turboapache

Hi Guys, I have been reading this thread and I wonder about something. I do a lot of rebuilding of Saitos for the people in our club. One other thing comes to mind and that is to check the intake tube O rings. Just something to think about. Also does anyone know if there is a velocity stack on the problem eng. A good velocity stack can do wonders by cutting out the reversion factor in smoothing out an eng.

w8ye

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No truer words were ever spoken

Pit-Viper 1

My Feedback: (12)

Hey guys, i just came across this thread after having 2 Saito's with the same vibrating problems. A 1.00 & .62, Each has about a dozen flights on them. I first noticed the problem with busted header pipes on both with in the first 2-3 flights. Double checked the props and spinners and all was good there. So I just shrugged it off as maybe bad quality headers, but on both seemed weird.. I spent many hours today working on both, readjusted the valves, tried different tunning scenarios but they still make the planes do a funky dance. They both have excellent idle and transition. Using a 14x8 on the 1.00 and a 11X7 on the .62. I use cool power 30% syn/castor blend for fuel and was wondering if maybe that could be the problem. I've usually always used Coolpower 30% heli blend 100% syn w/ no castor with no problems. Can't seem to get it anymore though.

I guess my first question is what method of tunning do you use? I start with the high end first to achieve high rpm's then go back about 400-600 rpm from there. On the low end just to give me a good starting point I will lean it down slowly until it starts to fumble during transition. I always let it run for about 20 seconds after each adjustment before transitioning. Once it starts too cut out on acceleration I begin richening it up until it bogs down slightly in transition then lean it about 1/8-1/4 turn. It usually always seems to be setting about 1-1/14 turns in from flush when it's set on both motors. Then I check the high end again and set accordingly. Still dancing no matter what I do. Now I did notice as turboapache just mentioned, the o-ring on the .62 intake going into the carb had fuel coming out around the tube slightly. I did put a velocity stack on the 1.00 to see if this helps but didn't notice any change.

Now one thing I did do recently was to put the stock mufflers back on them after both headers broke. I was just using the header by crimping the ends shut slightly to give it some back pressure and tapping a nipple into the end and they both seemed to run better that way with substantially less vibration and a little more power. Not sure why, was thinking about trying the mufflers without baffles in them if there are any in to begin with, never had one apart.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Would be willing to send them to capable hands. Oh yeah one other thing, I am 1 mile above sea level in Denver where we fly. Thats why I use 30% seems to run better in all the engines I've ever owned.


Thanks Shane

liquid_TR

Eerrm.. Cool Power doesnt have a blend with castor oil - just synthetic. any chance you mean omega fuel (which doesnt have 30% nitro blend)?

Cool Power 30% nitro blends:

30% normal -> 17% oil
30% pro-pattern -> 20% oil
30% Heli -> 22% oil

Im sure you've got no problem tuning your engines (not too rich) but maybe if you are using a fuel blend over 20% oil - at your altitude the engine might not be happy with the excess amount of oil in the mixture.

speedster 1919

My Feedback: (3)

Liquid --Your now wrong on the coolpower. For some strange reason Coolpower 15% 4 stroke green says it has a blend with castor and I think the total oil is bumped to 18% from 17% normal...........I have no idea what the castor % is.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Morgan has done this castor bit in the Four Stroke Cool Power. It has caused a lot of confusion. The only indication of castor oil is a little sticker on the shoulder of the jug.

liquid_TR

Oh.. Ok - But in my defence that *4 stroke* blend is the only one i have never used.. so wrong assumption on my side; sorry.

Pit-Viper 1

My Feedback: (12)

After further checking I have indeed been using the Morgans Omega 25% syn/cas. blend. The only thing I could find at our LHS was Magnum #2 which is about 20% nitro and about 18% syn/cas blend made for 4 strokes. Guess what it got rid of about 90% of the vibes I was having.

Now the only problem is that it is just spewing fuel out of the exhaust. Still has excellent transition, an ever so slight bog about mid but only for a split second. Seeing how its a new fuel i was a little leary about leaning the LSN too much without further tunning. I'm sure thats all it needs now, also my flight times with a 14oz. tank went from 10 min to barely 7 with barely enough for a go around if needed. I did go about 1/2 leaner on the low end and did it ever start pouring out the smoke. Didn't smell hot and the engine temp before and after the flight was right at about 128*-135*F. Must be something in the fuel..


Shane

Hobbsy

My Feedback: (102)

I believe earlier you said you were running it 500 to 600 rpm rich from, that is really rich, 200 to 300 would be better. If it is smoking the midrange bog is from the low speed needle being too rich. Peak the the HS needle at absolute peak rpm and then set the LS needle until it as lean as you can get it without quitting when you open the throttle. The too needles effect each other, so the HS needs to be peaked since it has a fixed seat, the low speed needle setting changes with the throttle barrel motion.

bbagle1

I use cool power 30% heli in my saito and have not found a better fuel for it. I also run a YS which is why I stay away from castor. Did I read wrong or is there some benefit I am missing out on by not using castor? BTW my saito doesn't shake nearly as bad as my little YS.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

The 22% synthetic oil in 30 Heli does a pretty good job

Pit-Viper 1

My Feedback: (12)

Hobbsy,

Yeah i have been running it at that rich setting due to it still being very new and breaking in in the air. Guess just being a little over cautious.. Well got 3 more days off so I will give it a shot in the morning... Thanks Hobbsy


Shane

youngun

Well folks ..... I've have some things going on that have kept me from here since my last post.

First off - a "Thank You" is in order, again, for those that tried to help, and also for those that offered to try to get it running better for me. I see those posts now that I'm here to see them.

I also see that during my absence some have taken it upon themselves to post some rather derogatory things about me and this problem, without having met me, or so much as talked with me to have some bases for any opinion. The same as calling me a liar. WHY??? Is it just because I haven't been back to the computer? Or are you wanting to start trouble rather than admit that a Saito could possibly be bad? My guess is because they can't face the truth that the sacred cow saito, that they worship, could possibly put out a bad engine from their holy factory. Sheesh!! Any body can make a bad one. It is how they stand behind those that are bad that is important.

But, you believe what you want to - just don't be posting any more of your implications of lies about me on a public forum.

Below, if the pictures from my daughters camera worked out ok, you will see the offending Saito 100 that some seem to imply doesn't exist - which in fact does exist. If any want more pictures - it will have to be when someone is here with a camera that hooks up to the computer and that the person is willing to take some more shots of the engine and put them on the computer for me.


>>>>>>>Any that believe that Saitos are so wonderful are welcome to buy it from me and they can see for themselves. If you're so sold on Saito - then buy this one. Who knows - Maybe I'm wrong and you're right. Want to put your money on it? It's had 4 or 5 tanks of fuel run through it the way the Saito manual calls for. I got it at a discount price.

The cam timing has been checked - AGAIN - and found to have the timing marks lined up as Saito says they should be. I can't put it back the way it was from the factory because the marks were not lined up and there is no way of knowing what it was now. Your guess is as good as mine on that.

The valve lash has been re-set to .0025, which is within Saitos specs. It had one short run with the valves set to .0015. I shut it down because it still shook. (i didn't think the .0015 clearance would make much difference - and it didn't) The bearings turn very freely with no play or slop.

Positives:
It starts with a back-flip like some like to do (I got it to do that at least - too much compression for my electric starter now)
There is little oily mess to clean up - when compared to a 2 stroke engine clean up.
It DOES have that 4-cycle sound.

Negatives:
It shakes (vibrates) (you are warned)
Idle RPMs high at about 2300
Only will turn about 9000 with the APC 15x6

A last note;
I have come to the grudging acceptance that my days of getting out and flying are gone. So it really won't matter that much if the engine is right or not. Except that - for the amount the engine costs - it should have been quality. I may not be back here. If I don't answer your message, it won't be because you were ignored - it will be because I can't

RC was a lot of fun and I met a lot of very nice people doing it. Of course there were the stinkers too - but that's just people.
Any that can, need to get out and fly while they still can. It makes good memories. Try building a plane too.

Pit-Viper 1

My Feedback: (12)

Big Thanks to Hobbsy, your suggestion was right on the money. On the 1.00, Peaked the high end and leaned the low to just above where it would cut out and BAMO, she's purring like a kitten. A little more fine tunning on the low to get the idle smoother after some more run time and it should be golden. Going out to work on the .62 now, will let you know how it goes..


Shane

Iflyglow

My Feedback: (79)

What the heck is that big glob of crap on the carb for, is that securing some kind of home brewed velocity stack.[X(]

saitofreak

YG, the fact is there are more dud users than dud engines - if you can accept that, then your enjoyment of IC will multiply (as did mine). If you take the time and read thru the forums, and ask considered questions you will not be disappointed by the knowledge gained. Nothing personal, just a thought.

Pit-Viper 1

My Feedback: (12)

I'm getting around 9350 RPM's 14X8 wood prop on the 1.00.


Shane

Ken6PPC

And, don't forget that MANY claims of RPM's are ....well, exaggerated a little......

If you think about it, posting NORMAL RPM's isn't very exciting, but if you add a little, it is exciting. The next guy has to add a little more to be exciting, and so on. I'm certain most claims are honest and true, but some of the claims are pretty hard to believe.

I am getting 9300 peak RPM's on my Saito 100, using a MAS 15 x 6 and WC 15% Premium Xtra, after replacing my bearings. And, THAT IS TRUE, under the conditions I ran it in - at my altitude and humidity at the time, with MY fuel and glowplug, with MY tuning, on MY engine, etc. I richen it up to about 9000 for flying.

If you go back and read this entire saga of youngun's dilemma, 9000 RPM with a 15 x 6 is about the same performance that he is complaining about, and what the Saito rep told him was "normal". Youngun decided 9000 RPM with a 15 x 6 wasn't enough for his engine, perhaps partly due to some of the claims he had read on the forums. Personally, I think that is reasonable performance, and if I need more than that, I'll go to a larger engine.

So, beauty truly IS in the eye of the beholder!



Edited for Spieling Misteaks - AGIN!

liquid_TR

Well the thing is, when I bolted my saito 100 to the bench for a brief break-in, after first tank of fuel I leaned it out to max to see its performance. ( I dont like to waste gallons of fuel just for *break-in* on the bench). On 15x6 APC prop and 20% coolpower pro pattern with 20% synt oil - on the second tank gave a reading of 9740 RPM.. checked it.. 3 times with 3 different tachs.. I said "ok.. wow!"

And as I used it more and more, with little rich top-end, (I tune with ear only) the top rpm was ~9600 RPM just under peak rpm. No vibration; no detonation; no sagging; no overheating - incredible fuel efficiency and instant spool up. I dont know if thats exciting but thats my real stuff.

After about 5 gallons, I switched to 15% Coolpower with 18% MV synt oil (nitro is expensive here) and got 9500 RPM on the same prop with the same tuning process. There were no changes in the behavior of the engine except for even better fuel efficiency.

Its now about 12 gallons old and I still havent removed the valve covers for an inspection and its nearly as strong as my saito 125.

MR G

LiQuid,

You should probably open the valve covers and check the valve gap. You might could improve performance.

Saitos improve with age.

MR G

Ken6PPC

I wasn't referring to you, liquid_TR. Your Saito 100 is turning higher RPM's than mine, but there are SO many reasons why that could happen. Elevation, humidity, glow plug, fuel, internal friction, phase of the moon, whatever. I am happy that you are getting such great performance from your Saito 100, but I am still satisfied with the performance of mine. Mine does all that I can honestly expect from that engine and prop combo.

I would feel REALLY lucky if I got 9740 RPM with a 15*6 on 20%. In fact, if I thought 20% would do that for me, I'd try some. I would also be thrilled with just 200 more RPM on 15% nitro.

All I meant to say was that some RPM claims truly ARE rediculous, and may have contributed to youngun's dissatisfaction with his "normal" RPM.

Certainly not all claims of higher RPM than mine are wrong. No one has made me KING yet....., but I AM still hoping!

Oh, and if I was getting that much performance out of my 100, I don't know if I would check the valves until it started to degrade. In fact, I wouldn't want to touch ANYTHING on it! [8D]

liquid_TR

ahah that cracked me up! actually let me give that info too; Im at absolute sea level (actually field is near sea) and ambient temp and humidity was way over of my body's limits.. over 36*C


Exactly.. Im never afraid to check my HS needle every now and then, kiss it on the intake pipe; or hold it against my chest -
but as for the valves - I see no reason to fiddle with them until im convinced the way *da machine* sounds different than usual.

blw

My Feedback: (3)

They change over time. Checking them is very easy and a very good idea. You can run into problems when they get out of tolerance, and you may not hear it first.

liquid_TR

Well actually you have a point blw:

My 125 is about 20 gallons old - I made 2 valve adjustment in this period. Last season it crashed into a lake. After full disassembly and deep cleaning with isopropyl alcohol, Ive changed all the engine screws and gaskets with new ones, cleaned some carbon build up on the valves and near the glow plug hole, re positioned the cam and adjusted the valve gaps, oiled it up from head to toe and when I test run it; it was running much better than the original - interesting huh?

Right now both my saito 100 and 125 are in hibernation; filled up with ATF. I will get the 125 back to business in about 3 weeks time.
While preparing it to bolt on the plane, I'll have a quick look on the valve lashes. I find 0.05mm (50 microns) is just the right gap for my taste.

bbagle1

I know this post is about saito problems but does anyone have any advice on a good wood prop for 3d? I am thinking either pro zinger 15x5 or xoar 15x5. I wasn't sure if I could use a 16" prop. BTW I am at sea level and I will be using 30% nitro on a profile.