inverted harriers
02-17-2010, 11:00 AM
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inverted harriers
I'm still confused why everyone says inverted harriers are by far more stable than upright when every plane I've owned was just the opposite??? In particular, the Double Vision I had was awesome in upright harriers, locked in so easy, could fly all day with the tail wheel in the dirt. When I tried inverted harriers, it wanted to roll out, very hard to handle and every plane I've flown proved to be harder inverted, though some were more stable than others. My 33% TTOC Yak is the best so far for me and I've flown EF 30% Yak and from what I could tell in a couple flights, it was better than most but still harder than upright. I know about the left rudder needed to compensate for thrust line, if I give it right rudder, most of my planes will go into a spin immediately when in inverted harrier. I'm not the only one at my field that has experienced this, we have several accomplished 3-D'ers here and you seldom see inverted harriers, specially DOD where they all can huck it proper(me included), but none will go inverted DOD. I was hoping someone who can drag the rudder on the deck or at least touch it every now and then can enlighten me on this?
02-17-2010, 12:28 PM
#2
RE: inverted harriers
Some planes are better at inverted because the rudder is getting more clean air which makes them stable. In fact the most stable plane I have seen in an inverted harrier has always been a Cap. The have some dihedral built into them which when inverted shoves the air to the fuselage and enhancing stability. My 40% Carden Cap is a dream to harrier inverted but then it's an IMAC plane that has been trimmed to the hilt.
Also a plane that is unstable in inverted harriers is most likely having engine thrust issues as well or you are not counteracting the engine torque with rudder and stopping the roll the rudder causes with aileron, in other words, cross controlling the flight path
Also a plane that is unstable in inverted harriers is most likely having engine thrust issues as well or you are not counteracting the engine torque with rudder and stopping the roll the rudder causes with aileron, in other words, cross controlling the flight path
02-17-2010, 01:12 PM
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RE: inverted harriers
The people you fly with probably don't want to do inverted harriers because they can't get a grip on reverse inputs. Takes a lot of practice! Got to say they are easier once you get the hang of it. Don't know why, don't Really care. About the type of plane, most will do them well. Although bubbagates has a good point. My CAP's are best at it. Lived in Pa. and had limited flying time, here we fly all year, 5 X a week. Get a lot of practice. Really helps. Keep at it!
02-17-2010, 02:48 PM
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RE: inverted harriers
Practice is the key. I always thought the plane was more stable upright until I got comfortable with the sticks inverted. Now I would have to say it's just as easy to do an inverted harrier as upright. If you go burn 10-15 gallons with your plane inverted and you'll get it.
02-17-2010, 03:19 PM
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RE: inverted harriers
Yep, that's for sure with most 3-D stuff. So some have felt like I do. I will practice with the planes that do it best, try to tweak the ones that are tougher so maybe I can figure out what can make them more stable. I know my 30% SD Yak has too much right thrust and I could move CG up a bit to see if it helps. My new Double Vision will be most interesting because my first one was very difficult with inverted harriers. But I added extra right and up-thrust to the first, I'm not doing that until I see how it flys first, it has factory right thrust and no up.
02-17-2010, 03:50 PM
#6
RE: inverted harriers
This is a huge goal of mine. I've been practicing on my Aerofly Pro Deluxe but none of the planes seem to do well at any type of harrier. Upright they either want to go into the ground or it pulls up into a hover. Inverted they just sort of snap out. Anywho, I want to perfect these. Otherwise it remains a weakness. And from experience, weaknesses at any attitude = more likely of a crash.....or less likely of a recovery. Either way it ain't good. 
If I can do rolling harriers, I can do inverted harriers. Just like Charles said, it just takes lots of gas burned and hard work.
If I can do rolling harriers, I can do inverted harriers. Just like Charles said, it just takes lots of gas burned and hard work.
02-17-2010, 05:53 PM
#7
RE: inverted harriers
One thing we do in IMAC is add a few more degrees of down elevator than up elevator, that way down feels the same as up. I know you are probably at max throw at full stick deflection, what about in between full stick and center stick. In any harrier you are not likely to be at full deflection anyway as the pitch is a balancing act between the elevator and throttle.
You can also set your expo differently for the down direction so that full throw comes in later, say past the point where you normally have the sticks for the harrier
Also check to make sure that the elevators are moving exactly at the same time going both up or down. That is one of the most common things when I help people trim out planes. They get the movement perfect in the up direction but when you check the down direction, one moves a bit faster than the other, which will certainly cause a snap in a harrier once the elevator gets to that point where one has actually moved a tad bit further because it is actually moving faster
The trick with 3D is the same as IMAC, get the plane trimmed properly to take as much work off the pilot as possible and both types of flying become loads easier
Click this link to get the most current article by Peter Goldsmith. For 3D you can probably ignore most of the mixing setups
http://www.bubbagates.net/page8/file...20trimming.pdf
You can also set your expo differently for the down direction so that full throw comes in later, say past the point where you normally have the sticks for the harrier
Also check to make sure that the elevators are moving exactly at the same time going both up or down. That is one of the most common things when I help people trim out planes. They get the movement perfect in the up direction but when you check the down direction, one moves a bit faster than the other, which will certainly cause a snap in a harrier once the elevator gets to that point where one has actually moved a tad bit further because it is actually moving faster
The trick with 3D is the same as IMAC, get the plane trimmed properly to take as much work off the pilot as possible and both types of flying become loads easier
Click this link to get the most current article by Peter Goldsmith. For 3D you can probably ignore most of the mixing setups
http://www.bubbagates.net/page8/file...20trimming.pdf
02-17-2010, 09:27 PM
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RE: inverted harriers
One trick to getting used to inverted harriers is getting comfortable with crossing the sticks, when you turn or even make corrections remeber the rudder is opposite so if you're not crossing the sticks you'll have some problems. I love inverted harriers and when done right they lock in much better, usually with no wing rock. I always make all my corrections with both aileron and rudder at the same time. Will you be at the WRAM show? If you are going stop by the Horizon Hobby booth and look for me, I'll be working at the booth Friday and Saturday, I think we may have a simulator set up at the booth, if not maybe someone else will, I'll be happy to show you a couple tricks that will make it much easier.
Lee
Lee
02-18-2010, 09:42 AM
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RE: inverted harriers
My 3-D flying buddy is going, Bob Austino, I'll tell him about the Horizon booth, he's been practicing this too. I think part of my problem is the throttle setting, when inverted, I have to have it set lower, closer to a stall. I think this is because of my CG, it will climb out if I use more throttle or elevator for that matter. My first gassers had the CG way back like my fun fly planes, but the newer ones have it more on center, they are the ones that do it best. Think that has a lot to do with it??
02-18-2010, 10:56 AM
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RE: inverted harriers
The big challenge for me are just the two changes that are required while inverted: 1) pushing of the elevator stick and 2) The reverse rudder for crossing the sticks. Then of course there's getting used to how different it handles inverted. This all needs lots of practice until it's burned into my brain until I don't have to think about it. Once that's done, it'll all fun. Until then it's a bit of work...and well worth the trouble IMO.
I think the other tip not mentioned here (that cjcycles told me) is that it takes a bit of constant left rudder to go straight. This could be the p-factor of the engine torque. Again with enough practice you would figure this out and not even think about it (until somebody asks how you do it).
I think the other tip not mentioned here (that cjcycles told me) is that it takes a bit of constant left rudder to go straight. This could be the p-factor of the engine torque. Again with enough practice you would figure this out and not even think about it (until somebody asks how you do it).
02-18-2010, 11:09 AM
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RE: inverted harriers
The simulator idea is a good way to practice getting it right. I noticed that a few of you are from up north and the weather must be keeping you from flying as much as you would like. I've tried a simulator a few years ago and it did help some. Just not realistic enough for me. Maybe they have improved the simulators over the last few years. Best advice I can give is practice and more practice! Keep it high till you feel confident enough to get close to the ground.
02-18-2010, 01:52 PM
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RE: inverted harriers
ORIGINAL: bubbagates
One thing we do in IMAC is add a few more degrees of down elevator than up elevator, that way down feels the same as up. I know you are probably at max throw at full stick deflection, what about in between full stick and center stick. In any harrier you are not likely to be at full deflection anyway as the pitch is a balancing act between the elevator and throttle.
You can also set your expo differently for the down direction so that full throw comes in later, say past the point where you normally have the sticks for the harrier
Also check to make sure that the elevators are moving exactly at the same time going both up or down. That is one of the most common things when I help people trim out planes. They get the movement perfect in the up direction but when you check the down direction, one moves a bit faster than the other, which will certainly cause a snap in a harrier once the elevator gets to that point where one has actually moved a tad bit further because it is actually moving faster
The trick with 3D is the same as IMAC, get the plane trimmed properly to take as much work off the pilot as possible and both types of flying become loads easier
Click this link to get the most current article by Peter Goldsmith. For 3D you can probably ignore most of the mixing setups
http://www.bubbagates.net/page8/file...20trimming.pdf
One thing we do in IMAC is add a few more degrees of down elevator than up elevator, that way down feels the same as up. I know you are probably at max throw at full stick deflection, what about in between full stick and center stick. In any harrier you are not likely to be at full deflection anyway as the pitch is a balancing act between the elevator and throttle.
You can also set your expo differently for the down direction so that full throw comes in later, say past the point where you normally have the sticks for the harrier
Also check to make sure that the elevators are moving exactly at the same time going both up or down. That is one of the most common things when I help people trim out planes. They get the movement perfect in the up direction but when you check the down direction, one moves a bit faster than the other, which will certainly cause a snap in a harrier once the elevator gets to that point where one has actually moved a tad bit further because it is actually moving faster
The trick with 3D is the same as IMAC, get the plane trimmed properly to take as much work off the pilot as possible and both types of flying become loads easier
Click this link to get the most current article by Peter Goldsmith. For 3D you can probably ignore most of the mixing setups
http://www.bubbagates.net/page8/file...20trimming.pdf
Good points Bubba.
I use the #2 position on 9303 flight mode for my Harrier (upright and inverted).. Less down elevator throw, and more expo on the rudder and ailerons... this helps prevent over 'steering' when turning.
02-18-2010, 02:00 PM
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RE: inverted harriers
ORIGINAL: MIXMASTER
My 3-D flying buddy is going, Bob Austino, I'll tell him about the Horizon booth, he's been practicing this too. I think part of my problem is the throttle setting, when inverted, I have to have it set lower, closer to a stall. I think this is because of my CG, it will climb out if I use more throttle or elevator for that matter. My first gassers had the CG way back like my fun fly planes, but the newer ones have it more on center, they are the ones that do it best. Think that has a lot to do with it??
My 3-D flying buddy is going, Bob Austino, I'll tell him about the Horizon booth, he's been practicing this too. I think part of my problem is the throttle setting, when inverted, I have to have it set lower, closer to a stall. I think this is because of my CG, it will climb out if I use more throttle or elevator for that matter. My first gassers had the CG way back like my fun fly planes, but the newer ones have it more on center, they are the ones that do it best. Think that has a lot to do with it??
Yeah, CG to far aft makes my Harriers balloon with too much throttle and elevator. On my 33% edge, (aft CG for tumbling) I can pulse the throttle more, and this seems to stabilize any ballooning upright, and seems to allow the Edge to steer better inverted.
02-18-2010, 02:02 PM
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RE: inverted harriers
Same here, have to hold a bit of left rudder all the time, no problem pushing up elev for me, been flying inverted a lot. I'm not even trying to turn much yet, hell ,it will do that by itself if I let off left rudder! I made this post because I can harrier my ***** off upright all day long with all my planes, I can turn in figure 8's if I want(cross coupling ail & rudder), so why is it harder when everyone says inverted is easier?? Does everyone start with inverted harriers first???!!!
02-18-2010, 02:07 PM
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RE: inverted harriers
Upright is easier for me, but my planes perform better inverted. I think its the design of my models (2 Pilot RC yaks, 2 Extra 330s, 2 Extra 260s, and a Edge).
02-18-2010, 02:49 PM
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RE: inverted harriers
The last 2 posts are more in-line with my experience & thinking. You would think everyone would learn harriers upright first, then have to re-learn the difference in inputs when inverted, which by nature would make inverted a little harder just because of the different controls and after being comfortable upright, inverted again would seem more difficult. Good stuff though, makes me think it out.
02-18-2010, 03:15 PM
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RE: inverted harriers
Mixmaster,
A little off topic.
Did your TOC Yak come pre-hinged? and did you order it from Chief?
My buddy needs a plane that can be assembled pretty quick for next weekend. His sd yak was damaged (well destroyed) when the snow collapsed his garage.
A little off topic.
Did your TOC Yak come pre-hinged? and did you order it from Chief?
My buddy needs a plane that can be assembled pretty quick for next weekend. His sd yak was damaged (well destroyed) when the snow collapsed his garage.
02-24-2010, 11:33 AM
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RE: inverted harriers
So the main reply is "the rudder is in cleaner air while inverted "and "the plane handles better while inverted". Guess we have to break it down to "what planes & engines" to get a better idea of why inverted harriers are "supposed" easier. I fly the Chip Hyde Double Vision 50cc/DA50, TTOC Yak 30%/DA50 and TTOC Yak 33%/3W80i. All my planes have inverted single cylinder engines, and early on I always mounted the batteries below the fuse center-line, some on the very bottom. Could this be whats making inverted harriers harder for me? I'm thinking with more weight hanging low, upright harriers are stabilized by that weight, if the plane banks a bit, the weight pulls(rolls) the fuse back to level. When inverted, keeping that weight on top center is critical, a little bank and now that weight is passed centerline and trys to roll the plane over. Does this make sense to anyone else.
BTW, the rudder being in cleaner air(inverted harrier) does make sense to me but I think there must be a lot more to it than just that.
BTW, the rudder being in cleaner air(inverted harrier) does make sense to me but I think there must be a lot more to it than just that.
