powerchute50

With my growing interest in electric flying I thought about looking into converting a .40 trainer to electric as a learning project. What I learned is this (Hobby-Lobby prices).

Electric:

Axi 2826/12 Outrunner motor $119.90
Jeti Advance 40 ESC $109.00
11.1v 4200 Lithium Poly pack $139.90
Charger for Lithium pack $129.00
(second battery pack) $139.00
Total $635.90

Gas:

.46 Vmax pro glow engine $ 79.90
Glow fuel tank and fuel lines $ 9.95
Engine Mount $ 4.95
Throttle servo $16.95
1 gallon glow fuel (local price) $ 19.95
Total $131.70

I can fly a long time on that gallon of fuel, compared to charging batteries every 10-15 minutes.

Small electics are the greatest thing for convenience and fun, but as soon as you start to get up into larger models, the cost for electric power goes up fast. I think I will be keeping my .40 engines for a while yet.

Don
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Grumpy old gas guy

gwright

Totally correct, electric power cost more,.. but with everything in life, you have to pay more to get the higher performance

Tripower455

My Feedback: (2)

You are right about the cost/benefit for the larger ones. It appears that in anything much larger than a .20 sized model, that the only real benefit from electrics are the lack of noise, which, in this day and age might mean the difference between flying and not flying for some people!

IMHO, Where the electrics shine are in the smaller models. Not too expensive once you have the batteries and charger, and they open up a new world of easily accessible flying sites!

I am a 25 year veteran of glow power, and have recenty joined the ranks of Park Flyers. I am amazed at how this once esoteric side of the hobby has evolved into a viable alternative to glow.

ELTIGRE

there are more advantages than just "quiet" -reliability is one of them . once your power package is set up its basicly no maintenance , consistent run times. electric rarely fails to start , flexible (gear drives being just part of that) less field support equipment, very clean, planes last a LONG time due to lack of vibration. electric costs amortize over time . those who disagree with that usually have never flow electric & tend to discount some of the real pluses.. .
if your looking at a trainer , consider the Super star EP . theres a web thread devoted to this plane & some fairly inexpensive mods to get it to fly A LOT longer.don't just compare the super big stuff with the mega motors. some stuff can fly fairly inexpensively if you shop around .

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

When you compare a high-end electric setup with a budget-priced Chinese 2-stroke glow engine, the sticker shock is certainly... shocking.

However, when avid glow fliers start to step up into the higher end engines and gear, as they tend to do, the price difference becomes much less impressive. Instead of a $70 VMAX engine, put a $250 YS .63 in that price quote... Evens up the odds a bit, doesn't it? Now the motor/esc combo is actually a bit less expensive than the engine.

One gallon of fuel will get you... Let's say 16 flights on a .46 glow. One well-cared-for battery pack... Let's say it only lasts 100 flights. That's $125 worth of fuel at $20 a gallon.

Electric will still be more expensive yes, but as you said, it's a learning project, and there are distinct advantages you can't put a price on. As more people take on these learning projects, demand will drive prices down.

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

When you compare a high-end electric setup with a budget-priced Chinese 2-stroke glow engine, the sticker shock is certainly... shocking.

However, when avid glow fliers start to step up into the higher end engines and gear, as they tend to do, the price difference becomes much less impressive. Instead of a $70 VMAX engine, put a $250 YS .63 in that price quote... Evens up the odds a bit, doesn't it? Now the motor/esc combo is actually a bit less expensive than the engine.

One gallon of fuel will get you... Let's say 16 flights on a .46 glow. One well-cared-for battery pack... Let's say it only lasts 100 flights. That's $125 worth of fuel at $20 a gallon.

Electric will still be more expensive yes, but as you said, it's a learning project, and there are distinct advantages you can't put a price on. As more people take on these learning projects, demand will drive prices down.

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

Higher performance? Naw, it's just a different power source.



While I am just delving into the electric arena, I don't think an AXI is considered high-end, maybe an actro or hacker. A better comparison (IMO), which I used, is and "average" engine, like and Irvine .53 or OS .50 to an AXI. Even so, the larger electric setups cost more initially, cost more per flight (unless you fly a whole lot), and run a higher risk of dollar loss if using the new Li-po and they get damaged in a wreck. That is the other big cost factor, as pointed out by Matt above. One battery pack at $125 (which from what I have found, seems low for the larger size models), but you need 3 or 4 packs to be able to fly a typcial several hour session field. If you spend the whole day out there, say on a saturday, then you will likely need multiple chargers to keep up.

But, I like I said, I am just delving into the electrics, because - as has mentioned here- there appears to be many benefits. And heck, it's another aspect of the hobby!

mvigod

One cost rarely shown is the cost of electricity to charge the packs. Assuming there is a cost whether you charge from home or your car (which takes gas to run the alternator to charge the battery) what is the approximate cost per amp hour to charge a pack? If you had a 6amp pack and took 3 flights to completion that is about 20amps per day. at typical rates what does 20 amps of juice cost from the electric company?

powerchute50

Sure, but why would I do that? My "cheap Chinese" Vmax is a great engine for training and just goofing around. I could install a Saito 2 cyl or an OS 4 cyl for many thousands of dollars and really get the price up. I think the point of my comparison is the equipment that would fly that particular plane with comparable performance to a .46 glow engine, and the price for electric is many times higher in terms of that comparison.

Not that your point isn't valid in general. This is an expensive hobby, especially as you get into the larger models. Gas engines are expensive, and so are 4 stroke and multi-cylinder engines. You could easily exceed the cost of an electric setup if you put in expensive engines, electric starters, on board glow controllers, turbines and so on. The " hole in the air into which you throw money" is very true for us RC modellers.

Don
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Grumpy old gas guy

Matt Kirsch

My Feedback: (21)

You tell me why... It seems to be inevitable that as glow fliers progress through the hobby, their taste in engines gets more and more expensive. Sure, it starts out with the cheap Chinese rigs, but then they try an OS, and never look back. From there, its OS and Saito 4-strokes... Then they see their first YS at the field. That look, sound, and performance is a "must have," despite the fact that they cost twice as much as an OS or Saito of the same displacement.

Plus, it's fun to splurge once in a while.

H.Dale

My Feedback: (3)

Tell me about it!!!

I just purchased the equipment to convert a .40 size 3D airplane to electric. $560!!! I was running a YS63 on the plane which was around $250 new.

Look at it this way. The motor, gearbox and speed control are about what you would pay for a good four stroke engine. I paid around $240 for those. The batteries (fuel) were $320.

Time will tell if the trade off is worth it, but electrics sure are cleaner and more reliable.

Hal

Tripower455

My Feedback: (2)

Wow, I hope I didn't offend anybody!

I've had R/C on the back burner for the last few years. When the job, house kids etc took over from R/C back in the late '80's, electrics were still a huge trade off. You had a choice of small, fast and maneuverable for about 3 minutes or slightly larger powered gliders for about 15 minutes. I was always pretty much a .60 sized kind of guy.

I am absolutely sold on electrics for smaller birds. The benefits are multiple. I can put the plane on my leather seats in the car AFTER a day of flying, fly at the local schoolyard. I guess it's more reliable, but I've never really had that many issues with quality glow stuff either. I have only owned one of newer Chinese engines, a Royal .45 (OS knockoff) and it was a great running little engine. The electircs are certainly a lot less fuss at the field.


What would it cost in electric to equal the power of something like a Rossi .61 in a pattern plane, (Phoenix 8 or Dirty Birdy etc.) or equal a .90 2 stroke in one of the TF Warbirds? From what little I can find, it appears that the batteries are what will kill you $$ wise. I realize that as long as you take care of them, they will last a long time, but you still have to buy them all at once. You also have to charge the things.

It's all a trade off, and I guess it comes down to which trade offs are most important to you.


BTW, Thanks for a great forum! I am amazed at how different the electric stuff is from glow. It's like a completely different hobby!

powerchute50

Hey, us gas guys aren't the only ones who move up. First there are the little foamy park flyers, then you have to have warbird, then a 3 D package, then a multiengine. Of course you need Lithium cells for longer flights and Bam! off to the bank for that second mortgage.

Electric flyers are just as bad as us gas guys. And then there is the ultimate, guys like me who love gas but are really getting interested in electric flying. Bam! off for the third mortgage.

Don
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Grumpy (and broke) old gas guy

gwright

Well,.. you're right, in the example above, a cheapie outrunner isn't going to be higher performance.However, I've made the conversion to electric fully (don't even own a fuel pump or ni-starter anymore) and there isn't a plane at any local field that matches my stuff in performance in each size with glow,.. from my little "40 size" planes like my E3D's, up to my XL's at 90" span with full 3D performance, nor the identical Cermark 1/4 scale pitts that's flying on a Moki 2.10 instead of the C50 hacker setup I'm using in mine. Different strokes for different folks,.. eletric, glow, diesel,gas..they all work,.. and there's nothing wrong with either solution, just different price points and performance levels. Within each, yeas, you have a wide array, like an inexpensive axi or himax versus a hacker, or an OS FP versus an FX,.. but setup electric _can_ deliver higher performance (MUCH higher in some cases) than a glow setup.

[quote]ORIGINAL: P-51B

Higher performance? Naw, it's just a different power source.

ton-e

Good points in my thinking about the reliabillity and how many times i've seen glow just not start or not run well or be too lean or too rich etc...
Electric is quiet. Can't say enough about that.

with an electric system;
I NEVER have to put my hand near a spinning prop to mess with needle valves.
I Never have to carry a gallon of fuel in my trunk.
I Never have to clean my plane after flying.
I have never seen any electric flyer get someone to hold their plane vertically to run up the motor.
There is no such thing as a 'chicken stick' in electric.
My balsa never gets Soaked through with fuel.
No smoke.
No solidified fuel blocking the lines.
Charging electricity from my car battery can be considered free because the alternator will charge the battery while i drive home.
neither I nor my planes/car/home smell like glow fuel.

at my field there are tons of conversions, here are a few..
My own .46 sized U-Can-Do-3D
80" Sig Kadet Senior
40 sized Sukhoi
40 sized Rascal
40 sized Funtana
60 sized Graupner Extra 330
68" ExtremeFlightRC YAK 54
Tower Kaos or uproar or something like that

I am certain i am forgetting some. We also have a platoon of Banchees and GWMP E3Ds..
The guys that own these planes are very happy with their choice to fly electric.
I agree that glow is cheaper at the .40 size and up. But cheaper isn't everything to most flyers.

I watched and taped Gary flying his stuff at SEFF last year, and there is NO glow equivalent to his E3DXL for capability and low wing loading.
Those flights were eye opening. Thanks, Gary.

Tony

powerchute50

At our club everyone who has tried electric has ended up throwing it in the closet. We don't have a single electric flyer. Same with several other clubs we do events with. The problem is knowledge, as well as expense. I have complained about this in another forum, but how the heck do you know what to put in your conversion? The motor designations don't make any sense (what does 2826/12 mean anyway?), and there is precious little info on what kind of setup would work in a given size and weight of plane. Dealers and hobby store owners don't have a clue. Thus my learning exercise at the beginning of this forum.

If people would post successful conversion details we might have a place to start. Could you list the motor/ESC/battery setup for some of the conversions that you mentioned? I know what those planes would require in gas (we have most of them), it would be great to get a feel for the electric equivalent.

Don
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Grumpy old gas guy

Greg Covey

Don,

You are indeed a grumpy old gas guy!

Fortunately, I have befriended many R/Cers like you including a great bunch of Canadians across the border.

The resounding complaints that I hear from them are the same ones that you speak of in this thread. Since I can't help out on the price issue, perhaps I can offer some suggestions on the issues of confusion and the electric learning process.

Years ago, the local clubs in my area did not have any electric flyers until I came along. All I flew was electric and they treated me with cautious respect. At the most, I would see and occasional Zagi wing or 3-channel Speed 400 trainer. This is not a bad place to start. If you first succeed in making a smaller electric plane outperform anything that a smaller glow-powered plane can do, you are well on your way to converting larger planes to electric power.

Another approach is to copy an existing conversion verbatim. I still recommend starting with a smaller electric project initially. Please check out my [link=http://www.gregcovey.com/rc.htm]Web Hangar[/link] and report back if you find less than satisfactory details on my conversions.

RC Universe has many conversion articles published in the magazine section as does the E-Zone (RC Groups). I would recommend reading some of them for examples.

Finally, if you have a specific project in mind and want precise suggestions for a conversion, please start your own thread in this forum on it and you will not only find that many knowledgeable folks will come to help, but, you may actually loose some grumpiness in the process.

Good luck!

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

This is a good point. I actually thought about this when making my recent decision to try the electric stuff. After adding up all the other electric stuff, I didn't bother doing this calculation, as I was already in sticker shock and figured at that point it didn't matter much.

Greg Covey

Actually, I don't think it is such a good point.

The cost of electricty from your wall outlet is only about $0.07 per killo-watt hour.

A 12v charger can run for 24 hours at 10amps (120 watts) and only cost you about a penny ($0.0084) per hour or 24 cents per day.

(120/1000 watts) * 7 cents/hr = $0.0084/hr.

powerchute50

Yes, thank you.

Thats because you get shocks from those electric guys when you shake hands with them.

Good stuff on your web site. Of course you are cheating since you are an electrical engineer. Most of us couldn't wire a lamp.

Good suggestion for a specific project. We all need to get experience with electrics. Good to start with what you know in gas, and get a feel for what the electric equivalent is.

Don
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Still grumpy old gas guy

Talon56

I think electric is more convent that gas, especially if you just starting out. You can fly in a lot more places and I think this is bringing more people into the sport. The small to medium size planes can be run on a nice system and you don't need to take out a second mortgage. But when you get into the .40 size and larger, to get any performance it's going to cost you. I was going to go electric in my Kadet Senior, but I got sticker shock! I figure I leave it on the shelf as it's not totally built and fly some smaller planes. I think the prices will come down as electrics evolve, then I can finish my Kadet. If they don't I'll go gas on it.
So in my opinion, even thought I like electric, I have to agree with the gas guys when it comes to larger planes, at least for now!!

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

Uh-oh, my power supply is a 30 amp, if I triple those numbers...I may break the bank!

Thanks for the numbers Greg.