Saito 1.00 problems
10-11-2007, 11:31 AM
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Saito 1.00 problems
I had posted in Tachometer readings about problems with the Saito 100 I have.
It was suggested that I post here to see if anyone had any answers.
What was posted before;
first post -
My Saito 1.00 as it is now;
Fuel = Wildcat 15% with 4oz castor added (it was recommended by other 4 cycle users)
Prop = APC 15X6
the engine now has about 3/4 gallon through it, but not flown yet. (and maybe never - see below)
Idle RPM ~ 2200 to 2300
Max usable RPM ~ 9000
This engine was bought brand new and shook very badly (enough that I was concerned about it literally shaking the plane apart), would not rev up like my Saito 1.20 will rev with its APC 17X6, and had a max RPM of about 8500 with a usable max RPM of about 8000.
I pulled the cam and set the timing. Now, it shakes less - but seems to me to still be REALLY low on the power needed to turn the APC 15X6 prop as it should.
I called Horizon Hobbies tech service and he says the RPMs listed above (2200 to 2300 - 9000) sound normal to him. He suggested 30% heli fuel, which costs more than I want to pay
However most of the figures I have seen in this thread (thread in tachometer readings) for a similar combination are higher - some significantly higher.
I am very dissatisfied with this engine, and unless I can find some way (other than the 30% fuel idea) to get it to run right, this will be my last Saito. And probably my last 4 cycle model airplane engine.
I have already tried all the high and low speed needle tweaking - and with a tach. (not everything can be fixed by turning needles)
Anyone tried changing the timing (maybe advanced a tooth) to get one of these to run right?
Any suggestions - other than scrap it as expensive junk?
edited for;
I forgot to include,
Valve lash is set at 0.0015
second post -
The engine was bought from the online hobby store, wholesaletrains.com. All I can say is it was supposed to be new. The order and price I paid was for a new one.
So it was ether new with the timing wrong or I was sold a used engine as being new. Ether way isn't good.
I will have to try the tuning you suggested. When I was setting the top end, I leaned it until it would no longer increase the rpm, then backed off 300-400 rpms. I assumed it had peaked and I didn't want to damage the engine by being too lean. Although, the situation you described could be part of the problem if it had not in fact reached peak.
When setting the low end - I got to a point where any movement ether in or out hurt the idle. The low speed needle seems to be very touchy at this point.
I don't have a suitable 14 inch prop. The only one I have being a 14X10 APC. I'm guessing you are saying to use a 14X6 or 14X7, is that right? Taking into consideration the high idle speed?
You mentioned to not look for too much smoke. As it is set now - when at idle or running wide open, there isn't much smoke, not like a 2 stroke. But when it is running up from idle to wide open, there is a lot of smoke. But at least it isn't stumbling through the transition like it did before.
The low power, while being a problem, maybe could be lived with, but the shaking is the thing that makes me doubt its usability the most. If you have been around this hobby for a few years, you know that vibration is an enemy and can not only shake glue joints apart, but can kill your radio. So, it isn't to be taken lightly. It's a serious problem.
And that brings me to prop balancing. The best balancer that I have found is the Top Flite magnetic balancer. And that's what I now use for all my prop balancing. It takes a bit of time, but I feel that the time and effort spent here should pay off in a smoother running engine and protect my radio and plane.
But this 100 shakes, and shakes badly at mid range, even with all I've tried so far, and the mid range is probably where it would be flown most of the time. And that shouldn't be the case with a quality product. Nor should a person be expected to have to deal with this kind of problem after paying the price asked for a Saito.
The problem should not even exist in any engine in this price range. (or any engine sold for that matter)
Anyway .... For now, it looks like I have an engine that may not be usable .... but I will try the mixture adjustments you suggested ... I might try the prop later, when I put in another order ...... AND THANKS AGAIN!
Almost forgot,
About the valves .... the valve lash is set at 0.0015 with a known good quality feeler gage made years ago when quality things were made to high quality standards. (couldn't resist)
-----------------
As you can see the engine has problems. I'm finding out now that it's not all that rare with the 1.00.
I know some will feel the need to jump in and defend their choice of engines.
This isn't about attacks and defense. This is about factual problems and trying to find solutions - hopefully. [sm=rolleyes.gif]
It was suggested that I post here to see if anyone had any answers.
What was posted before;
first post -
My Saito 1.00 as it is now;
Fuel = Wildcat 15% with 4oz castor added (it was recommended by other 4 cycle users)
Prop = APC 15X6
the engine now has about 3/4 gallon through it, but not flown yet. (and maybe never - see below)
Idle RPM ~ 2200 to 2300
Max usable RPM ~ 9000
This engine was bought brand new and shook very badly (enough that I was concerned about it literally shaking the plane apart), would not rev up like my Saito 1.20 will rev with its APC 17X6, and had a max RPM of about 8500 with a usable max RPM of about 8000.
I pulled the cam and set the timing. Now, it shakes less - but seems to me to still be REALLY low on the power needed to turn the APC 15X6 prop as it should.
I called Horizon Hobbies tech service and he says the RPMs listed above (2200 to 2300 - 9000) sound normal to him. He suggested 30% heli fuel, which costs more than I want to pay
However most of the figures I have seen in this thread (thread in tachometer readings) for a similar combination are higher - some significantly higher.
I am very dissatisfied with this engine, and unless I can find some way (other than the 30% fuel idea) to get it to run right, this will be my last Saito. And probably my last 4 cycle model airplane engine.
I have already tried all the high and low speed needle tweaking - and with a tach. (not everything can be fixed by turning needles)
Anyone tried changing the timing (maybe advanced a tooth) to get one of these to run right?
Any suggestions - other than scrap it as expensive junk?
edited for;
I forgot to include,
Valve lash is set at 0.0015
second post -
The engine was bought from the online hobby store, wholesaletrains.com. All I can say is it was supposed to be new. The order and price I paid was for a new one.
So it was ether new with the timing wrong or I was sold a used engine as being new. Ether way isn't good.
I will have to try the tuning you suggested. When I was setting the top end, I leaned it until it would no longer increase the rpm, then backed off 300-400 rpms. I assumed it had peaked and I didn't want to damage the engine by being too lean. Although, the situation you described could be part of the problem if it had not in fact reached peak.
When setting the low end - I got to a point where any movement ether in or out hurt the idle. The low speed needle seems to be very touchy at this point.
I don't have a suitable 14 inch prop. The only one I have being a 14X10 APC. I'm guessing you are saying to use a 14X6 or 14X7, is that right? Taking into consideration the high idle speed?
You mentioned to not look for too much smoke. As it is set now - when at idle or running wide open, there isn't much smoke, not like a 2 stroke. But when it is running up from idle to wide open, there is a lot of smoke. But at least it isn't stumbling through the transition like it did before.
The low power, while being a problem, maybe could be lived with, but the shaking is the thing that makes me doubt its usability the most. If you have been around this hobby for a few years, you know that vibration is an enemy and can not only shake glue joints apart, but can kill your radio. So, it isn't to be taken lightly. It's a serious problem.
And that brings me to prop balancing. The best balancer that I have found is the Top Flite magnetic balancer. And that's what I now use for all my prop balancing. It takes a bit of time, but I feel that the time and effort spent here should pay off in a smoother running engine and protect my radio and plane.
But this 100 shakes, and shakes badly at mid range, even with all I've tried so far, and the mid range is probably where it would be flown most of the time. And that shouldn't be the case with a quality product. Nor should a person be expected to have to deal with this kind of problem after paying the price asked for a Saito.
The problem should not even exist in any engine in this price range. (or any engine sold for that matter)
Anyway .... For now, it looks like I have an engine that may not be usable .... but I will try the mixture adjustments you suggested ... I might try the prop later, when I put in another order ...... AND THANKS AGAIN!
Almost forgot,
About the valves .... the valve lash is set at 0.0015 with a known good quality feeler gage made years ago when quality things were made to high quality standards. (couldn't resist)
-----------------
As you can see the engine has problems. I'm finding out now that it's not all that rare with the 1.00.
I know some will feel the need to jump in and defend their choice of engines.
This isn't about attacks and defense. This is about factual problems and trying to find solutions - hopefully. [sm=rolleyes.gif]
10-11-2007, 01:05 PM
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RE: Saito 1.00 problems
I am no expert, but sounds like you are suffering a lot detonation. That tends to indicate you are too lean on the high speed needle. I have found setting the low speed needle for best acceleration off idle to be the best. If you are adjusting the low speed needle just for low idle you may have problems. The engine will idle better with time, I have seen dozens of Saitos and they seem to get better with age.
I also think the 15 X 6 prop is bit large, at least for break in. I think a 14 X 7 or 14 X 8 would do a bit better, at least it will let the engine accelerate faster.
Good luck,
Chip
I also think the 15 X 6 prop is bit large, at least for break in. I think a 14 X 7 or 14 X 8 would do a bit better, at least it will let the engine accelerate faster.
Good luck,
Chip
10-12-2007, 09:07 AM
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RE: Saito 1.00 problems
Thanks for the replys.
I'll have to order another prop in order to try it. I have been slowly getting a list together. (I'm sure all of you know how that is)
From reading what several others were using on their 100 and the RPMs they are getting, I just assumed the 15X6 was a good size for it. The thinking being - if theirs turns it - mine should too.
I can do that. Isn't that a bit more than is normally recommended?
The engine is mounted in a Carl Goldberg Super Chipmunk that was just finished a few months back. The engine was new at that time also. (supposedly) I don't have a test stand to mount it in - I never thought I would have a use for one before now, since I never had a bad engine that shook like this before. (might try to find one just for this problem engine)
So to answer - have I re-checked the cam gear? Not yet.
I tore it down before, set it with the crank positioned at TDC and the cam timing mark at BDC (toward the crank). It did vibrate less and ran a little better - but it still vibrates way to much to trust in a plane. I don't really want to subject the Chipmunk, and the radio that's in it, to that vibration again.
After the last tear down and the results, I have been waiting on ether some new information or another engine for the plane.
A lot of work went into that plane and I don't want a sorry engine to destroy it, as this one, like it is, surely will.
If it doesn't shake the plane apart first - it will get the radio, given enough time.
So ... That's why the thread - I'm looking for ether a new cure, or if there is no cure and this engine is just junk to find that out for sure.
Saito being silent about these vibrating engines and not standing behind them speaks volumes.
I also think the 15 X 6 prop is bit large, at least for break in. I think a 14 X 7 or 14 X 8 would do a bit better, at least it will let the engine accelerate faster.
From reading what several others were using on their 100 and the RPMs they are getting, I just assumed the 15X6 was a good size for it. The thinking being - if theirs turns it - mine should too.
Set both rocker arms to .003 thousands at TDC on the compression stroke.
Did you go back and see if you set the cam gear correctly?
So to answer - have I re-checked the cam gear? Not yet.
I tore it down before, set it with the crank positioned at TDC and the cam timing mark at BDC (toward the crank). It did vibrate less and ran a little better - but it still vibrates way to much to trust in a plane. I don't really want to subject the Chipmunk, and the radio that's in it, to that vibration again.
After the last tear down and the results, I have been waiting on ether some new information or another engine for the plane.
A lot of work went into that plane and I don't want a sorry engine to destroy it, as this one, like it is, surely will.
If it doesn't shake the plane apart first - it will get the radio, given enough time.
So ... That's why the thread - I'm looking for ether a new cure, or if there is no cure and this engine is just junk to find that out for sure.
Saito being silent about these vibrating engines and not standing behind them speaks volumes.
10-12-2007, 10:44 AM
#5
RE: Saito 1.00 problems
The valve settings are listed in the manual. .002 - .004 inches.
Vibrations are usually traced back to a rich setting somewhere. I've not heard of a new in the box engine being shipped out with the cam gear set incorrectly, so that is why I suggested it may be a tooth off now.
You could call Horizon about sending it in since you have the warranty.
Vibrations are usually traced back to a rich setting somewhere. I've not heard of a new in the box engine being shipped out with the cam gear set incorrectly, so that is why I suggested it may be a tooth off now.
You could call Horizon about sending it in since you have the warranty.
10-12-2007, 09:00 PM
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RE: Saito 1.00 problems
Have had similar vibration problems, although on a test stand. This thing is a real shaker compared to the OS 2-strokes I've typically run. This is my first 4-stroke and I, for one, am not sold on 4 cycle engines yet. Really touchy LS needle valve to say the least. My Saito 100 was mounted to a test stand and run according to the break-in instructions. Prop was APC 14x8 and fuel was Wildcat YS 20/20. Valves were set at .0004 prior to initial startup. The break-in went rather well except for the noted vibration that I considered excessive. After about an hour, the engine would idle at 2100-2200 rpm and top out at about 8800-9000 rpm. Final HS needle valve setting was 2 1/4 turns out.
After 90 minutes total run time mounted upright, I checked the valves and found that they had opened up considerably. I reset them to .0004 and inverted the engine because that's the way it's going to be mounted in my H9 60 size P51 Mustang. Wow . . whole new ball game. HS needle valve had to be opened an additional 1/4 turn and the LS needle valve had to be leaned slightly. Again it seems to have a good steady idle of 2100-2200 rpm and about the same top end. When left to idle for an extended period, the engine will die after 45 seconds. Yea, I've done my reading, but can't seem to come up with a cure for this. Other than that, throttle response is excellent in every way. When in the plane, the fuel lines will be considerably shorter than on the test stand which should help (I hope). Click on the link below to see it running inverted.
http://s88.photobucket.com/albums/k1...t=100_1246.flv
After 90 minutes total run time mounted upright, I checked the valves and found that they had opened up considerably. I reset them to .0004 and inverted the engine because that's the way it's going to be mounted in my H9 60 size P51 Mustang. Wow . . whole new ball game. HS needle valve had to be opened an additional 1/4 turn and the LS needle valve had to be leaned slightly. Again it seems to have a good steady idle of 2100-2200 rpm and about the same top end. When left to idle for an extended period, the engine will die after 45 seconds. Yea, I've done my reading, but can't seem to come up with a cure for this. Other than that, throttle response is excellent in every way. When in the plane, the fuel lines will be considerably shorter than on the test stand which should help (I hope). Click on the link below to see it running inverted.
http://s88.photobucket.com/albums/k1...t=100_1246.flv
10-12-2007, 09:19 PM
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RE: Saito 1.00 problems
Probably should have stated the tank height in the first post. For both test stands, the center of the tank was about 3/4" below the needle valve height. You're right about the 1/8 turn, even less.
10-12-2007, 09:40 PM
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RE: Saito 1.00 problems
I thinking about replacing the Saito in the Super Chipmunk with something that runs better, and with better quality - like maybe a K&B.
When it's out I may try to mess with it some - if I get a test stand to mount it in.
This thing has taught me a lesson - NO MORE Saitos - ever! Too many reports of vibrating engines.
And probably no 4 cycles of any kind.
A burnt child dreads the fire.
I can't understand people accepting defective, vibrating engines as being ok.
Unless it's just that once they have them, they are stuck with them like I am stuck with this one.
No more.
They are junk!
I remember hearing that Fox tested and ran every engine he produced. If it didn't measure up - it was culled and thrown in a junk box - so you could depend on getting a good engine when you bought his. Even the old McCoy engines ran smooth.
Maybe Saito ether doesn't test it's engines, or just passes the culls on through to the customer, if it is testing them at all. I don't know. But something has to be wrong when there are so many reports of vibrating engines.
I've had many model airplane engines and all were run rich when breaking them in. NONE - that's ZERO - vibrated --- until this Saito, and that's including my Saito 1.20. I must have gotten lucky on it.
Vibrating is normal? Or normal when rich? I don't think so. It's totally unacceptable to me.
I want to thank you folks for trying to help and offering your suggestions.
It's not your fault that this engine is junk. It's Saitos fault.
It just that there is something bad wrong with the engine, and it should not have ever left the factory.
Like the old saying "you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear"
Will some moderator please lock this thread. It should be available to other unsuspecting engine buyers. But at the same time - it's over because the answer is, it's not fixable by the consumer and the factory is hiding.
When it's out I may try to mess with it some - if I get a test stand to mount it in.
This thing has taught me a lesson - NO MORE Saitos - ever! Too many reports of vibrating engines.
And probably no 4 cycles of any kind.
A burnt child dreads the fire.
I can't understand people accepting defective, vibrating engines as being ok.
Unless it's just that once they have them, they are stuck with them like I am stuck with this one.
No more.
They are junk!
I remember hearing that Fox tested and ran every engine he produced. If it didn't measure up - it was culled and thrown in a junk box - so you could depend on getting a good engine when you bought his. Even the old McCoy engines ran smooth.
Maybe Saito ether doesn't test it's engines, or just passes the culls on through to the customer, if it is testing them at all. I don't know. But something has to be wrong when there are so many reports of vibrating engines.
I've had many model airplane engines and all were run rich when breaking them in. NONE - that's ZERO - vibrated --- until this Saito, and that's including my Saito 1.20. I must have gotten lucky on it.
Vibrating is normal? Or normal when rich? I don't think so. It's totally unacceptable to me.
I want to thank you folks for trying to help and offering your suggestions.
It's not your fault that this engine is junk. It's Saitos fault.
It just that there is something bad wrong with the engine, and it should not have ever left the factory.
Like the old saying "you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear"
Will some moderator please lock this thread. It should be available to other unsuspecting engine buyers. But at the same time - it's over because the answer is, it's not fixable by the consumer and the factory is hiding.
10-12-2007, 10:25 PM
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RE: Saito 1.00 problems
Hi there Youngun. If you are convinced the Saito is junk, then why dont you ask W8YE for his address and send it to him for evaluation?
Worst thing is he'ld throw it away for you. But perhaps he can fix it for you and tune it properly,Then ship it back to you for the cost of Fuel,Time and Shipping.....
Surely worth a try!!!
Don't be too apprehensive about the People here as I've now been using RCONLINE/RCUNIVERSE for 8 Years and Never had a problem that couldn't be worked out. Just make sure who you're dealing with is well Known.
W8YE is a Moderator............Need I say more?
Just My suggestion. JIMMY
Worst thing is he'ld throw it away for you. But perhaps he can fix it for you and tune it properly,Then ship it back to you for the cost of Fuel,Time and Shipping.....
Surely worth a try!!!
Don't be too apprehensive about the People here as I've now been using RCONLINE/RCUNIVERSE for 8 Years and Never had a problem that couldn't be worked out. Just make sure who you're dealing with is well Known.
W8YE is a Moderator............Need I say more?
Just My suggestion. JIMMY
10-12-2007, 10:53 PM
#12
RE: Saito 1.00 problems
The other Saito 100 I have was traded to me slightly used. When received, I instantly saw why the guy didn't like the engine and got rid of it for a 2 stroke.
The idle needle was still at the factory setting of flush with the plastic throttle arm. I bet it was probably a dancing devil for him?
Whatever the original problem, I've certainly enjoyed the engine.
The idle needle was still at the factory setting of flush with the plastic throttle arm. I bet it was probably a dancing devil for him?
Whatever the original problem, I've certainly enjoyed the engine.
10-13-2007, 05:45 AM
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RE: Saito 1.00 problems
Youngun -Your too fast to throw in the towel. First you said you have a 125 Saito your perfectly happy with and now all Saito's are junk. At 3/4 a gallon your not broke in yet and your total oil content is 21.125%. Just for giggles put in a new plug and 15% wildcat premium blend at 18% total oil. Reprop with a 14x6 and check your timing again. With valve covers off and at TDC . You should be able to turn equal small amounts clockwise and counter clockwise to see each valve to start to open.
10-16-2007, 05:30 PM
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RE: Saito 1.00 problems
The problem is not with shaky Saito's, but shakey fingers (aka twiddley finger syndrome). If you can't get a Saito to run, get a 2 stroke.
10-17-2007, 08:26 AM
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RE: Saito 1.00 problems
Yougun, if you're willing to ship your engine to me I'll send it back running like a Swiss watch, w8ye and Barry will both verify that I will send it back.
10-17-2007, 12:49 PM
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RE: Saito 1.00 problems
I have no doubt that O'Hobbs would dial that Saito in real sweet. But will YG learn anything? BTW, I think you regulars are all stand up guys for helping out the rest of us.
10-19-2007, 05:10 AM
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RE: Saito 1.00 problems
mmmmm? No word from YG - he has not taken up the generous offers from the folks above. Is that perhaps because he's just another rabble rouser taking a stab to get some sort of reaction? 99.99% of the problems that occur with Saito's are the user's fault. They may require a bit of maintenance, but have one of the lowest failure rates of any brand out there.
So study the forums and multitude of posts on the subject, learn something, and quit whining!
So study the forums and multitude of posts on the subject, learn something, and quit whining!
10-19-2007, 08:00 AM
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RE: Saito 1.00 problems
SF, it has been my contention for quite a few years that when you see a rant as above that (1) they can't admit that they can't tune an engine or (2) they're just blowin smoke and don't even have the engine in question. There was a similar situation with a Saito 2.20 where the guy claimed that he took the 2.20 back, got an OS 1.60, put it on the plane and test flew it in a matter of 15 minutes. I can't see a Hobby Shop making that exchange nor the timeline being doable.
10-20-2007, 09:57 AM
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RE: Saito 1.00 problems
ORIGINAL: Hobbsy
SF, it has been my contention for quite a few years that when you see a rant as above that (1) they can't admit that they can't tune an engine or (2) they're just blowin smoke and don't even have the engine in question. There was a similar situation with a Saito 2.20 where the guy claimed that he took the 2.20 back, got an OS 1.60, put it on the plane and test flew it in a matter of 15 minutes. I can't see a Hobby Shop making that exchange nor the timeline being doable.
SF, it has been my contention for quite a few years that when you see a rant as above that (1) they can't admit that they can't tune an engine or (2) they're just blowin smoke and don't even have the engine in question. There was a similar situation with a Saito 2.20 where the guy claimed that he took the 2.20 back, got an OS 1.60, put it on the plane and test flew it in a matter of 15 minutes. I can't see a Hobby Shop making that exchange nor the timeline being doable.
Hobbsy, I hate to admit it, but you are probably 100% right.
Youngun, if you really are having such problems, take Hobby up on his VERY generous offer.
If you don't feel comfortable sending your engine to Hobbsy, send it to Horizon and let them take a look at it. I'm POSITVE you will be happy with your engine afterwards. I had one Saito that I sent back to Horizon. It was replaced, and I've been happy ever after with it.
10-20-2007, 06:09 PM
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RE: Saito 1.00 problems
Ken, I had to send one back about 3 years ago, it was one of the very last .50s Saito made. It had soft compression, I pulled the cylinder off of the base and could see a small black speck near the intake valve, thinking it was something holding the intake valve open I tried to dislodge it. It turned out to be a very small casting flaw in the head casting and compression was leaking around the valve seat. I sent it to Horizon on Thursday and had it back Tuesday with a new cylinder. Fastest turn around ever.
10-20-2007, 07:02 PM
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RE: Saito 1.00 problems
Yeah Hobbsy, I have had great luck with Saitos.
To be honest, I STILL don't know for certain what was wrong with that Saito that Horizon replaced for me. They couldn't get it to duplicate what it was doing to me, but they replaced it anyway. The replacement engine has never given me a moment of trouble.
Horizon may have lost money on that one engine, but they certainly gained a customer for life! Customer service simply does not GET any better than that!
To be honest, I STILL don't know for certain what was wrong with that Saito that Horizon replaced for me. They couldn't get it to duplicate what it was doing to me, but they replaced it anyway. The replacement engine has never given me a moment of trouble.
Horizon may have lost money on that one engine, but they certainly gained a customer for life! Customer service simply does not GET any better than that!