Sport_Pilot

Years ago when Chevy introduced their new V-8's they had a problem with hard cylinders or rings, and new engines burning oil because the rings would not seat. To accelerate the break in they recommemded pouring in some Bon Ami or Comet a scouring abrasive cleaner down the carb.

gjeffers

ive been running pm15, 50%syn 50% castor and have over 170flights on her now and there is a small amout of black if you look in the ex port but other than that i dont think it is that bad,one thing i do know is my bearings are still shinnywhen it does go ill just clean off the black and rebuild her, nothing lost, alot gained(protection).

Flyer95

My Feedback: (1)

Hi Guys,
I have now done the break-in for my saito 180 and it goes like a train and was very reliable out of the box, and after I leaned the idle mixture 1/2 turn it idled very reliable at 17-1800rpm[sm=thumbup.gif]. I used 25% cheap castor oil and 15% nitro so nothing fancy here for the first two tanks and then my usual 20% syntetic/ castor blend and 15% nitro. Very good compression & very easy starting engine and the vibration level is also very low[sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif]. Many thanks /Amir

MerlinL14

I am using Weston, Prosynth 10% to run my Saito. The first 2 tanks were 10% nitro with 20% caster. I have always used castor based fuels and "know" it will not harm my engines.

iflyj3

My Feedback: (7)

Notice: In the USA we get Horizons instructions and not those from Saito.

Flyboy Dave

My Feedback: (21)

Horizon prints the instructions,and puts them in the boxes with the Saito engines ?

Oh....really ?

FBD.

iflyj3

My Feedback: (7)

Why else would the instructions for the Saito vary depending on the country it ships to? It seems in this country we are trying not to hurt the Castor Oil manufacturers feelings or our old control line converts that were used to 30% castor in cast iron sleeved and pistoned engines.!

FenceMagnet

My Feedback: (2)

"Why else would the instructions for the Saito vary depending on the country it ships to? It seems in this country we are trying not to hurt the Castor Oil manufacturers feelings or our old control line converts that were used to 30% castor in cast iron sleeved and pistoned engines.! "

What a dork!!.... nobody here is suggesting that anyone run 100% castor oil (let alone anything aproaching 30%!)! If you can't comprehend the benefiets of running a few % castor mixed with the synthetics, then get on your skateboard and tune in your rap and come back when some maturity sets in.... and if that profile doesn't fit you, consider why it would seem to...

[:-]

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

Magnet:

I wouldn't go that far, note he has a "Ham" call and is a member of EAA. Both say he has more than a cretin's mentality.

At the same time he does seem to be lumping all castor proponents into a Luddite sort of box.

But while "Big Oil (petroleum)" does exist, "Big Oil (castor)" does not.

Bill.

Rupurt

"Ham" as in ham radio?

I have read in magazines that good quality synth oils designed for rc can be as good at lubricating as castor as long as the aren't heated excessively. Are they talking bull or do these statements have substance? I realise the people who write for these mags are not gods(although some people regard there opinions infallible facts) and could be misinformed.

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

Rupurt:

Yes, "Ham" as in :Ham Radio."

While an ABC/ABN two stroke engine with a plain bearing crank can be run on all synthetic oil, it will run much longer with castor as the synthetics do not have the proper characteristics for long life of the crankshaft bearing.

An old style engine with a steel sleeve and a meehanite iron piston will never run correctly without castor oil, it's needed to make the piston fit properly, It's like "Seasoning" a cast iron skillet - ask your wife.

The cam shaft lobes and tappets of a four stroke engine will run a long time with pure synthetic oil, but the higher film strength of the castor oil will make them last a lot longer.

Finally, the "Carbon build-up" caused by castor oil is an old wive's tale. It does not happen with a good lube blend.

Bill.

Rupurt

I don't have a wife (I am 21) but do rember being told somthing about not using dishwashing soap on the big heavy pan. I was given an old fox 25 bushed engine by a guy at work it has a piston baffle and a weird carb. I cant get the engine to run for more than a short burst ever i will take some pics and start a thread about it anyway i think this is one of those ancient engines you where speaking of.

Motorboy

Syntetics oil with some percent castor oil added will "clue" at metal surfaces and keep at place while the engine running. Better to care the gearwheel and cam, tappets etc with some percent of castor oil in synt. oil because it is not allways enough oil in crankcase as in 2 stroke engines with enough oil from carburator to exhaustport.

The 4 stroke engine as Magnum, OS, ASP and other who are not powerful as Saito run well with pure castoroil..

Jens Eirik

The PIPE

And I've been strongly considering a "universal fuel" for ALL my four strokes!

Dear Flyer95 and fellow RCU Four Stroke Lovers:

The PIPE Here once more...and I've been used to using an ALL synthetic lube amount of 17% in the FHS Red Max four stroke 10% nitro fuel in my four strokes, since I returned the hobby in 2001 from a fifteen year time away from the hobby.

I'm very soon going to have an engine, though, that states that it HAS to have SOME castor oil in the fuel...

...at http://www.rcvengines.com/rcv120sp.htm ...

...and with all the talk that "some" castor oil IS a dependable policy (against engine wear) in this thread, and in others here at RCU that I've read in the past I'm thinking that I MIGHT just go for a sort of "universal" four stroke fuel, with a 15% oil percentage...11% synthetic and 4% castor oil...and a 10% nitro content, for all of my four strokes.

The two older OS "mills" I've got, a VERY dependable FS-40, and a newly re-bearinged FS-90 rear camshaft engine (as well as my old Saito 45) ARE of such an older vintage (early 1980s) that they could EASILY go with a lower lubrication percentage type of fuel...engines made in that era WOULD easily run on oil percentages as low as 15%, provided that they were CAREFULLY set to run on the rich side throughout a flight, and also provided the lubrication mix DID have some percentage (about 4 to 5%) of castor in it.

My two "newer" Saito mills, a 30 and 56, are the ones that have instructions that specify a MUCH HIGHER oil content in them of around 18-20%...I've usually just broken them in on my 17% all synthetic oil, but with the first quart's worth of fuel "spiked" up to 19% for the "fast idle" method (first 10-15 minutes of break-in running, under 4000 rpm) of break-in Saito strongly advises using on their four strokes. And I usually extend that "fast idle" time up to 30 minutes to be extra careful on the 19% synthetic oiled "spiked" fuel...just to be truly certain everything's operating all right.

Looking back at the previous posts in this thread, I'm quite certain that Flyboy Dave's scan of a set of Saito FA-90T engine instructions appears to be right FROM Saito's factory...and since the FA-90T engine was on the market in the early 1980s, I'm not surprised at all, to see NO "percentage" specified for the amount of oil in the fuel mix, with a 1980s vintage Saito like the FA-90T.

And after downloading the 2005 editions of the Saito engine manuals, DepFife's text IS in there for the "smaller" Saito singles, like my 30 and 56...and it's there, too, for the BIG Saito singles (I'm hoping to eventually have upwards of HALF A DOZEN of the 220 Zeus singles over the coming years! )...but I've also read here at RCU in the past, that the 20% oil content might be basically an advisory from Horizon to "have enough oil in the fuel to avoid lean run damage", and that oil percentages of as low as 15% for four stroke engine fuels IS all right...provided, of course, that the high speed needle valve IS set well "on the rich side" (about 1/3rd to 1/2 turn richer than the peak RPM on the tach) and that there IS "some castor" in the fuel, perhaps a 15% oil mix of that 10-11% synthetic, & 4-5% castor oil making up the lube blend MIGHT just be a good idea.

For the RCV engine I'm getting, with its manual viewable as an Adobe reader file at http://www.rcvengines.com/pdf_files/...structions.pdf , THAT engine DOES specify a MAXIMUM oil content of 15%, something like the 1980s vintage four strokers could easily be run on...and as I've hinted at, they DO require a 3-to-6% castor oil mix in the fuel for those engines...it's partially because the rotary valve at the top "or front" of an RCV's cylinder depends on the castor oil varnish providing a seal between the spinning liner's outer surface and aluminum cylinder head's inner surface.

And I really do NOT want to have to be lugging around a pair or more of fuel jugs at my club's ( http://www.wingbusters.org/ ) flying site for the Saito 220 Zeus and RCV 120 SP powered WW I Giant Scale subjects that are currently just CAD drawings underway on my PC...and I'm wondering...

...given the care and diligence I've mentioned, that I'm quite willing to put in on all aspects of running my "growing hangar full" of four strokers, would a 15% oil mix consisting of between 10 to 11% FHS synthetic oil and 4 to 5% castor oil be a good idea as a "universal" formula for the FHS Red Max 10% nitro four stroke fuel I'd like to KEEP on using...but with that "universal" oil mix in there to suit ALL my current and future four stroke powerplants???

I'll be listening intently...thanks in advance for any advice !

Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE!

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

Dave:

I have my own "Standard" fuel. Instead of your 10% nitro I'm running 15%, and the oil is 15% synthetic with castor added to a total of 18% oil.

I have seen nothing to make me think your 15% oil would not be fine, I just like that little extra. Remember please, that I'm one of the dinosaurs that used to use 25-30% pure castor oil.

Bill.

FenceMagnet

My Feedback: (2)

"What a dork!!.... "

"I wouldn't go that far, note he has a "Ham" call and is a member of EAA. Both say he has more than a cretin's mentality. "

sorry guys.... I was a bit more cranky than normal.... my sciatica returned for it's periodic "visit"

[:-]

iflyj3

My Feedback: (7)

Wow, I must have struck a nerve with the castor statement. If the shoe fits.......

I made the statement because around here, the ones that are plaudits of castor oil are those that ran Fox 35's on U-C ships. And one of those fellows was the 1962 Nats Stunt Champ.

This dork knows what it is like to be dragged into the next century. I have been using Nicads for 43 years in models and I am resisting going to Li-Po's. Just like you fellows don't want to give up castor. I remember when synthentic oils came out for cars and full scale planes, there was a resistance to change.

In a flock of 46 flying airplanes, I have the following Saitos: 91, 2-150's, 180, 60T, 90TS and 450-R3. So I do have considerable experience with this brand engine. For the record, I use 15% Nitro 18% all synthetic Wildcat fuel in all my engines.

I have the instructions, picture below, from the first Saito 150 I purchased when they hit the market in about 1994. Also from a couple of later models and you can see how they have gone more to saying you can have some castor.

The 1994 instructions have on the back page the Saito information about the company. The later ones are printed with the Horizon stuff on the back. These instructions could have been placed in the box by Saito during manufacture. I'll bet the engines shipped to say, Aussie won't say anything about Horizon. That's why I said Horizon has influence on what is printed in the instructions.

Picture #1 is the 150 instructions from 1994 and it says to avoid castor oil. Picture #2 from 1995 and 1999 says if you use all castor your warranty will be void. And in picture #3 they have softened and said a mix is acceptable and left out the void of the warranty.

That's why I said Horizon has had an influence. There were probably many people so hung up on castor oil that it was affecting their sales.

I have been using all synthentic for a long time and I have not had any problems.

Jim, I was going to have a few cute sayings for you since you started the name calling, but I will not lower myself to that level. It seems to me you did that all by yourself.

Good day fellows.

Flyboy Dave

My Feedback: (21)

I don't think anyone in their right mind would recommend running straight
castor in a Saito, not even the old "Fox boys". My old Saito 80 was a sloppy
engine, oil flew out of every seam. Could you imagine that much castor
burning onto the engine ? It would look pretty sad after a short time, and
the Saitos....(all four strokes) do run much hotter than the two cycles.

That is quite a turn-around in the manuals....once recommending castor for
superior lubrication....then later saying the use of castor will void the
warranty.....that's pretty funny. It could have been the doings of one individual,
the Guy that is responsible for the printing of the English language manuals.

You wouldn't think a brand name company would flip-flop that wildly. c

Dave.

SaCCaL72

My Feedback: (1)

Wow, this is always a hot topic. I am new to 4 Stroke engines and purchased a Saito 100, and have asked the same questions about nitro content / oil content etc. I heard just about every combination out there especially after reading this thread. My Saito Manual suggests the same as what depfife's did where systhetic is recommended but if not available a good 2-Stroke mix of Castor Synthetic will work. But if you really look back at everyones opinions/EXPERIENCE, it seems that just about any combination will work. It seems that everyone claims to have great sucess with the combination they have chosen to use. It looks like there is much leeway when it comes to fuel mixtures. I guess the best suggestion is to use what makes you feel comfortable within the general specs indicated by the Manufacturer and it probably will work well for you. I chose 30% Hi-Rev Helli Fuel with 18% Synthetic but I may have S&W add 2% Castor to that also. Happy Flying!!!

jessiej

.......

I made the statement because around here, the ones that are (plaudits0 of castor oil are those that ran Fox 35's on U-C ships. And one of those fellows was the 1962 Nats Stunt Champ.
Good day fellows.

[/quote]

At first I thought that by "plaudits" you intended to say "pundits", but only a dork would have made such a dorky mistake. Clearly no educated and open minded person would have made such a dorky error. Obviously you would have made no such "dorky" mistake, so I must have misread your post.

jess

Edit: In addition, no non-dorky person would refer to one of great experience and success as a "dork", thus anyone making such an accusation must be, by definition a "dork"

jessiej

Just to show that there is no universal opinion I currently have 5 Saitos. All have been run on a Castor/Syn. blend. I would never , by preference run straight synthetic.

jess

jessiej

Interesting point, FBD. There are some rather wild, and often incomprehensible statements in manuals translated from Asian languages to English, whatever the product. I remember an early Yamaha manual which advised use of the strangler while the engine reached hot temperature.

jess

iflyj3

My Feedback: (7)

If you will consult Mr. Webster you will find that one of the definitions of Plaudit is "2. enthusiastic approval"

Edited to get the quotes attributed to the correct author.

jessiej

[/quote]

If you will consult Mr. Webster you will find that one of the definitions of Plaudit is "2. enthusiastic approval"
[/quote]

Indeed! Good work with the dictionary.

I trust you will now proceed further and discover that "Plaudit", as in your usage is a noun, while in the context of your sentence you were seeking an adjective.

In any event I commend your attempt to properly use our language, in contrast to many here who use incomprehensible combinations of misspelled words with no punctuation.

(BTW I in no way consider myself an expert in grammer, and accept any correction with gratitude)


jess

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

Jess:

Naughty naughty.

Split infinitive.

Naughty naughty.

Haw.

Bill.