Norvel .15 tuning?
12-21-2004, 11:24 PM
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Norvel .15 tuning?
I have been wondering how long it takes for a norvel .15 AME to be broken in good so that it is reliable!
I have run it for a while off and on about 1 quart of fuel so far and it still isn't where I want it. This thing is very sensitive to tuning. I am runing 25% fuel with real Castor not synthetic. I can tune it fine when it is level but as soon as I point it straight up it starts to slow down and wants to stall. Is this something that will go away as the motor breaks in, is it common to this motor? Is it just my lack of experiance?
I really wanyt to use this motor in my new mini 3D but it has to be able ro run when I try to hover and climb out of manuvers, can't have a new plane falling out of the sky because of a crumby motor!
what can I do to get this thing running better?
I am using the fuel tank for the plane I will be using it in, on my test stand, so I will know if all will work once it is in the plane?
Thanks guys,
Chris
I have run it for a while off and on about 1 quart of fuel so far and it still isn't where I want it. This thing is very sensitive to tuning. I am runing 25% fuel with real Castor not synthetic. I can tune it fine when it is level but as soon as I point it straight up it starts to slow down and wants to stall. Is this something that will go away as the motor breaks in, is it common to this motor? Is it just my lack of experiance?
I really wanyt to use this motor in my new mini 3D but it has to be able ro run when I try to hover and climb out of manuvers, can't have a new plane falling out of the sky because of a crumby motor!
what can I do to get this thing running better?
I am using the fuel tank for the plane I will be using it in, on my test stand, so I will know if all will work once it is in the plane?
Thanks guys,
Chris
12-22-2004, 07:10 AM
#2
RE: Norvel .15 tuning?
Chris,
When you tune horizontal and point the nose up you are probably starving the engine for fuel. There are several things you can do to help.
* Mount the tank closer to the engine
* Use muffler pressure
* Tune with the nose at 45 degrees.
* Restrict the carb or venturi a little (or add an air filter).
Good luck with it.
George
When you tune horizontal and point the nose up you are probably starving the engine for fuel. There are several things you can do to help.
* Mount the tank closer to the engine
* Use muffler pressure
* Tune with the nose at 45 degrees.
* Restrict the carb or venturi a little (or add an air filter).
Good luck with it.
George
12-22-2004, 09:45 PM
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RE: Norvel .15 tuning?
A couple of guys in the 1/2A forums specifically recomended this fuel and it seems fine but still leans out when the nose is pointed up. I am using muffler preasure and the tank is right behind the motor I even tried tuning it with the nose in the air but it is just too sensitive, I can't seem to find a point where it wants to stay running nose up. I will keep running it on the stand to try to break it in a little better and see what happens!
Chris
Chris
12-23-2004, 10:07 AM
#5
RE: Norvel .15 tuning?
Chris,
A few more opinions:
Your choice, but unless you need the performance you can easily run 10%-15% nitro. I think some use the 80/20 FAI fuel (80% methanol, 20% castor oil). I use 15% in my .049 and .061 Norvel BigMig's...but I'm not looking for max performance.
You can also run a synthetic/castor lube, although I'd keep the content at about 20% total lube. The AME being BB should run well with less castor, more synthetic.
Your engine is probably broken-in. I would look for something that would lower fuel draw such as a leak around the backplate or carb, or something that would lower muffler pressure like the seals around the exhaust/muffler connection.
As you play with sifferent fuel mixes, also play with the number of head shims and plug types to get best performance with a specific fuel.
George
A few more opinions:
Your choice, but unless you need the performance you can easily run 10%-15% nitro. I think some use the 80/20 FAI fuel (80% methanol, 20% castor oil). I use 15% in my .049 and .061 Norvel BigMig's...but I'm not looking for max performance.
You can also run a synthetic/castor lube, although I'd keep the content at about 20% total lube. The AME being BB should run well with less castor, more synthetic.
Your engine is probably broken-in. I would look for something that would lower fuel draw such as a leak around the backplate or carb, or something that would lower muffler pressure like the seals around the exhaust/muffler connection.
As you play with sifferent fuel mixes, also play with the number of head shims and plug types to get best performance with a specific fuel.
George
12-23-2004, 05:30 PM
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RE: Norvel .15 tuning?
Hi!
If it is very sensitive on the needle it might be that you run too much nitro.
25% is much for an ordinary sport engine and most engines could not cope with that much nitro without adding a head shim (0.1mm) or two. The symptoms when running too much nitro is that the engine gets very sensitive on needle setting and could flame out at high speeds and too lean settings
Here is what I would use for your engine.
Fuel: 5-15% nitro
Oil: 18-20% oil either castor or a mix of castor and synthetic (Klotz)......If you could get your hands on the oils we have over here in Europe you could use 15% all synthetic oil like Motul "Micro" or Aerosynth 2 or Aerosave.
Glowplug: Enya 3 or OS 8....even Rossi 5 or 6 probably any glowplug would work fine.
Prop: 8x4-8x5 APC...for general sport flying and Aircombat....if racing, 7x4 or 7x5 APC.
Fueltank: A Tettra "Bubbleless" 100cc (4oz) fuel tank. second best: an ordinary fueltank from Sullivan or Du-Bro, set up with Uniflow function (with two lines running parallel to each other, one for pressure and one for delivering fuel to the carb).
Very important to have the center of the tank inline to the carb intake orifice when airplane sits horizontal. I always mount my engines tilted 90 degrees to the side, silencer under the fuselage, as this makes locating the fueltank a lot more easy.
Regards!
Jan K
Sweden
If it is very sensitive on the needle it might be that you run too much nitro.
25% is much for an ordinary sport engine and most engines could not cope with that much nitro without adding a head shim (0.1mm) or two. The symptoms when running too much nitro is that the engine gets very sensitive on needle setting and could flame out at high speeds and too lean settings
Here is what I would use for your engine.
Fuel: 5-15% nitro
Oil: 18-20% oil either castor or a mix of castor and synthetic (Klotz)......If you could get your hands on the oils we have over here in Europe you could use 15% all synthetic oil like Motul "Micro" or Aerosynth 2 or Aerosave.
Glowplug: Enya 3 or OS 8....even Rossi 5 or 6 probably any glowplug would work fine.
Prop: 8x4-8x5 APC...for general sport flying and Aircombat....if racing, 7x4 or 7x5 APC.
Fueltank: A Tettra "Bubbleless" 100cc (4oz) fuel tank. second best: an ordinary fueltank from Sullivan or Du-Bro, set up with Uniflow function (with two lines running parallel to each other, one for pressure and one for delivering fuel to the carb).
Very important to have the center of the tank inline to the carb intake orifice when airplane sits horizontal. I always mount my engines tilted 90 degrees to the side, silencer under the fuselage, as this makes locating the fueltank a lot more easy.
Regards!
Jan K
Sweden
12-23-2004, 08:02 PM
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RE: Norvel .15 tuning?
I'll try some 10% nitro that I have and see what happens. I hope that helps. I really appreciate all the help you guys have given me. It is a real help, because I just don't have anyone here to give me advice. I am just about done with my mini 3D and I want to fly it soon even though we have a ton of snow here. I need something to do to relieve the stress you know!!
Chris
Chris
12-24-2004, 01:24 PM
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RE: Norvel .15 tuning?
Ran it today with the 10% in it I got it to run ok pointing up, It is really cold outside so I ran it in the basement garage first and it was going good. Then I Took it outside It ran ok horizontal but not so good pointing up, just too darn cold I guess! any thoughts ? more nitro, less nitro or do I just need to richen it up a bunch?
12-25-2004, 01:19 PM
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RE: Norvel .15 tuning?
Hi!
If you have tried 25% nitro earlier and it now runs better with 10%...why not try 5%nitro?!
...or just richen the needle somewhat.
But most important is...How does the engine sound and react now compared to when you ran 25% nitro earlier...??? Is it easier to needle it now or...???
Regards!
Jan K
Sweden
If you have tried 25% nitro earlier and it now runs better with 10%...why not try 5%nitro?!
...or just richen the needle somewhat.
But most important is...How does the engine sound and react now compared to when you ran 25% nitro earlier...??? Is it easier to needle it now or...???
Regards!
Jan K
Sweden
12-25-2004, 09:47 PM
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RE: Norvel .15 tuning?
Hello folks,
I’m here in Mechanicsville Virginia where it is never to cold to fly. This AM (yes I went flying on Christmas day) was 22 deg F. and I fly 3 Norvell .15’s and 2 Norvell .25’s. Some tips: There is never enough nitro. The needle is harder to adjust with more nitro. The smaller the engine the harder it is to adjust the needle. The colder the air the more power you will make on given fuel (generally it has less moisture in it). That being said, you also have to have what I call the ear.
The ear is associated with the number of years you have had in the hobby. The longer in the hobby, the better the ear skills. What is this fool rambling on about you ask, well it is the ability to listen to a running engine along with a few observations that allow you to be an engine tuner. I qualify with over 15 year’s nitro model boat racing. I fly now.
The short course:
If you are a sport flyer running 15% is fine. Synthetic is good, but if you have a lean run and no caster in the mix you will ruin a piston and sleeve. Caster will varnish the parts and save the engine.
Start with the tank. A common problem is the clunk being to close to the back wall. Have at least 1\8” clearance to the tank back. That is all over the back, center and the edges. Check the tubing for pin holes and cracks. If in doubt, replace it.
Tank placement is next. The tank center line is generally at the level of the spray bar in the carb. This is not always achievable. If it is not, it will effect engine operation while performing aerobatics. Tank pressure helps.
After the above is considered the engine should be started allowed to warm then peaked at max throttle (don’t remove the nye starter). Open the needle a click or two past peak (on the rich side) then, bring to idle. If the engine dies at idle, the idle is to lean (Idle mix). If the engine runs at idle then starts to sputter and dies, the idle is way to rich and has no chance of running at idle if the nye starter is removed. Stop the engine and adjust the idle mix, restart and try idling again (leave the top end mix alone). Now that this has been achieved, we need to understand that the engine leans out as soon as it starts to fly. The top end needs to be readjusted with the nye starter removed for a click or two rich, past peak. When the nye starter is removed the engine will drop some rpm as the heat provided by the voltage and current is removed and the combustion is now dependent on the chemical reaction of the hot platinum element and the alcohol in the fuel. When the needle adjustment is correct you can pinch the fuel line very quickly (don’t pinch it to long, you will kill the engine) and hear the engine pick up rpm slightly. This is the right spot. Next it is necessary to adjust the idle mix. After the top end adjustment has been achieved, reduce the throttle to idle and let it run at this setting for 10 seconds or so. Move the throttle to the max rpm position and listen to the engine rpm transition. If the transition is smooth you are home free. If the transition is rough and sputtering the idle mix is to rich. The crank case loads with fuel at idle and as the throttle is opened the engine floods out. This is not a problem with the max throttle adjustment, just the idle. You will find the correct idle mix position when you can allow the engine to idle for extended periods and transition to max rpm with no problem. Note that high performance engines do not transition like engines that are considered sport. It is much harder to find the needle on a Norvel than an OS La. The higher the nitro, the more air temp and air moisture will affect the requirement of needle adjustment. All of the above is in consideration of one other item. The plug is good and is not wound with platinum that is too heavy for the conditions. I use standard plugs. Not hot, not cold, not high dollar. If you run an engine to lean repeatedly, the platinum gets dull and noticeably pitted. Not good for consistent runs. To date I am running the same plug in my LA 40 trainer that I installed spring a year ago. Remember it’s never to cold to fly around here.
The fact that you are dealing with a Norvell .15 makes it easy. No idle adjustment. But beware, that little hole in the front of the carb venture is the idle air bleed. You will pick up debris in the hole and it will make flying miserable. Keep a few pieces of stranded copper wire in the box that a single strand fit’s the hole. If it looks blocked, it most likely is. Clean it out. I am flying my Norvel .15’s on bat airplanes of our club’s design. I have found that I am not happy with the performance until I reach 20% nitro. This is the point where the vertical performance is satisfying. The other thing you should take note of is how it is propped. If you have over propped the engine, you will not be able to find the proper setting for the needles. I have found that the engine really likes the Master Airscrew spec SSC 8x3 prop. It’s blue.
Wow, look at that, I sure can be long winded can’t I. I hope you find something useful in the rambling on. The above technique, I have used for many years and has not failed me. It does not take in account that an engine had been crashed and has a bent crank or was cranked by an electric starter while flooded and now has a bent rod or connecting pin. If you think I can offer answers to questions you might have, send a post.
Fred
P.S. I you would like to see my latest Norvell project see the “All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> S.P.A.D. Aircraft - Coroplast design >> 1st combat spad” post on this site.
I’m here in Mechanicsville Virginia where it is never to cold to fly. This AM (yes I went flying on Christmas day) was 22 deg F. and I fly 3 Norvell .15’s and 2 Norvell .25’s. Some tips: There is never enough nitro. The needle is harder to adjust with more nitro. The smaller the engine the harder it is to adjust the needle. The colder the air the more power you will make on given fuel (generally it has less moisture in it). That being said, you also have to have what I call the ear.
The ear is associated with the number of years you have had in the hobby. The longer in the hobby, the better the ear skills. What is this fool rambling on about you ask, well it is the ability to listen to a running engine along with a few observations that allow you to be an engine tuner. I qualify with over 15 year’s nitro model boat racing. I fly now.
The short course:
If you are a sport flyer running 15% is fine. Synthetic is good, but if you have a lean run and no caster in the mix you will ruin a piston and sleeve. Caster will varnish the parts and save the engine.
Start with the tank. A common problem is the clunk being to close to the back wall. Have at least 1\8” clearance to the tank back. That is all over the back, center and the edges. Check the tubing for pin holes and cracks. If in doubt, replace it.
Tank placement is next. The tank center line is generally at the level of the spray bar in the carb. This is not always achievable. If it is not, it will effect engine operation while performing aerobatics. Tank pressure helps.
After the above is considered the engine should be started allowed to warm then peaked at max throttle (don’t remove the nye starter). Open the needle a click or two past peak (on the rich side) then, bring to idle. If the engine dies at idle, the idle is to lean (Idle mix). If the engine runs at idle then starts to sputter and dies, the idle is way to rich and has no chance of running at idle if the nye starter is removed. Stop the engine and adjust the idle mix, restart and try idling again (leave the top end mix alone). Now that this has been achieved, we need to understand that the engine leans out as soon as it starts to fly. The top end needs to be readjusted with the nye starter removed for a click or two rich, past peak. When the nye starter is removed the engine will drop some rpm as the heat provided by the voltage and current is removed and the combustion is now dependent on the chemical reaction of the hot platinum element and the alcohol in the fuel. When the needle adjustment is correct you can pinch the fuel line very quickly (don’t pinch it to long, you will kill the engine) and hear the engine pick up rpm slightly. This is the right spot. Next it is necessary to adjust the idle mix. After the top end adjustment has been achieved, reduce the throttle to idle and let it run at this setting for 10 seconds or so. Move the throttle to the max rpm position and listen to the engine rpm transition. If the transition is smooth you are home free. If the transition is rough and sputtering the idle mix is to rich. The crank case loads with fuel at idle and as the throttle is opened the engine floods out. This is not a problem with the max throttle adjustment, just the idle. You will find the correct idle mix position when you can allow the engine to idle for extended periods and transition to max rpm with no problem. Note that high performance engines do not transition like engines that are considered sport. It is much harder to find the needle on a Norvel than an OS La. The higher the nitro, the more air temp and air moisture will affect the requirement of needle adjustment. All of the above is in consideration of one other item. The plug is good and is not wound with platinum that is too heavy for the conditions. I use standard plugs. Not hot, not cold, not high dollar. If you run an engine to lean repeatedly, the platinum gets dull and noticeably pitted. Not good for consistent runs. To date I am running the same plug in my LA 40 trainer that I installed spring a year ago. Remember it’s never to cold to fly around here.
The fact that you are dealing with a Norvell .15 makes it easy. No idle adjustment. But beware, that little hole in the front of the carb venture is the idle air bleed. You will pick up debris in the hole and it will make flying miserable. Keep a few pieces of stranded copper wire in the box that a single strand fit’s the hole. If it looks blocked, it most likely is. Clean it out. I am flying my Norvel .15’s on bat airplanes of our club’s design. I have found that I am not happy with the performance until I reach 20% nitro. This is the point where the vertical performance is satisfying. The other thing you should take note of is how it is propped. If you have over propped the engine, you will not be able to find the proper setting for the needles. I have found that the engine really likes the Master Airscrew spec SSC 8x3 prop. It’s blue.
Wow, look at that, I sure can be long winded can’t I. I hope you find something useful in the rambling on. The above technique, I have used for many years and has not failed me. It does not take in account that an engine had been crashed and has a bent crank or was cranked by an electric starter while flooded and now has a bent rod or connecting pin. If you think I can offer answers to questions you might have, send a post.
Fred
P.S. I you would like to see my latest Norvell project see the “All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> S.P.A.D. Aircraft - Coroplast design >> 1st combat spad” post on this site.
