Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

In the past few weeks I've placed orders with numerous giant scale hobby distributors and a trend seems to be developing that I don't like at all.

That's a total lack of sales invoicing included with the orders. Some of us have business interests in the hobby field and a lack of invoice with a product means we can't track the part or don't have a record for tax purposes. Be advised, those that don't want to provide an invoice with an order probably won't see any of my business again.

Yes, I know I can print an invoice out from the web sales pages but that does not verify anything. Plus, I'm already paying for the product and invoice through the cost of my order. There's no reason that I should commit more of my time and personal resources to complete the sellers end of a business transaction.

PAU was the first time I've used them with B&E Graphics being the second. So PAU and B&E, I hope you're reading this loud and clear. No invoice, no more orders. At least from me. You guys have nice stuff but you need to complete the paperwork to close the deals.

Jake Ruddy

My Feedback: (40)

Whats wrong with printing the invoice from the shopping cart as you complete the order? That is a valid invoice and part of the electronic age The airline doesnt mail me a receipt when I buy a ticket online (and hasnt for years) so I dont really see the problem.

I can type out an invoice in excel that looks the same and the irs takes it.

Rcpilot

My Feedback: (78)

Did you call them and ask for an invoice? I can't see why they wouldn't print one out for you.

Taking tax deductions on your smashed balsa, huh? Care to let the rest of us in on how you pull that off? If I knew how to write off balsa and engines, I'd have a LOT more airplanes.

Ken-h

My Feedback: (3)

Pat,

I am the one who shipped your items out to you. I thought I had put an invoice in with your order and if I did not I apologize. The shopping cart also creates an invoice and emails it to you when you place the order so really you should have gotton two. Sorry again, hopefully this will be good enough for you.

Ken

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Just for reference, both companies named in the original post have sent e-mails apologising for failing to send an invoice and attached electronic invoices to their e-mails. One of them even reminded me that I could have printed an invoice out at the time I placed the order. Yep, I sure could have, and I still have the e-mails from the original transactions for both companies to do so if I had that desire. That's not the point. Where's the invoice/packing lists that should have been with the shipped products? The point is that an invoice should have accompanied the shipped order.

I agree that the customer has the ability to print an invoice from an electronically placed order. No doubt of that at all. However, anything I have shipped to me should have a packing list. That packing list also acts as an invoice in itself if it's set up accordingly. When I open the box I can review the packing list/invoice and compare against the original order that I may or may not have printed out when I placed the order. I might also place an order over the phone so where would the invoice be for that order? Having a shipping invoice included in the shipped package also provides the customer the ability to compare pricing and charges against the original order amount. Part by part. When I ship back to a distributor there has to be some sort of document, generated by the shipper, that's me, included with the parts describing the parts.

The point is that it's not the customers responsibility to generate a sales ticket, packing list, or invoice. That's the responsibility of the seller. In the work I do the company purchases millions upon millions of dollars worth of goods. Regardless of how many parts or how many dollars of value the order has, without a packing list/invoice that order is rejected and returned. In the many years I've been doing this I have always insisted on an invoice, and will continue to do so. Perhaps it's time we start sending stuff back and undoing credit card charges for the same reason.

These are not the first two instances this has happend, but it has been happening so frequently (including a recent Horizon order) that it might indicate a trend on the part of some distributors to avoid "additional" work or incurred costs on their end. Some distributors are very insistent that they have a copy of their original paperwork if you need service performed, and their shipping documents are different from their invoicing. No doc, no repairs. Perhaps a simple oversight in these instances but standard business and accounting practices seem to be getting shorted everywhere you turn. If permitted to continue it becomes a habit, then the norm. Then it's too late to correct anything.

People are getting lazier, or putting more of their responsibility off to others, every day and that needs to cease. Anything I print out from an e-mail is not a valid document and can be challenged at any time. The paperwork that arrives with the product is the valid document. Put an invoice or packing list in the box. Simple as that. It's just good business to complete the paperwork trail.

If this seems "over the top" just consider how much we've permitted standards to fall. I'm reasonably certain there are more people than myself that have similar thoughts and experiences but they just haven't expressed them.

Oilsands

I know for me, I like the fact that the invoices are now emailed to me (at the time of purchase). This means that I can store the paperwork electronically and not have a pile of papers sitting somewhere. I can not recall any companies that I have ordered from that have not included an invoice with the items shipped. I do keep these paper invoices, but much perfer the electronic invoice. Having these companies cut down on the amount of paperwork they print out is a benefit to all, since that means that their costs are lower which should keep the costs of the items lower for us.

I think you should not point out companies directly, especially when they appologize and admit that there was a mistake on their part, only for you to complain about them again. I think what PAU has posted in this thread was very good of them. I am sure they only mentioned that the invoice was emailed to you in case you did not recall this and that it was an option for you to have the invoice that you wanted. I am also sure that they included one with the email, so that you could have one right away. I am sure that if you asked for a faxed or mailed a copy, they would do as asked. Like they said, it was a mistake and one should have been included in the package.

For a company to publically admit that they made a mistake, appologize for the error on their part, state that one (invoice) should have been included, and to try and fix (send you an email of the invoice) the proplem quickly, is a company worth doing business with.

As for electronic invoices, as far as I know (and have never had a problem) they are valid stored documents. Times have changed, no longer is paper copies needed to be stored. But you need the ability to be able to pull them up and print them out. Storing in the electronic version is a lot neater and easier to keep track of.

You are entitled to you opinion and I to mine. You are also entitled to a paper invoice to be included with your items that you purchased. But don't knock the paperless invoices, they are great for most of the population.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

You clearly missed the intent of my last post. I applaud PAU for responding and I think that was very nice. They did what they could to obtain a quick resolution to the problem.

The fact remains I still only have electronic copies of documentation, and no, they are not legal records if the IRS or other government agency ever wanted to split hairs, which they usually do. You can be hung by them (electronic records) but it can be difficult to defend by them because electronic media can be changed by those with the knowledge to do so. Ends up a "he said, she said" deal. Who's copy is the correct one?

Not naming companies makes it impossible for companies to determine who is having issues. If those are companies that have numerous employees they may not know they have an issue if all the employees answer as they usually do and say "it wasn't me" or "we always include the paperwork". I was a long time business owner and found that unless I was periodically looking over shoulders employees would cut a few corners with a lot of frequency. People haven't changed.

BTW, there's still a lot of people out there that don't back up computer data. I have 4 back ups but what happens to data stored on a single disc when the hard drive crashes? Any idea what it costs to recover data from a crashed hard drive?? My point is that paper still retains a place in the business world. Let's not place all the eggs in one basket.

Oilsands

I got the intent of your post (you would still like to receive paper invoices), but it also sounded like the mentioned companies are ones that no one should do business with because they missed putting a paper invoice in the package. It also sounded like any business that did not include a paper invoice is one that no one should do business with. Maybe I read to much into your post. I am not sure if you asked for a copy of the paper invoice to be mailed to you, I would think both companies would supply that if needed.

I agree that (anyone that needs records for business purposes) electonic invoices themselves are not enough, they have to be printed out to supply to the agency if requested for that info. Maybe it is different in the US. I know of very large companies that are putting a lot of their paperwork into electronic form (just because it is easier to store and easier to retreive). As far as I know, once they do this the paperwork is destroyed.

Most people with a good scanner and printer can change any document and make it very hard for anyone to tell that it is not an original invoice.

I agree that there are a lot of people who do not back up computer data. Not everyone needs to back up their data, but all business do need to. There are some that get lucky and have never had a lose of data and there are other that were not as lucky. Then there are those who backed up the data and whether they had computer problems or not are still ok.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

My intent on doing business whs that I, personally, prefer not to do business where I don't, or more accurately, won't, be provided a paper invoice. What others do is their business not mine.

I'm sure that in the three instances I've noted it was a simple oversight. With the Horizon shipment the "in case of problems" return envelope was in the box but no invoice or shipping manifest. So it happens to anyone.

Oilsands

As PAU stated, there should have been an invoice in the package. It was their mistake that some how one was not put in. It just sounded as if you are saying that these companies never include a paper invoice at all. I hate to see companies get bad feedback for something that is not normal business practices for them. I have never done business with any of the companies you mentioned, so I can't say that for sure that they do not have a problem (not including a paper invoice in the package). It just did not sound like it was common that PAU would normally forget to include the paperwork. I have heard nothing but good things about PAU in all areas of their business. I am in the stage of having ordered a couple of planes and other items from PAU (though their Canadian Dist), but have not recieved them as of yet (due to one of them not being in stock and I requested that all be shipped together).
I also agree with you, companies that do not have good business practices (ie: poor cust service, slow returns of repairs, etc) are ones that I would not do business with either, untill they fix their problems.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

I think we agree that the omissions were simple errors. PAU has some very good products and orders are processed and shipped quite rapidly. Absolutely a firm I'd do business with again.

Now we got that out of the way.... we all need to pay attention to the things we do at work. Looking at the professional landscape and I believe many would agree that we've become sloppier in record keeping than we used to be. Unfortunately, as great as they are, the use of computers may be largely to blame.

canavanbob

My Feedback: (20)

I agree, why don't you be the first to thow away your computer and quit being lazy. When someone has a problem with my business I would much rather them contact me and resolve the problem then come on a public forum and whine about it.
Bob

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Would you prefer that I named every distributor/shipper that has failed to handle their paper work in the past 18 months? One post should cover all 8 of them. Many are failing to complete finalize details so why not bring the situation to the attention of all at the same time?

This isn't a "complaint" as such against any given distributor but a note to all of them. I'm surprised that a couple of you have lacked the perception to see that.

canavanbob

My Feedback: (20)

My perception tells me that if you name names and are threatening to boycot a couple af vendors you are complaining. So I guess your and my(and others) perception is different.
Bob

canavanbob

My Feedback: (20)

Note to all RC vendors: Please insert invoice with all orders or Tired Old Man(Pat) will not do business with you!

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Sorry you don't like the way I phrase things Bob, and anyone else for that matter. Thank you for the bold heads up. I'm sure all the vendors can do without the orders, especially now.

So far this year I've spent a little over $12,000.00 in modeling related products. Last year was a bit over $8.000.00. The year before was in the same general area. Next year could be equal or greater than this year. I can determine that because I save and store all the invoices and sales tickets in one location. How many customers does any hobby retailer have to pick up after losing that much in sales? What if it's your first transaction with a company to "test the waters" and you didn't believe your order was handled professionally? Do you remain silent and simply not conduct future business? Most would do it that way. Matter of fact, one of the local businesses in my area was pleased to receive new business today because another retailer failed to provide an invoice. That was $150.00 in the register today that they wouldn't have had otherwise.

Generally I'm not at home when I order things or when they arrive. When I get to a pile of boxes it's rather nice to be able to open the box and simply check off the shipped items on the included invoice. It's not right that I need to leave the shop, go to the house which is not connected, fire up a computer and printer, search for a file, print out the manufacturer's invoice(s), and return to do what should have already been done had the paperwork been there. Now do that for 10 or 15 boxes, one at a time, as they are opened and you don't find any paperwork. Do that many times a year. Getting the picture yet?

Now if that's seems unreasonable to you, that's just too bad. If your business does not want any part of the thousands of dollars I spend each year on product, just say you don't feel your business should be required to provide a shipping manifest, invoice, or itemized bill of lading, or comply with what are still considered standard business practices. That's all you need to do. Then tell every other company you do business that you are no longer going to provide such paperwork or adhere to normal business methods. Watch what happens.

Businesses serve the customers, not the other way around. Many business in many areas have forgotten that and customers migrate rapidly to where they receive the service they feel they are entitled to. Yes, entitled. Anything I'm paying for grants a certain level of entitlement. If I wan't paying for it there would be no entitlement. Price isn't the only reason people take their business elsewhere. You implied you have a business. What would happen if you suddenly told them everything was going to be your way because it's your company and you can do everything any way you want to?

It's the little things, generally in combination, that provides the impetus for people to do business with one firm or another. When enough little things start to dissapear people look elsewhere until they find that comfort level again. Now a customer can simply ignore the changes of one little thing here, then another little thing there, etc., until they finally start to feel uncomfortable and search out another firm to conduct business with that reinstates that lost confort level. Or that customer can let the businesses know that they are slipping and provide the heads up that some attention to detail needs to be exercised.

Doesn't matter the type of business, but in this case it just happens to be modeling distributors. Yes, I named a few, but that did not cover as many as have been remiss in completing their paperwork. In this case I elected to make it a public notice. Perhaps I should not have named any particular firm, but then again, a few that I felt had a problem became instantly aware of it. All at once. Damned for doing it one way and likely ignored if I had done it another way. Oh, well. And you're correct in one respect. If a company doesn't want to do the paperwork then someone else can get the sale. There's no shortage of companies trying to make a sale and maintain incoming revenue, especially now. PAU handled the situation, some others have not. Pretty simple really.

Now if I've ruffled your business or political correctness feathers, so sorry. If you are one of the business owners that think the customer is there for you, and not the other way around, so be it. Unless your business is ultra specialized and is the only one producing a critical product or service it doesn't work that way. In this economy you probably won't be around as a business much longer if you believe the customer is secondary to your whims. Many companies of many business types are going to fail in the next 12 months or so. How they handle their customers and the customer's comfort levels may well be deciding factors between success or failure. Consumers do absolutely have the ability to make changes in where they do business, and there are many reasons for them to make changes.

canavanbob

My Feedback: (20)

Well, you certianly have a great imagination! I simply stated that you could have conatcted the supplier first to give your business theory to them. They would probably bend over backworks to satisfy someone that spends as much as you do. They would probably send a limo to pick you up and bring you to the shop.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Let's get together and review the documentation if you feel I'm f.o.s. I'll likely be back in the Anaheim area pretty soon and I can bring all of it with me. Or you can come up north for a day or so. Of course you'll have to make the public statement confirming the sales amounts. I've also placed orders for well over $10k worth of tools and materials for a specific work project this year, and guess what? Every vendor provided an invoice or manifest. That was just a little project.

Sorry Bob, but you take care of the customers or look for new ones. What's so hard about that to understand? Or is that why so many businesses find it so difficult to build a repeat customer base? It's much easier to service a repeat customer. They're already happy because they know your business fulfills their needs or has the solution to their problem. Don't forget that every business is sales based in one manner or another. You have to spend more money in advertising or shoe leather to find a new one. Little things most certainly do matter.

Funny you should mention a limo. Fly enough international miles and a couple of the international air carriers will send one to the hotel to pick you up Yea, just a little over the top but it sure keeps bringing you back to the same airline every time you travel overseas. Makes you feel like they care....

canavanbob

My Feedback: (20)

Somehow you keep reading things into what I say that are not there. I do not dought the veracity if your claims. I even agree that there sould be an invoice with every shipment. There is no need to prove anything to me. I simply tried to make the point that you could have simply called and explained that you did not receive an invoice and straightened it out with the vendor one on one. I'm sorry if I offended you. Please don't hate me!
Bob

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Hate you??? Never. That hate thing is something to be avoided.

Agreed, I could have contacted each of them one on one but it there have been so many of them doing the same thing lately that I wanted to get everyone's attention at the same time. Saves time, work, and phone bills. Some disagreed with the methods but I think the point got across. It wasn't accusatory or meant to be inflammatory, just a "hey, listen up" kind of thing.

Just goes to show ya how so many little things can interact together and have an effect on something bigger[X(]

Now, please don't hate me

canavanbob

My Feedback: (20)

You will get no hate from me. Lets move on.

Oilsands

I think we all agree that a business that does not satisfy customers in all areas, the customers will find another business to deal with.
I am fairly new to RC and so I have not spent or dealt with as many businesses that it sounds like other have, so I can not say that there is a problem at any certain company. But I would not name any business that happens to make a mistake once or even twice on any of my orders (not saying that you have done this), to make a point or inform people of this mistake. Now, if a company seems to continue to have the same problem, then I would look at letting people know (only after talking to the company directly about the problems encounted).

madman75

It seems T.O.M is getting what he has dished out before and doesn't like it.
IMHO!!

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Takin' the lumps as their delivered. Don't have to agree with them.

Oilsands

I am not sending any lumps to anyone, just giving my opinion as did T.O.M.