Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

i have a fully synth fuel which is about 14% oil, i just had a ASP thats 10 flights old let go on the bearings, so i've sent it back, and got a new one. the place i got this engine wont warrenty any engines ran on this fuel and recomemded i got some cr&p and nasty type, which i wont do, 1 coz we cant get it here, 2 if we can its expensive, 3 its cr&p.
The other place i got engines will only warrenty my engines if i DO use this fuel and no other. his engines are Magnums, yep aka ASP.
So.. what im going to do is go down town and get some castor from the chemists ( is where i was told stocks it..) and add 2% into the 3/4 of a gallon i have left of the 14% oil...
soon im swapping to other fuel by the Magnum guy and thats 20%, but the other people wont warrenty there engines on this stuff either, so im forced to mix a bit for that one engine

How do i mix it? just pour it in and shake????

I HATE all this stuff about castor Vs synth, i wish someone would sort it out once and for all, after all, we dont use castor in cars or bikes. All my planes run on synth, and they all have nice oil streaks down the sides after a run and no sign of burnt oil, but the ASP went back ( fractured bearings dont = wrong fuel IMO ), and he said it was dry, ok, i have wrapped it in toilet roll, and put it down the carb, plug hole and exhaust to stop stuff getting in there, so it prob was dry, but its too much of a cop out to say your not using castor, no warrenty. if the neddle is tweeked propperly i dont see the problem.
i have 2 year old MVVS 40 that dosnt even know what castor is, and the brearings and other bits are in perfect condition, my irvine 36 lasted 4 years hard life, and my OS 25 came back to life when i took it off my first ever gallon of castor and onto synth.
hell, even my MDS 38 seams happy, I KNOW! i got THE good 1! lol 3rd replacement tho lol

Anyways, im off to town, lets see what you guys come up with on how to mix it by the time i get back

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

well, went down town, can only get medical castor, not first pressing
so i put the engine in, started it up on full synth, and ran it really rich first 2OZ tank, just to get it nice and oily.
did that again, i thought there should be more oil than that comming out on my finger at 1/4 throttle, but it woulnt run any richer.
After stopping it, i picked it up, LOADS! of oil came out from the muff, same look and feel as fresh car engine oil and slightly browner thats what we like, not bad for 14%
The instructions arnt too bad, not running full lean, not slobbering rich for too long, just the first tank or two to lube it, then lean it to starting to 2-stroke at 1/2 throttle 2 tanks, then full throttle same setting ( staying on 2 stoke now ) for 2 tanks, then tune it, but keep it fraction rich for first few tanks.
When its "ran in" it'll be set up for prophanging, its not going to be lean, but.. if i can find this castor i'll still bung a bit in jst to see what it does.
Its hanging up for a while, i'll go back for its 3rd and 4th runs soon

downunder-RCU

You have a fuel with 14% oil? I think you should say what brand it is so no one else will buy it...that's way too little oil even if it'd been all castor! Having said that, it wasn't the cause of the bearing failure. Bearings will operate quite OK on an extremely low percent of oil...trouble is the rest of the engine won't

You seemed to be pleased that you had lots of your 14% oil come out of the muffler after a slobbering rich run at 1/4 throttle. Well think about it..it was probably running twice as rich as it would with a correct setting so in effect you were using 28% oil.

As for mixing the castor, your way might work OK but I prefer to strap the can to one of the wheels on my car and go for a fast cruise on a twisty road...LOL...sorry, I couldn't resist

I don't really understand what castor has to do with cars or bikes unless you're thinking about the use of synthetic oils in them (like Mobil 1) but don't confuse a car synthetic with what we use in methanol fuels...they're entirely different.

Steve Collins

My Feedback: (8)

Aerosave / Aerosynth all synthetic oil is a superior lubricant for methanol based model airplane fuels and is available in the UK. That would be a far better addition to your fuel than that nasty castor stuff.

I wish we could get the Aerosave/Aerosynth here in the US. I have used all synthetic Morgan Cool Power exclusively for the last 15 or 16 years or so without any fuel related problems whatsoever. My predominant style of flying during this period is high performance pylon racing which is a severe test of any lubricant, including castor. A clean engine will outperform a carboned up, varnishy engine run on castor oil every time.

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

14% is what we found from evaparation tests as the maker Weston UK wont say what % it is in either Liquid Gold or Prosynth, and we found the Prosynth is about 18-20%, he esures me its some high grade American stuff and is far better than most synths and even castor, and it lasts longer than castor temp wise, this fuel also has cooling agents in it.
i know 14% is low, but apart from these lower quality engines i've not found a problem. yep, lots of oil when im running in, and if you look at the rest of my planes after a run, there lots of nice clean oil on them as well, no black gummy castor.

i see lots of engines on our field, most use this fuel, some have the castor only stuff, these engines dont run as strong, have trouble throttling, and for the most part seam to over heat easy and cut often.
Personaly im not for using castor, i think things have moved on since the old days where engines ran hot and had no pressure tanks blah blah blah if you've got unburnt oil on your plane after a run, then your ok IMO, im only trying not to void my warrenty on this one engine.
Weston will void anything not ran on Liquid Gold or Prosynth untampered with
The others void anything without castor. we get Weston fuel nice and cheep coz Weston is a good friend of our club, the other fuels are expensive and seam troublesome.
I probably could add some of this aerosave stuff just to bump the % up a bit, but my planes seam oily enough. and no engines have burnt oil stains in the exhaust ports

visioneer_one

My Feedback: (506)

What, is he getting a kickback from those fuel manufacturers?

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

no, Weston UK IS the maker, he also sells the Magnum engines, which he says use only his stuff, which from his POV is fair enough, but a little weird when other places sell its twin, the ASP and SC and they say dont use synth only fuels, they seam to only sell fuel with castor, even if its not theirs.
little thing i meantioned on phone to the other place, their engine review was carried out using Liquid Gold which they say not to use, "Oh! he said, is it? i'll have to check that"

downunder-RCU

Hmmm...so Weston sells engines but also makes fuel and won't offer a warranty on any engine bought from them unless you use their fuels? Not too sure of the legality of that....
Personally I'd never buy any fuel that didn't state clearly exactly how much and what type of oil is used.
It seems you're intent on using only a synthetic oil so why not use the only synthetic that's acknowledged as being even better than castor? Go get hold of some full size gas turbine oil. It seems this Aerosave/Aerosynth may be one of them but used mainly in Continental Europe. Esso have a turbine oil and there's always Mobil Jet Oil 2.

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

to quote from the guarantee card:
This guarantee is also void unless Liquid Gold/ Pro Synth 2000 fuel is used.
Now.. if he made the engines himself like Bub Jett then he would know what is best for them, but, these are Magnums, and anywhere else you buy them says to use castor in the fuel.
Weston have been asked many times about content of the fuel, but will never give any answer, this is why the other companys will void warrentys on engines that run it, the people i was talking to, said if he told them, then they might see theres nothing wrong with this mix and change their minds on its use.
I just add, Liquid Gold and Pro Synth are sold as sport fuels, not just comp fuels which you expect max power at expense of engine life.

But you have to remember people get stuck in their ways sometimes, its hard to know what to be doing when you have to respect the views of both.
personaly, if i can get 4 good years of use out of an engine, thats better than 8-10 years with a lack luster, troublesome engine.
I will add castor to get my fuel to 20% if i can find it, but with friends at the local airbase, i think finding turbine oil is gonna be alot easier.
I still wanna know how you mix it, i know theres one fuel you get which is mainly red, but always has this green layer on top... the oil me thinks.. so if that fuels got loads of oil, and it seperates, and you just draw the fuel from the bottom red layer, whats the point lol

Elwood

My Feedback: (2)

In the US, a guarantee cannot be contingent on the use of a second, specific product. I guess they can put it in the guarantee, but that part is not enforceable here. Imagine if my Ford came with a guarantee that would be void anything but Exxon was used? Such a requirement is stupid. I hope that the UK has a similar law.

They can specify what the fuel used should be, as far as nitro and oil content. This is proper.

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

well, the other place went one step further, when i sent back the ASP i asked for a diffrent engine type, coz ASP and Magnum are the same and im having trouble with quality, so i've got a Leo, the engines are the sme price, but i've been charged £10 in part exchange, because i've used a fuel they dont recomend..
Now.. they recomend in instructions to run in with castor fuels, and if using synth only, to do so after 3 hours running and 20%, they mention nothing about you cant use it full stop, just not recomended, and like i said before, the review was done on Liquid Gold.
when i sent it back he said it was too dry, and if he wanted to be difficult he could void the warrenty because i was using this fuel.
i saw no mention of that anywhere.
So now i've spent the price of an irvine 36 on this damn thing..
I could have got a carb and new piston liner and bearings for my old one cheeper too.
Weston need to come clean about the fuel, the others need to stop bashing what they dont know

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

oh yer, i forgot, when i sent back a Magnum i did ask Weston if i could add 2% castor to Pro Synth and what would it do...
Reply:

Our synthetic is custom made for us for model engine application and does not burn at the same temperature as other lesser quality synthetics, stick with Pro Synth and everything will be OK
It would void the warranty if you put castor in it


so more protection is bad...?
i dont doubt what he says about it being a good synth tho.
when the fuel first came out it was used by heli pilots, it smokes more because of the antifoaming agent, so they leaned out, lots of motors went bang. its had a bad rep since then, only 2 pilots on our field use it over Liquid Gold and thats because they had the Weston quickie engine and it HAD to ran on that. they had no problem with fuel, just engine quality, bearings ect.
im swapping to it because i see the 18-20% oil + cooling agent over the 14% oil only.


is it any wonder this is the bigest debate in RC flying?

Sport_Pilot

Beware of those turbine jet oils! Much of it is toxic! While it is OK in a Jet where little to none is burned, I wouldn't want to smell the fumes of a two stroke engine using this stuff. Of the well known synthetic oils we use, all have lower flash points and thinner viscosity than castor. Klotz does make a 50W synthetic oil for motorcycles, but do not list it for model engines, don't know why but I belive Wildcat fuel was or is using this oil in their 4 stroke fuel. It would be unfair to say that synthetic oil doesn't coat our bearings. Being thinner it doesn't coat them as thick or as long as castor which will dry and leave a gum on them till you thin it with new fuel.

Engines last a long time on castor, which is why those old timers still have those very old engines which did not perform as well as modern engines when new.

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

see... now i dont care that i can fly my plane, come home, leave it for a year and the oil still be on the bearings, if im not going to use an engine for a long time, i'd fill the engine with car engine oil, then put it in a sealed bag. and just clean it out the next time.
normal way to hang planes is nose up so the castor dosnt gum up your bearings and bits get in them ( bits in engines? not good anyway ), but maybe if using synth, they should hang nose down to keep it on your bearings and stop unburnt fuel attracting moisture.
I dont have that problem the others with castor fuels have first flick of the day, infact, my first flick is probably the best one lol

visioneer_one

My Feedback: (506)

I was thinking about this last night. There's at least one popular product here in the US whose warranty is voided if you use a third party consumable in it. At least half of yuo reading this have one on your desk...

... its your inkjet printer!

They state it pretty plainly. "If you use non-Canon/Epson/Lexmark/HPQ ink in here and we catch you we won't fix the POS when it breaks. Now bend over and give us another Fifty Bucks for a color cartridge that lasts two weeks before drying out."

IIRC HPQ has a class-action lawsuit pending due to them placing restrictions (actually designed into some of their printers) so that you *have* to use their expensive OEM supplies. Greedy *******s. Serves them right.

Jazzy

Phillybaby, since you're unsure of the oil content of the Weston fuel and the owner/maker won't disclose it, doesn't that make you wonder?
In my opinion adding 2 or 3% castor to any fuel will NOT harm an engine. Personally I don't like fuel with less than 3% castor. (3 - 5% castor preffered.) I try not to use fuels with less than 18% oil total.
It sounds like Weston is using a light synthetic along with a heavy synthetic. The light synthetic, having a lower flashpoint, burns away leaving the heavy synthetic to carry away combustion heat.
I once brought an engine back to life using Red Max 10% nitro and 20% all synthetic from a couple of years of using Sig 10% nitro having 20% oil, (50/50 castor/syntheic blend).

Mixing:

There are two ways of determining how much to add - as far as I know. By volume and by weight. I mix by weight. Actually, I figure it out by weight and measure by volume. (Some mixing cups have weight graduations.) Measuring using SAE methods can be confusing. The metric system is much easier! Due to the different densities of the components one cup of castor, one of nitro, one of methonal, and one of synthetic do not 'weigh' the same. What a mess!

I say go ahead and add 3 -5% castor. Who will know? Only you.
The mess on your planes won't change noticeably - unless it is REALLY cold when you fly.

Jeff

ramcharger

I would agree with one of the first responses. I switched to 10% Cool Power in 1996 or 97 and have not had any engine problems. My OS 46FX and Webra 50 Speed (both ABN) have accummulated hundreds of runs and crank to the same rpm as when new. My Rossi 45, Enya 50CX, MVVS 49, and ST 40 & 45 have been run on nothing but CP and they continue to run well. I don't bother with after run oil and they sit in my basement un-run for months, still no problem. I agree that castor oil or oil of palma christi or ricinus oil or what ever you call this mixture of fatty acids does nothing to extend the life of a non-iron engine, definitly takes away performance, and it polmerizes all over your engine and muffler.

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

i have to admit, no after run oil for me either, i dont even run the engine dry, isnt that just runing it at full speed lean for a few seconds till its bone dry and no oil anywhere, bad idea to me.. i'd rather keep my unburnt oil in there. nope, no sign of rusty bearings either.

Who would know... well, if Weston got back an engine thats gummy and got varnish on the piston, i think they might, on the other hand, if the other places get back a clean engine, they might realise too.

The people in the US that seam to be using castor do so in engines that are going to work hard, the comp and quickie engines, they also seam to come from florida where a scorcher here is brass monkey weather there. so hot engines is a way of life.
Yes, its cold when we fly here sometimes, none of this lighter fluid to set light to the engine first tho, but it has been known for plastic carbs on quickies to freeze during flight and restrict airflow.
Jazzy, you say your using 10% nitro, and straight away, compaired to us your running a hot engine, we're on 5%
this is what i mean by it depends on use. its colder here and we use less nitro, the engine stays cooler, so do we need the extra protection?

downunder-RCU

Well I'll state categorically that running the engine dry even at WOT will NOT cause any harm whatsoever to the engine. I guess I can't be any clearer than that

How can I be so sure? Because every single C/L engine finishes every flight running at full throttle and sucking every last drop of fuel from the tank. They wouldn't be getting anything up to 1000 HOURS (not just flights) otherwise.

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

Dont C/L engines also run slighty rich tho so that they lean out in the loop overs? like you said before, rich = more oil
i remember a debate similar to this but about running in, they said about running in as you intend to use the engine, which for C/L meant almost 4 stroking, so thats where i got that info from, i dont C/L, i can fly so dont shoot me if im wrong lol
and no we're not starting that runing in fight lol
if i did run my engine dry, then i would use after run oil.
i used to use WD-40, but it made my engine a t*&t to start next weekend.
That was also when i used to use Modelcr&pmix fuel with added goo

Back to something i said earlier, is anyone in the UK using the Ripmax team fuel? and if so, what is the reason behind the colour layers in the fuel? is it the oil and fuel layers? coz that cant be good if all your oil is sitting on the top and your not drawing it

dennis

My Feedback: (90)

I've read all the threads in this file and the never ending controversy on oil continues, so I'll throw my 2c worth in.
As to controlline motors the old iron/mehanite/ leadloy pistons and liners needed lots of oil to survive, lean runs were death to these set-ups. A normal fuel for a Fox 35 is 29% castor oil[only castor] for the newer motors wheather they be C/L or r/c the oil requirements are a little different.
Any of the plain non ball bearing motors should still be generous with oil,22/25% and castor is still the best for these motors so some should always be in your fuel.
Newer ball bearing ABC/ABN can use 18/20% oil mixtures I favor the 20 and yes you can run total synthetic mixes, however, as has been pointed out lean runs with synthetic will kill your motor because of the low flashpoint of the oil.
Lets clarify something that has been alluded to but not said outright, less oil and more menthanol in a fuel means more power because there is more stuff that burns in it, of course your going to get more RPM and power. That is the trade off you make. Go too low on any type of oil and it's all over no matter what fuel you elect to use,
A manufacturer usually will err on the positive margin on oil for obvious reasons, destroyed motors are not good press for him and the cost of repairing these motors can be a killer under warrenty. Almost all will specify a little castor to cover all bases. There are a few though that for reasons of carbon buildup do not specify any, Saito is one of them, it kills their exhaust valve when it builds up and doesn't close right it fries the head.
So while I'm not helping our British friend in his problem with Weston, and I'd be leery of them, the point is this.
All fuels are created to achieve a certain goal, either power, longevity, or hopefully a little of both, but you have to make the choice what you want. If hovering is your thing then power is what you need, but a bigger motor is usually a better way to get it other then running a bad fuel.
As for me I run both castor and synthetic and am pleased with both. Oh by the way some of my old C/L motors that I used as a kid are still running fine almost 50 years, castor oil, hundreds of hours, and definitely not run in a blubbering 4 cycle

Jazzy

The engine that I 'brought back to life' did have a slight varnish build up. Running the full synthetic actually cleaned the varnish off!
As I run both two and four stroke engines on the same fuel I do preffer the little bit of castor for ring and lean run protection. Maybe that little bit of castor is inconsequential but, I still like having it in there.
It is just what I preffer. The are few absolutes in this hobby and in life so use what works best for you.

BTW, running an ABC/ABN engine cool in cold weather is not good.
Maybe that is why the fuel only has ~14% oil - it alows the engine to reach proper operating temp given the lower ambient temperatures.

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

i forgot to mention the less oil = more to burn coz i had read that else where and it didnt occour to me to repeate it here.
I'm not having a problem with Weston, if anything, its others that dont like his fuel because they wont do the R&D on it.
I was hoping to see Westons owner's son today out gliding, but he stayed in bed with hangover. if he would tell what is what, i dunno. hes normally pretty honest about the stuff he runs and what he calls it when it wont start lol

sport10

If you are unhappy with the fuel why not get another brand. Doesn't Morgan fuels,Powermaster, or Wildcat import to the UK? I like to use glowfuels with at least 18% castor/synthetic in my two strokes and fully synthetic with at least 20% in my fourstrokes (Do not like gummed valves). I usually use Morgan fuels with added klotz synthetic oil if percentage of oil is low. Also, I think it is not right that an engine dealer thinks he can add an addition condition to the manufactures warranty. I wonder what Magnum Engines would say to this?

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

I have no problem with the fuel im using, just anywhere other than Weston has.
Infact, heres a pic from a 3 min flight with my combat delta, nice and oily.
I saw the owners son today, asked what % is what, he said the old man would kill him if told people that, so i said we got 14% for LQ and 18-20% for PS. "your not far wrong" he said
"im a bit to low?"
"fraction"
so.. that means LQ is 14-16% good for comp use but like he told me, hes been using synth oil only for 15 years, with no problems.
And the prosynth is 20%
He also had a nice electric set up on a Cougar, very impresive and surprisingly cheap.
And a nice new develpoment West engine on his other Cougar , and yes i want one