tuskegee pilot

My Feedback: (37)

Thanks for your reply. Do you have pictures of what you did by the way. Send them to [email protected] Thanks!

tuskegee pilot

My Feedback: (37)

Thanks for the great reply. That will save my bacon and my hands in the future. No more stuck throttles!!!!

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

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The screw isn't the problem at all. The groove in the carb barrel has a lip on it where it was milled. Remove that lip, for lack of a better term, and your problem will disappear.


Ed Cregger

Syssa Aircraft

It's just a burr from manufacturing that is not removed. I had the same thing happen to me....was not fun flying around for 6 minutes on three-quarter throttle.
I just cleaned it off with a real fine fine and even finer emery after. Did it at the field. No biggie....was flying in 15 minutes. It seems many have this problem.

Ed...where do you fly?

I fly in Farmington.
ccrcclub.org

Cyclic_ Hardover

He'd be surprised how fast tri gear planes slow down if he nails it near the threshold. Or get some netting and get a coupl e guys down the other end. We've done that on the first few flights of a DF jett until the guy gets the hang of it.

tuskegee pilot

My Feedback: (37)

Thank you all for the help on the burr in the carb barrel grove. I sand off the lip as mentioned in the earlier threads. I fly at Wintonbury Flying Club in Bloomfield, CT by the way. We are have a few fly ins this summer, particularly New England's largest electric meet on the last saturday in July 2007. It is AMA sponsored and should be a great event. Come on out if you have the time and invite your friends. Go to www.wfc.com for more information.

Tim Walker

MikeRuth

What is the "JB WELD TRICK"?

I'm assuming it is to put JB Weld around the muffler on the seam that leaks.

MIke R

boex

Well, I am back in the air with my extra 330 and my stock 2300 in it, after fixing the damaged landing gear and fuse because of a deadstick. I am now flying very conservatively, high, close to the runway, not varying the throttle much just in case of another flameout. This is not the way to fly an extra but the 2300 apparently doesn't like any other type of flying, let alone 3d.

My question is, is this engine will ever get to the point where it becomes trustworthy to attempt mild 3d flying or is it going to behave poorly and unreliably the rest of its life?

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

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The majority of times when people complain about deadsticks (which are the pilot's fault, not that of the engine) they have a problem with their fuel tank set up and plumbing, IF the engine has been broken-in properly. Some engines should not be flown until they are well broken-in on a test bench. Especially if the engine is intended for 3D flying. 3D requires that an engine be really seated well and finely adjusted.

Those complaining about the G2300, or most any other engine, have made some bad decisions along the way, but, once again, assuming that the engine has been broken-in properly. glow engines generally are not plug'n'play. If you want one of those, you shouldn't be looking at anything other than YS or OS.

Were I forced to fly a two-stroke glow engine in my 3D plane (not likely), the first thing that I would do is to fit the engine with either a Cline or Iron Bay regulator system. The fuel tank would have to be something high end, not the junk that comes with most models. I would also be tempted to look for a carburetor with a slightly smaller air flow capability than the stock carb that came with the G2300. You're not going to be using full throttle often anyway, if you have the least bit of finesse, so you might as well get a carb that will sufficiently atomize the fuel during partial throttle operation. Most glow two-strokes suffer in this area. This would be a smaller OS or Magnum/Sanye/ASP/SC carb. Or, if you want a really great carb, see if one from Jett Engineering will fit your engine after explaining to the helpful folks what it is that you are trying to do.

You may as well add a head gasket or two too, because most 3D folks are also nitro freaks, at least here in the US.

Were I really paranoid about deadsticking during a hover, an onboard glow driver might also be in the works. Most times they aren't needed, if things are set up correctly. Most times. It is not beyond reason to swap out the glow driver for a light weight spark ignition system. Then you know you'll have spark when you need it.

I have yet to understand why anyone thinks that hovering a model a few feet off the ground is any big deal. What are you guys thinking? Try flying a proscribed pattern some day and find out what disciplined flying is about. It is much more difficult than flopping around in close.


Ed Cregger

Cyclic Hardover

My Feedback: (3)

You should not just build the plane and do it, need to build up trust in the plane. Flying conservative can do this. Do your stunts up higher.

coupar

Boex:

Dispite all the great advice in this thread, my 2300 would dead stick suddenly at a throttle change. It would happen anywhere in the flight.

I tuned the Dickens out of the engine, tried several plugs (F included), variations of fuel (5,10,15) and run gallons of it, variations of props (16,15,18....), variations of fuel tubing, Perry Carb, Perry pump, completly new fuel system and I am using the stock muffler. The engine would run just great on the ground and you could shake it all over the place it would be fine. Then up in the air, every flight, dead stick out of no where! After spending $100 dollars on these various attempts to correct the (cheap?) engine, I bought a 4500mah C cell and a switch (total cost less than $10, weight a few ounces) and hooked it up as an on board glow. The engine has run like a champ ever since. Not one dead stick in 40 flights and I can idle to the point I can almost count the revs.

Even if this isnt a great solution for you, I would try on board glow first because it's gotta be the cheapest option and it will hide a lot of tuning issues from giving you dead sticks. A 4500mah cell gives you about 2 hours of flying. I wouldnt even mess with the fancier on board glow controllers. In my experience you just dont know what throttle setting the engine could die at!



Cheers for now!

boex

I appreciate everyone of you for giving great advice and I find RCU an incredible source of info and news about our great hobby.

I am very encouraged Coupar by your results. I will definitely try your suggestion and go with the simple on board glow solution.

One question though, should I go with a 1.2v Ni cad or 1.5v alkaline. Also, should I go with a hot or cold plug. Since I am concerned about all this extra heat from the battery on top of the heat from the combustion.

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

Let's not forget the possibility of fuel foaming, which will do just what Cougar described, i.e., run fine on the ground, but run sour, or quit, in the air.

The fuel tank, including the neck and metal tubing feed lines from the tank, must be completely isolated from any hard part of the model. Any hard part of the model, including the firewall.

Engines do not cop an attitude. They are inert lumps of metal. They do not "know" anything. For instance, where they are. If the conditions remain favorable, they will continue to run. If they do not, one must determine which condition changed in an unfavorable manner and why.

I would really ensure that the engine's fuel supply is not foaming the fuel first. Make sure there are no air leaks and that the clunk in the fuel tank is not so close to the back of the fuel tank that it can be suctioned to the rear wall of the tank, cutting off the flow of fuel. Ditto the vent line tubing inside of the fuel tank. It too can be pulled against the fuel tank wall and can cut off the outside air that is needed to permit the fuel to flow to the engine. Sometimes, when things "look okay", but the problem persists, it is necessary to just try something. Especially when it comes to internal fuel tank feed line length. Cut a 1/4" off of that feedline, just to be sure. Sometimes we cannot imagine how a fuel line can stretch far enough to block off the fuel flow, but it does.

Good luck solving your problem. Let us know what the solution was, when you find it.


Ed Cregger


edited by moderator

coupar

Boex: I would use a 1.2. As long as you use good wire and connections you should'nt have a problem. I kept the F plug but once you have on board glow the engine should be less sensitive to the plug type anyway. The plug only draws around 2 amps (so about 2+ watts of heat) so relative to the engine heat, this is nothing. The only pain is that you have to charge the battery. If it works for you, I believe there are products out there to let you use your 4.8 or 6v radio battery but then you risk using the radio's power too much. There is general comments from this thread that the G2300 gets better and more reliable with age (slow burn in). Once you get rid of the dead sticks and fly the thing, you may find after a while that the on board is'nt needed.


Ed:

You are way over my head buddy. Several very experienced guys from the club and I spent a lot of time with this engine and had all kinds of ideas resulting in some great performance improvements (many from this thread) with little or no impact on the sudden dead sticks. Another guy in the club had the same problem, same engine. After my experience, he adopted the on board glow early and it saved him a lot of money (and plane). So...after all that I guess we are just dummys because it was the fuel foaming after all! Mann we certainly did'nt think of that one. Thanks a bunch. Question though, would'nt the new carb and Perry pump have made some kind of difference to a fuel foaming problem? Why would adding an on board glow to the ignition component have helped a fuel problem?

Ed, after this experience, for $10, I plan on using on board glow any time I think it will help. I am building a twin right now. I've already decided it will have on board glow. I'm really sorry buddy but now I have the crutch I cant let go. I am really ashamed of myself......

doublesixes

I am also one of those enthusiasts that has experienced the ST malaise.
In its defense I can say that the engine always starts and produces lots of power but on the other hand, its inflight reliability is disappointing. One never knows if the engine will quit in any of the following situations:
a. On final, at idle.
b. When throttling up at any attitude.
c. In nose up attitudes.

It´s encouraging to hear from fellow pilots that this problem was solved by the use of an onboard plug and I will be implementing that cure ASAP. I will report my results here.

I have to respectfully disagree with Ed here where he claims that deadsticks are always the pilot´s fault. To prove my point I can say that my other OS powered engines never showed such unreliable operation given the fact that my building techniques remain consistent regardless of engine brands.

If this onboard plug cure really works, one would have to assume that what´s most adversly critical about ST engines, especially the larger ones, are the designs of the cylinder head where the combustion takes place, the transfer case and/or the carb. It seems the glow gets overwhelmed by a disproportionate amount of fuel it receives under such mentioned circumstances.

MikeRuth

The on board kept it lit because the motor continued to receive some fuel. With out the onboard the lack of just a little bit of fuel would cause the flame out.
the perry pump and carb would make no difference in that situation as the pump is still passing fuel with air in it.

while testing a new G2300 I noticed exactly the same problem only from a rich condition, it would flame out if to rich, but in that case a OS F (hotter than stock) plug solved the problem, as well as using on board with the stock plug.

I like my G2300 but it does have it's quirks. I tend to agree with the cyclinder head design could use some improvement. I would bet a twin plug head would do wonders for both the low and top end with or without the stock carb.

One other thing, as mentioned in other posts the carb nipple and tank center line need to be extemely close to one another. Even with a perry pump and carb, I have a tank high condition that makes setting up the idle very sensitive. Seems as though this alignment must be followed no matter what. Gravity is the culprit here.

Mike R

XJet

It's pretty obvious that there are two problems:

1. The ST line of engines is *very* sensitive to changes in fuel mixture. I've seen this on just about every "overbored" engine I've ever used. When the transfer ports become too shallow (large bore in a small casting) then quite a bit of choking can occur and there may also be some aggregation of the fuel droplets into larger ones due to the fact they're forced so close together as they pass through the transfer ports without the aid of combustion chamber heat (but that bit's speculation on my part.)

2. The ST carbs are not very good at fuel regulation at different throttle settings or with different airflows at a fixed setting.

Either of these problems on their own isn't too bad.

I've seen bad carbs on good engines and they still perform adequately (some folks find that the ST carbs work just fine on their OS engines for example)

I've also seen good carbs fix many of the woes that occur on a stock ST engine. This can also be verified by fitting an OS, Magnum or other "good" carby to an ST. This often produces a far more reliable engine with vastly improved throttling.

But, put the less than optimum ST carb on the hyper-sensitive ST engine and you have a recipe for disaster.

Careful tuning, painstaking selection of glowplug, meticulous testing of various props and tuning the formula for the fuel being used can all help mitigate some of the symptoms of this situation, but the root cause remains.

The fact that the engine will run so much better with permanent plug heat shows not that the head design is wrong but that the carb can't meter fuel well enough for the transfer port design of the ST engines.

ST either has to change their porting or use a better carb.

In the meantime, a *small* percentage of ST users will luck out and get a combination of prop, plug, fuel, tuning that provides reliability and throttling that meets their needs -- but a whole lot more folks will have to cope with deadsticks, lousy mid-range and other woes that OS, Thunder Tiger, Magnum, and a raft of other engine manufacturers seem able to avoid with ease.

However, so long as they're the cheapest option on the block they'll continue to sell.

And, so long as there are people (like myself) who are prepared to "fix" them so that they run properly, and people who buy because they have a religous brand-dedication, some people will find them okay.

I bet there are a lot of broken models as a result of ST's poor matching of carb to engine and I bet there are also a lot of STs that sit in boxes under modellers benches after their owners give up on them.

And, as I've said before, I just can't understand why ST doesn't bite the bullet and switch to a more conventional twi-needle carb such as those used by OS, Magnum, GMS, Thunder Tiger etc. For the sake of a few bucks in re-engineering they'd have a whole new (far better) engine and the vast majority of those threads that ***** about STs would disappear overnight.

As a consumer, I get annoyed when a manufacturer blames *me* for a design deficiency in their product rather than simply going out and fixing the problem they've clearly got.

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

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Deadsticks are the pilot's fault. Why? Because in modeldom, the pilot is the owner/operator/maintenance provider of his/her model. Kind of like the Captain of a ship. That is the context in which I am saying that the pilot is responsible for deadsticks. I'm not saying it to be a *****. I'm saying it so that the pilots out there know that if something needs fixing, it is up to them to fix it - even if they don't know how.

There is nothing unusual about the Super Tigre G2300 that makes it particularly difficult to get it to run right and consistently. No one is born having years of experience flying models. I wouldn't expect everyone to know everything. I sure as the dickens don't.

But here is what we know about the G2300:

Many of these engines need a considerable amount of running time before they become reliable. Anyone being in the hobby for any length of time knows that most glow engines need a good break-in. Ad copy be darned. Some engines come out of the box that need little break-in. This is a freak of nature, so to speak. Rejoice when you stumble upon one of these engines, but keep in mind that this is not the norm. Until an engine is well seated, reliability is sketchy. That's just the way it is, my friends.

This engine is so easy to start and handle that it is very likely that one will get a false sense of security with the engine - making a dead stick all the more surprising. I fly my engines in (after some bench running) on an old Ugly Stik type of model. This puts the engine in an environment of adequate cooling, easy accessibility and maneuver schedules that are not above its ability for lack of running time. These engines get sweeter and sweeter with more and more running time. Slow down and enjoy the view (smell the flowers). Give a newbie a turn at the sticks. It will help them and it will help accumulate running time on the engine. Everyone wins.

As mentioned previously in another post, fuel foaming will make any engine deadstick, stutter, etc. That is not the engine's fault, but that of the manufacturer of a the model if the fuel tank neck passes through the firewall, or if the fuel tank is directly supported by hard structural members and not loose packed foam. This practice alone causes the majority of the problems we read here on RCU about inconsistent engine running.


Ed Cregger

speedster 1919

My Feedback: (3)

XJET You call it luck----I must be a super lucky guy----Because I buy and help other flyers with problem engines when everyone else gives up. There are 2 things that are certain. The ST 2300 run proper will outlast an OS of like size........And the number 1 problem is a Super Tigre will run on the lean side when others won't giving some people a false sense of tune. I would guess over 95% is attributed to a rich low needle and the WOT is a touch lean to compensate for rich low. The other is trying to burn 15% in a Super Tigre..........

Not24

My Feedback: (1)

I agree with the rest, or at least that it may be true. I don't agree with the 15% thing. Now that my 2300 is thoroughly broken in I should try the lower nitro fuels again to see if there is any noticeable change in performance from when I did this early on. My early testing showed that there was no danger in detonation on 15% fuel, and that the idle and acceleration were much improved over 5%. The engine was not flyable on 0%, and 10% was okay, but not great. My engine is coming off the Sukhoi to do a re-evaluation after a season or two of flying. I'd like to also remove the pump for simplicity's sake. We shall see.

buzzingb

My Feedback: (2)

Thanks to Not24 I as still running my 2300 with many gallons through her now. Spinning a 17X6 right at 9000 rpms. Glow plugs, fuel, etc., doesn't matter the 2300, will run on most and all. The engine will run if only you can figure it out, but it is like life, figuring it out is the hard part.

blw

My Feedback: (3)

It has been noted many times that some of the ST 2300s came with bad carbs.

Not24

My Feedback: (1)

Buzz and I both are running Magnum carbs on ours. Made a really big improvement.

vasek

My Feedback: (4)

If i were to install a programmable on board glow for this engine> where should it be "ON" regarding the throttle stick position? (ex: 0 to 1/4 >ON ; 1/4 to full OFF (?)

i.e. where does it quit most often?

Thanx
V.

Not24

My Feedback: (1)

In the beginning,mine would quit at any throttle position. My opinion is that it wasn't drawing fuel, and going lean. I never felt as if an onboard glow would help a fuel starvation problem. However, to answer you question, anything below 1/3 throttle is where I would have the light on. Over that, and it should not need any help staying hot.

Depending on you application, 1/3 throttle may be just about right for normal cruising. So, another way to look at it is fly the model, then see where the throttle stick is when you are at a power setting that is somewhat lower than normal cuise flight. Make the glow ignite at that point. That way, it's not on most of the flight, wasting your onboard battery.