each other, etc, until we get to the final of the top point people.

Ken Erickson
San Antonio, TX

Easy Clark, this is jsut a discussion... we aren't going to change the head to head racing . I'm sure that Barry and I both enjoy the head to head stuff as much as the next guy. Most of the guys that I've ever talked to on this subject line, certainly feel the same way you do.

Barry does bring up an interesting point though. Mid-airs can carnage. At the 2005 Worlds in France...you ready?..... ONE mid-air...that's it...amazing.

RB

Gotta admit, Clark, you do describe RACING.

My point is that we can have just that kind of racing at 65 mph, when there are a bunch of us with almost identical equipment.

As to the theme of this thread, I do believe that many of the TOP DOG, fast pylon people will get the 2.4 GHz equipment. Some of the rest of us will. A bunch of us will continue with what we have, and love it that are fewer demands on our channels.

We will still be using the matrix for our fun and games, even if it is just to have the computer help us avoid all the human error we have experienced.

Now, the guys on Florida are not using the traditional matrix, as they, by edict, have no frequency conflicts. However, an excess of success can tend spoil most plans.

Ken Erickson
San Antonio, TX

No matter what, you have to use some sort of organized matrix, otherwise you run the possibility of some people racing each other multiple times, while others never race. As long as we're using the lane stickers, you'll automatically not race agains a fourth of the contestants. I haven't been to a race in quite some time where there was "frequency ganging" because most of the contests limit how many entries per frequency.

Double ditto Clark.

Well, hopefully Phoenix will offer some of this... "swaping the lead, every lap".. kind of fun. It's like a comedy fest on the RCU.

Randy Bridge

Who's to say that once this technology becomes completely embraced, the FCC will not take 72 MHz away from us anyway? Hasen't that always been a threat, and one of the main reasons to support the AMA as our frequency lobby? I honestly believe that the use of 2.4 gig will be forced on us whether we like it or not. I am sure we all remember getting 91' approved with the narrow band. These frequencys are a comodity and most people do not really care about our "toy airplanes", especially when there is money to be made.
I think this is actually great and will purchase one of these radios probably this year. I had racing in mind specifically for it as well.
As for needing a bunch of transmitters that would be extremely unnecesarry unless you were worried about your battery running out. The recievers lock onto your transmitter and will not allow you to fly the wrong model as our current radios will.

Clark and Randy, I don't plan on being in any heats where the lead is being swapped back and forth...I just plan on being in the lead! [>:] I'll try to be far enough out in front that I don't give you too much bad air...