Goose's TWM 27% Ultimate assembly
05-11-2009, 02:52 PM
#76
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa,
ON, CANADA
Posts: 1,660
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Goose's TWM 27% Ultimate assembly
Ha! Felt like it for sure, but it will be back in the air this weekend.
Getting some help from experts, whist not good for my ego, is the smart thing to do...
The good weather is here and I need to fly!
Cheers
Goose
Getting some help from experts, whist not good for my ego, is the smart thing to do...
The good weather is here and I need to fly!
Cheers
Goose
05-30-2009, 07:06 PM
#77
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa,
ON, CANADA
Posts: 1,660
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Goose's TWM 27% Ultimate assembly
So I have spent plenty of time laying awake at night reliving the two flights I have had so far.
It seems quite nose heavy, falling in on turns, falling towards the canopy when doing 45 degree inverted uplines and the sink rate when powering off in approach.
I decided that the C fo G cant be right and today I built a decent balancing rig.
Works well, but the bad news is shown in the pictures. To set the bottom wing at zero degrees, the C of G is aft by 9mm.
The weight you see on the nose is whats required to get it to balance on the recommended position in addition to the 15oz I have already put in the nose. 29.75oz all up!... something is seriously not right.
Now the assumption here is that the bottom wing at zero incidence coincides with a zero datum. On closer inspection there is nothing on the plane that is parallel to the theoretical datum line.
Now of course all this could be just speculation and my scary flight was all my doing... biplanes are a different proposition for sure and require some interesting techniques... I just hope I can get them sorted before the end of my plane.
Food for thought....
Cheers
Goose
It seems quite nose heavy, falling in on turns, falling towards the canopy when doing 45 degree inverted uplines and the sink rate when powering off in approach.
I decided that the C fo G cant be right and today I built a decent balancing rig.
Works well, but the bad news is shown in the pictures. To set the bottom wing at zero degrees, the C of G is aft by 9mm.
The weight you see on the nose is whats required to get it to balance on the recommended position in addition to the 15oz I have already put in the nose. 29.75oz all up!... something is seriously not right.
Now the assumption here is that the bottom wing at zero incidence coincides with a zero datum. On closer inspection there is nothing on the plane that is parallel to the theoretical datum line.
Now of course all this could be just speculation and my scary flight was all my doing... biplanes are a different proposition for sure and require some interesting techniques... I just hope I can get them sorted before the end of my plane.
Food for thought....
Cheers
Goose
05-30-2009, 08:04 PM
#78
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: iola,
TX
Posts: 1,345
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Goose's TWM 27% Ultimate assembly
If I am not mistaken, when using the Venessa jig on a bipe you should run the rope around the bottom wing with the plane upright like you have it. That will change your current CG dramatically and possibly give you a better idea of where it is before any changes.</p>
</p></p>
05-30-2009, 08:18 PM
#79
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa,
ON, CANADA
Posts: 1,660
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Goose's TWM 27% Ultimate assembly
Oh yeah? Hmmm... thats a little weird but kinda makes sense when you look at it...
[edit] Now the plumb bob is 8mm aft of the balance point. Doesnt that mean its tail heavy?
Thanks a lot.
Goose</p>
05-30-2009, 09:00 PM
#80
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: iola,
TX
Posts: 1,345
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Goose's TWM 27% Ultimate assembly
Are you using a small level on the fuse like a string level? Or are you using the incidence meter on the lower wing to level the plane?
06-01-2009, 07:02 AM
#81
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa,
ON, CANADA
Posts: 1,660
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Goose's TWM 27% Ultimate assembly
Hi Flamin'...
Yes I was using the incidence meter on the bottom wing as my zero reference and perhaps thats where things are going astray...
It makes sence (in my head anyways *lol) that if I set everything up relative to the bottom wing, which is assumed to be 'zero' that I will have a nice straight flying plane.
It is worth noting that the stagger (fore and aft) between top and bottom wings does not allow the loop around the wings to touch the LE of the top wing and TE of the lower.I'm not sure what difference that makes but I may have to make the loops much bigger and try that.
Anyways, appreciate your input.
Cheers
Goose
Yes I was using the incidence meter on the bottom wing as my zero reference and perhaps thats where things are going astray...
It makes sence (in my head anyways *lol) that if I set everything up relative to the bottom wing, which is assumed to be 'zero' that I will have a nice straight flying plane.
It is worth noting that the stagger (fore and aft) between top and bottom wings does not allow the loop around the wings to touch the LE of the top wing and TE of the lower.I'm not sure what difference that makes but I may have to make the loops much bigger and try that.
Anyways, appreciate your input.
Cheers
Goose
06-09-2009, 05:32 PM
#83
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa,
ON, CANADA
Posts: 1,660
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Goose's TWM 27% Ultimate assembly
As you wish
Just so you know, I have leveled the bench in this picture so you have an accurate visual reference.
Finally back together tonight after needing a couple of nights surgery to get the tanks out after the fuel clunk got stuck forward when I dorked it.
Cheers
Goose
Just so you know, I have leveled the bench in this picture so you have an accurate visual reference.
Finally back together tonight after needing a couple of nights surgery to get the tanks out after the fuel clunk got stuck forward when I dorked it.
Cheers
Goose
06-10-2009, 07:03 AM
#84
Member
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: CaracasMiranda, VENEZUELA
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Goose's TWM 27% Ultimate assembly
Great. It looks like you CG is as per manual. It is a good point to start. I found it nose heavy at that setting but I think you should fly it this way and adjust it until it barely needs some down elevator while inverted. If you corrected the +1 incidence on your top wing, you should be all set. Laso remenber to use small deflections and lots of expo on ailerons and elevator for first flights. I use around 40% or more for expos. Good luck!!!
06-10-2009, 07:33 AM
#85
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa,
ON, CANADA
Posts: 1,660
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Goose's TWM 27% Ultimate assembly
Thanks Khan...
Thats pretty much the conclusion we had come to.
I'm hoping to get it to the field this weekend and get lots of small flights on it, gradually moving the C of G until it feels right.
Then its a case of logging lots of hours
Cheers!
Goose
Thats pretty much the conclusion we had come to.
I'm hoping to get it to the field this weekend and get lots of small flights on it, gradually moving the C of G until it feels right.
Then its a case of logging lots of hours
Cheers!
Goose
06-15-2009, 10:40 AM
#86
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa,
ON, CANADA
Posts: 1,660
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Goose's TWM 27% Ultimate assembly
So... I got it all fixed up for the weekend and Scott flew it.
He expertly managed to fly it and get it down in one piece albeit with the following comments:
<ul>[*]It is a lot nose heavy.[*]It is very roll sensitive.[*]It destabilizes quickly (roll) when slowing down.[*]It doesn't like to slow down.[/list]Most of this is explained by the nose heavy condition, and the roll sensitivity by my servo horns being long and long on the ailerons.
The next plan was for me to fly it and Scott to land it. I would call the flight successful in that it flies pretty well, doing basic manouvers, rolls, stall turns, tail slide etc...
I began investigating landing approaches and setup perhaps 4 or 5 with a go-around each time. On the last one, I experienced the same thing as last time i dorked it and was powering up and feeding in elevator when it pancaked in on the end of the runway.
I calmly checked my sticks and was at 1/2 throttle and near full up elevator when it went in. Others confirmed the attitude didn't change, it didn't stall, and I wasn't in a harrier condition... in fact I don't think i could get it into that stalled condition easily at all.
End result, splayed and ripped the gear out, broke another prop,bent an exhaust and general damage to the underside.
I'm running out of patience and money for this plane and have resigned it to being an experiment. I will fix it up and some stage and put it on a serious diet by taking all the unecessary stuff out of it to get the wing loading down.
It is the same weight/wing area as the Wildhare Ultimate which is discontinued... same reasons?
The wing loading works out to be 29.6oz per square foot and is 3.25lbs heavier than the manual states for the heavy end of the scale.
I will strip it down as far as it will go and fly it to see what happens and perhaps mend my bruised ego.
In the meantime I found a replacement for my dorked Fliton Edge that will get me through summer.
Cheers
Goose
<br type="_moz" />
He expertly managed to fly it and get it down in one piece albeit with the following comments:
<ul>[*]It is a lot nose heavy.[*]It is very roll sensitive.[*]It destabilizes quickly (roll) when slowing down.[*]It doesn't like to slow down.[/list]Most of this is explained by the nose heavy condition, and the roll sensitivity by my servo horns being long and long on the ailerons.
The next plan was for me to fly it and Scott to land it. I would call the flight successful in that it flies pretty well, doing basic manouvers, rolls, stall turns, tail slide etc...
I began investigating landing approaches and setup perhaps 4 or 5 with a go-around each time. On the last one, I experienced the same thing as last time i dorked it and was powering up and feeding in elevator when it pancaked in on the end of the runway.
I calmly checked my sticks and was at 1/2 throttle and near full up elevator when it went in. Others confirmed the attitude didn't change, it didn't stall, and I wasn't in a harrier condition... in fact I don't think i could get it into that stalled condition easily at all.
End result, splayed and ripped the gear out, broke another prop,bent an exhaust and general damage to the underside.
I'm running out of patience and money for this plane and have resigned it to being an experiment. I will fix it up and some stage and put it on a serious diet by taking all the unecessary stuff out of it to get the wing loading down.
It is the same weight/wing area as the Wildhare Ultimate which is discontinued... same reasons?
The wing loading works out to be 29.6oz per square foot and is 3.25lbs heavier than the manual states for the heavy end of the scale.
I will strip it down as far as it will go and fly it to see what happens and perhaps mend my bruised ego.
In the meantime I found a replacement for my dorked Fliton Edge that will get me through summer.
Cheers
Goose
<br type="_moz" />
06-15-2009, 01:39 PM
#88
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa,
ON, CANADA
Posts: 1,660
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Goose's TWM 27% Ultimate assembly
Thanks MrBigg...
Lets hope the diet and resulting flight test is finished before the plane!
Two dorkings pretty much convinces me the manuals suggested C of G is way off.
I seem to be hell-bent on its destruction.
Cheers
Goose
Lets hope the diet and resulting flight test is finished before the plane!
Two dorkings pretty much convinces me the manuals suggested C of G is way off.
I seem to be hell-bent on its destruction.
Cheers
Goose
06-15-2009, 05:44 PM
#89
RE: Goose's TWM 27% Ultimate assembly
I think the manual is way off too. I'd move the CG back, back off the aileron travel, make sure I have plenty of elevator travel, and add more expo to the ailerons and elevators. I run about 80% on my ailerons. Ultimates are very touchy in roll as you've found out. One you get her set up, it'll be a really nice plane. I wouldn't even worry about your smoke system weight. Ultimates are my favorite type of plane and fly really smooth on low rates and cut loose on high. They are so smooth, I'm going to train my son on the Goldberg Ultimate here shortly.
06-16-2009, 07:11 AM
#90
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa,
ON, CANADA
Posts: 1,660
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Goose's TWM 27% Ultimate assembly
Hey Mr Bigg...
Thanks for that.
Your comments stopped me hammering that last nail in the coffin... Ok, maybe one more try...
Off to the Giant scale rally in Hamburg for the rest of the week, so will fix it up when i get back...
Cheers
Goose
Thanks for that.
Your comments stopped me hammering that last nail in the coffin... Ok, maybe one more try...
Off to the Giant scale rally in Hamburg for the rest of the week, so will fix it up when i get back...
Cheers
Goose
10-20-2009, 07:02 AM
#93
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: JoensuuPyhäselkä, FINLAND
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Goose's TWM 27% Ultimate assembly
Hi!
I have this plane now flying 2 years now.
Engine is Saito 300tl And i love those sounds, and the Saito is heavy so i dont need death wheigt in the nose.
Prop is now 23X8 Meijlick
Servos are Futaba 3010 ailerons and elevator, Thortle is a standart Futaba and the rudder servo is Bluebird 630mg.
Batterys are two 2200mAh 5cell nimh whit Powerbox Evolution.
Smoke system Sullivan skywriter whit own 4cell 1000mAh battery.
Here is a link building threat in Finnish forum. http://www.lennokit.net/showthread.php?t=36921
I reinforsed nose whit fiberclass.
Flying weight is 8430g!!!
I love to fly this plane......
Here it some flyin in our field.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiU4koe_IZo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEV6WajyXPY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG3nmbFO-aE
I have this plane now flying 2 years now.
Engine is Saito 300tl And i love those sounds, and the Saito is heavy so i dont need death wheigt in the nose.
Prop is now 23X8 Meijlick
Servos are Futaba 3010 ailerons and elevator, Thortle is a standart Futaba and the rudder servo is Bluebird 630mg.
Batterys are two 2200mAh 5cell nimh whit Powerbox Evolution.
Smoke system Sullivan skywriter whit own 4cell 1000mAh battery.
Here is a link building threat in Finnish forum. http://www.lennokit.net/showthread.php?t=36921
I reinforsed nose whit fiberclass.
Flying weight is 8430g!!!
I love to fly this plane......
Here it some flyin in our field.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiU4koe_IZo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEV6WajyXPY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG3nmbFO-aE
10-20-2009, 07:42 AM
#94
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Ottawa,
ON, CANADA
Posts: 1,660
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Goose's TWM 27% Ultimate assembly
Hi Hegetus...
Thanks for all that, great stuff.
I was very close to trashing this plane after the second crash on flight 4.
I could not slow it down to land at all and at 1/3rd throttle it fell out of the sky ripping off the landing gear and breaking the bottom wing tube assembly.
The C of G is wildly out and I removed 16oz of lead, totally ignoring the manufacturers recommendation and just flew it. Guess what... it flew great!
I moved the main battery pack back even further and now have it flying exactly as I want.
The landing gear plate assembly is very weak and after repairing it twice, even the greasiest landings would result in failure.
I built an aluminium bracket with angles to support the gear and bolted it between F1 and F2... it has been rock solid since.
I have put 4 gallons of gas through the plane this season and have loved it. Plenty of power with the DL50, super good fun with smoke on (Sullivan) and progressed my flying ability substantially.
I did suffer a dead stick (first time ever with this setup) due to the cold weather I think that resulted in damage. Takeoff, vertical climb, 100' and it quit. It doesnt glide at all so after the tailslide, I dove it at the ground and attempted a flair.
Not too bad, will have it ready for next season.
All in all I am very happy with the final product, but it did take a lot of work to turn it into something that flew well and was fun to fly.
Such is life with cheap planes.
Cheers
Goose
[link=http://www.goosesworld.com/aircraft/content/2009stetsongiant/album/slides/img_7028.html]Pic1[/link]
[link=http://www.goosesworld.com/aircraft/content/2009stetsongiant/album/slides/img_7054.html]Pic2[/link]
[link=http://www.goosesworld.com/aircraft/content/2009kingston/album/slides/img_6312.html]Pic3[/link]
Thanks for all that, great stuff.
I was very close to trashing this plane after the second crash on flight 4.
I could not slow it down to land at all and at 1/3rd throttle it fell out of the sky ripping off the landing gear and breaking the bottom wing tube assembly.
The C of G is wildly out and I removed 16oz of lead, totally ignoring the manufacturers recommendation and just flew it. Guess what... it flew great!
I moved the main battery pack back even further and now have it flying exactly as I want.
The landing gear plate assembly is very weak and after repairing it twice, even the greasiest landings would result in failure.
I built an aluminium bracket with angles to support the gear and bolted it between F1 and F2... it has been rock solid since.
I have put 4 gallons of gas through the plane this season and have loved it. Plenty of power with the DL50, super good fun with smoke on (Sullivan) and progressed my flying ability substantially.
I did suffer a dead stick (first time ever with this setup) due to the cold weather I think that resulted in damage. Takeoff, vertical climb, 100' and it quit. It doesnt glide at all so after the tailslide, I dove it at the ground and attempted a flair.
Not too bad, will have it ready for next season.
All in all I am very happy with the final product, but it did take a lot of work to turn it into something that flew well and was fun to fly.
Such is life with cheap planes.
Cheers
Goose
[link=http://www.goosesworld.com/aircraft/content/2009stetsongiant/album/slides/img_7028.html]Pic1[/link]
[link=http://www.goosesworld.com/aircraft/content/2009stetsongiant/album/slides/img_7054.html]Pic2[/link]
[link=http://www.goosesworld.com/aircraft/content/2009kingston/album/slides/img_6312.html]Pic3[/link]
