proptop

My Feedback: (8)

I was surfin' last night, and stumbled across something in the C/L speed forums...

There is a thread about Fox now using a DLC (Diamond Like Coating ) in an Alum. sleeve for some of their engines.
The DLC is applied through a PVD (Physical Vapor Deposition )

Just thought I'd post this...now I gotta do some Googlin' and read up some more on those processes

http://www.foxmanufacturing.com/

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

One of the new Enya's has this type cylinder wall?

jessiej

Interesting. I think fox has a .60 and a .35, both CL.I would imagine the material would be somewhat similar to the now discontinued Norvels though they did not use a separate liner. I would think the material would be harder than chrome and much harder than nickle.

Fox lists an ABC piston and liner for the venerable Fox .35. I wonder if the new ceramic .35 liner will fit the old engine?

jess

proptop

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Does Enya have it too? I've heard of this process before...I think during one of our "peeling" threads?
It sounds like it would be quite durable, and from what I read, allows a smoother (40% less friction than Chrome ) cylinder wall.
It's only a few (3 to 6 ) microns thick, and doesn't build up the wall thickness so the bore needs to be finish sized before the process.

Jessie...I was thinking the same thing...if the .35 sleeve/piston set would fit the old .35 stunt? It's a lot lighter too, so it would make an already light engine even lighter [8D] Maybe combine that with the "Hemi" mod? It's been a long time since I've flown C/L...

downunder

The new Fox is ceramic like the Norvels (altough I prefer the Norvel integral fins for better heat transfer). Calling it DLC is a bit of a stretch though because the ceramic is aluminium oxide which is what a ruby (another gem stone) is made from. True diamond coatings can't be done on aluminium because the process needs temperatures way above the melting point of aluminium. Diamond coating can be done on steel though so watch out for ringed pistons in a diamond coated liner one day. Ceramic is much harder than chrome and I believe it's porous as well so it tends to hold an oil film but diamond is far harder still (from memory at least 10 times harder).

I don't know who writes Fox's advertising, but saying the new 60 tore the wings off a CL stunter is laughable. There's no way any CL 60 could tear the wings off any half-way-decent stunter.

proptop

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The guys in the C/L speed forum said that it can be used on cranks too, specifically the crankpin.

I have seen "black" cranks in r/c car engines...it's a wear and corrosion coating...what treatment is that?

I also found it difficult to believe the part of the stunter continuing to fly w/o wings It musta been going reeeellllyyyy fast, huh![X(]
That's something the C/L speed guys should try, huh? Maybe they could go even faster without wings? (is that centrifugal or centripital force? )

gkamysz

My Feedback: (19)

I suspected it was anodizing. Marketing is a wonderful thing.

Diamond wear coatings on steel are not new. I remember calling XADC out on drawings in the aerospace industry 10 years ago. You could put that on a crankpin if you were so inclined.

http://www.armoloyil.com/xadc.html

http://www.diamondcoating.net/

proptop

My Feedback: (8)

Yeah...I know it's been around for a while...just thought it was interesting that Fox was the one that was doing it...
There was a thread a little while ago asking if Fox was still in business IIRC.

I remember reading in Hot Rod magazine back in the mid 80's, about several different types of hard/wear resistant coatings on cylinders, cranks, cams, and polymer coatings (for better lubrication ) on piston skirts, etc. Remember when Bill Elliott cleaned everybody's clock in NASCAR in the mid 80's?

I think Webra uses a similar process in their bigger/more expensive glow engines? Not sure, but doesn't the 1.45 or their 1.60 use something other than Chrome or Nickle? (seems I recall reading of them trying some new/different stuff a few years ago )

gkamysz

My Feedback: (19)

Yeah there is a line of Webras with AAR liners. Aluminum piston, aluminum liner, ringed. I would assume that these are anodized, but have not seen one personally. Ceramic coating seems to be pretty common in upgrade pistons for motorsport, though many new high performance autos are using things like that in their engines out of the factory.

If you saw the note about JP-8 engines on Fox's site they are going after government contracts. I haven't looked this year but there are always a few modeling related companies bidding on micro engine contracts. I don't know why they made such a big thing on their site about a CL engine. Obviously, the only people following the company are oldtimers.

jessiej

Is your implication that the only people knowlegable about the product are "old", or are you implying that younger people are ignorant of developments in the hobby industry?

jess

gkamysz

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I'm implying the young people are ignorant of CL. And with that ignorant of any products Fox may have to offer.

quepasa

Greg, MOST folks here are ignorant of what FOX MFG. has to offer! Age has nothing to do with it.

proptop

My Feedback: (8)

That's why I started this post...it's good to see Fox still doing something...and something different at that. (actually, they always were different, huh? )

Even if the 2 "new" offerings are based on older designs and C/L engines, maybe they are the beginnings of some new stuff that could be comming down the pike?

I let Greg's "oldtimer" bit slide...wondering if anyone else would notice and ask

jessiej

Yes it is. Especially in light of the incredible number of different models Fox produced over the years. I have enjoyed Fox engines in CL, FF, and RC.

jess

f16man

The black color of the crank comes from an acid wash, helps retain oil film, it is an etching process called parkerizeing [probably not spelled right] we used this process with all steel parts on lycoming and continental aircraft engines .

gkamysz

My Feedback: (19)

How do I clarify my comment? I was trying to make note of the small segment of the modeling population that actually knows of Fox. They don't even advertise in the AMA magazine which has the most CL content of all US magazines. I would bet that electric will have more impact in CL than the new Fox offerings. Their account of the new engines doesn't impress me. Wings came off? Of what, a 50 year old airplane, give me a break. RPM figures would have been more convincing.

Nobody mentioned that the price of the new .60 is 300 USD. And they've already said prices are going up first of the year.

AMB

This may become the wave of the future from an environmental point chrome plating has end waste issues and may very well
becoming too expensive to clean up . These other liner coatings from what you folks have posted may very well be an improvement
also. Norvels issue I think at least in the small ones were sloppy manufacturing tolerances not the liner treatments;
This sounds like it would be a boon to RC cars and trucks where many engines have a short life due to hot and lean, there are some
great engines out there OS, Rossi and quite sure a few others but also a lot of junk. No engine will survive user abuse
(the last statement refers mainly to the RC cars and trucks) and of course those engines do not have the cooling advantage of good cooling such as in a plane. Ringed engines with steel liners are out of the loop and a few more of these are showing up martin

On control line seems more is being offered a number of ARFs are showing up engines are being offered with both C;L and RC carbs
( well the have always been there but seem to have a little more presence ) . in my case small r/c planes powered with small diesels which do not need a lot of space and at least for me fit the park flyer catagory, my time is limited and cannot hit the field with the 40 and up size lately martin

One the last issue see the 1/2 A and Diesel site on the mini-telemaster conversioms

One more thought folks a lot of you have highly technical skills that you apply in the model field I am not saying that others
are not intelligent ,some of this stuff is not in their background, learning to set up carb with some is a challenge but of course
learnable. and everyone helps to get their issue solved on these sites,

proptop

My Feedback: (8)

Parkerizing...that's also a treatment on some guns isn't it? (also "PK" screws )

Greg...this middle aged "geezer" was just bustin' 'em on ya... (no worries, huh?! )


So...do ya think a larger engine (like a .46-.91 ) with a ringless piston set-up would be practical? The Eagle C/L engine is ringed...the Webra engines are ringed...is there a limitation there somehow? Looks like some more studying is necessary on my part.

gkamysz

My Feedback: (19)

I just wanted to be sure that nobody thought I was poking fun at age. Reading it back now, it doesn't quite have the effect I wanted it to have.

jessiej

It was a good post Dave. It provoked some good discussion. Thanks.

jess

gkamysz

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http://www.webraengines.com/motor.ph...=EN&search=aar

Webra's AAR.