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whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?

Old 09-23-2009, 06:03 PM
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jcervantes11
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Default whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?

Hey guys, what is the different between tune pipe and tune muffler? I believe tune muffler is one piece that connect to the motor, and tune pipe is a tune pipe which is connected to a manifold with a rubber thingy. Can someone clearfy? Thanks!!
Old 09-23-2009, 06:48 PM
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the Wasp
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?

EDITED,

where is everybody ??

mainly you got it right, but for a Tuned Pipe we call the Manifold a "Header"

and the Tuned Pipe usually makes more power at high RPM,, the Header can be cut to make Peack power (enhance the word "Tuned"), shorten the Header to much and you will loose power and or make it hard to tune the Needles, you will need to buy a new Header,,

and,, that rubber thingy is usually referred to as a "coupler"

Jim
Old 09-23-2009, 07:06 PM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?

if you really want to understand how a Peaky Tuned Pipe works and feel go find yourself a 1973 Suzuki TM 125 and ride it,, at one moment you will feel as if the engine has no power like a heavy truck in to high a gear, then in the next moment the tire is spinning the engine is screaming rocks are flying and you here yourself saying wow

http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Suzuki_TM125

Jim
Old 09-23-2009, 09:35 PM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?


ORIGINAL: jcervantes11

Hey guys, what is the different between tune pipe and tune muffler? I believe tune muffler is one piece that connect to the motor, and tune pipe is a tune pipe which is connected to a manifold with a rubber thingy. Can someone clearfy? Thanks!!
You are correct.

A tuned muffler looks like and fits like a regular can muffler although bigger. It provides a boost in power but not generally as much as a full tuned pipe. http://www.jettengineering.com/accy/jettstreamblock.jpg

A tuned pipe is a separate affair that connects to a header bolted to the engine, via a silicone connector. There are different designs with different levels of boost and manners, and a tuned pipe can get more peak hp out of the engine than a tuned muffler. http://www.macspro.com/tunedpipes.asp

Wasp: The ultimate crap-your-pants demonstration of pipe peakiness is a Kawasaki H-1 500. I own two Yammie 2-strokes, an '81 RD350LC and an '85 RZ350R (somewhat uncommon Canadian full fairing model). The RD has less peak power, but due to the lack of the "power valve" to soften the transition onto the pipes, to wheelie it simply crack the throttle at 5k in second gear, then when it reaches 6800 and the pipes hit, "ping" it becomes a unicycle and the grins begin. If I can ever afford the Trinity 485cc top end kit for the RZ things could get real silly. I like two stroke street bikes.

MJD
Old 09-23-2009, 10:25 PM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?

watch long enough for the throttle twist

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtlPX-Lz9u8

yes, the Kawasaki H-1 500, in my Highschool days we had 2 guys here that had the 500 and 750, some guy thought he had a hot CB 750 Honda, he wanted to race the Kaw 750, but the Kaw owner told the guy he needed to race the 500 first, well needless to say the guy never came back to raced the 750..

Jim
Old 09-24-2009, 05:22 AM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?

a muffler is:
a manifold (yes or no integrated in body), + gas expansion volume, + (optional) extra gas expansion chambers, + gas outlet
The muffler is tuned with volume and header

A tuned pipe is:
a manifold (header), + A diverging cone(s), + (optional) A cylindrical part, a baffle or converging cone, a stinger outlet pipe. + added damper chambers (optional)
The tuned pipe is tuned with header, cones, cylindrical part, countercone and total volume, stinger length and dia.

Tuned pipe peaky? It all depends on the design and Q-factor. Broadband pipes are not peaky at all, but provide less power gain.
Old 09-24-2009, 08:10 AM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?


ORIGINAL: the Wasp

watch long enough for the throttle twist
Mmmm, love that sound. I could play that to get to sleep at night.

After four, the sound just gets muddied..

[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ratfuML9QA&feature=related]Kawwie H-3?[/link]

MJD
Old 09-24-2009, 08:23 AM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?



I once raced my friends Suzy 500x3 against a Triumph 750 in the mid 70-ties. The first mile was for the Suzy loud and clear, but then at top speed I had to reduce throttle due to heat problems, and the Triumph roared by soon enough.
So much for air cooled two strokes against four stroke thumpers.

Old 09-24-2009, 08:44 AM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?

I bought the RD350LC in 1981 when it came out to replace the RD400 air cooled. Huge difference! It's amazing what clean jetting and not overheating will do for performance. At the time it was a great street squirt bike. Still is if you have one.

I am in lust with the idea of a Trinity top end kit for my RZ, but food and kids win the money battle right now. Some people have said "why bother" to make the bike into something it isn't, modern bikes are far better etc.. yawn..

Mine is almost stock, but with Toomey pipes (pipes that actually outperform stock versus cost money and look different) and a Fox shock. It is actually a parts bike, built with a brand new frame, and the engine has about 6000km. Right now I am puttering with minor bodywork repairs, hope to ride a few more times before the '09-'10 ice age sets in. Over the winter the bodywork and tank all comes off for some genuine repairs and touchups. It is good to know there are companies making decal sets still, so I could theoretically refinish it and redecal it fresh and new-like. But it looks okay now, apart from the fractured windscreen, see the "temporary" packing tape on the left side.. new one coming.

Oh yeah OP - to stay ON TOPIC - please see the tuned pipes hanging out each side. These are tuned pipes that bolt right to the engine.. we don't do that on model engines though.

MJD
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Old 09-24-2009, 08:56 AM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?

Most model builders think they can get away with much smaller devices, and still have the power.[]
Old 09-24-2009, 09:53 AM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?

Let's stay on subject, which to my knowledge is glow-engines...

Any tuned exhaust is primarily designed to extract more power from a glow engine, by supercharging.
It will essentially pull some mixture into the near-end of the exhaust (the header, if you will) and inject it back into the cylinder, just before the exhaust shuts (with the intake by-pass closed).

A full-length pipe is rather long and a tuned exhaust, can be a folded version of the same...

The flow is turned around (i.e. it begins going backward and then continues forward) and the 'reflective' component is at the front...
The reflected wave is also turned around (i.e. it also begins going backward and then continues forward) and pushes the extra mixture back into the cylinder.

This is the reason virtually all "Magic Mufflers" have in internal tube, connected to the entrance...


A straight, full length pipe is obviously more efficient, so its boost is greater.

Dual-cone pipes are indeed more peaky, while cone-and-disk pipes generally have a wider effective range.


I beileve PĂ© said something about Helmholz resonators?

Old 09-24-2009, 11:01 AM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?

There was another thread somewhere about how tuned piped work. I too was under the impression that pipes pulled extra fresh mixture out into the pipe and then pushed it back in. This is how it is usually explained. The reality is that the pipe theory deals with pressure waves not gas flows. So the pipe creates a low pressure, to pull fresh mix into the cylinder, then creates if operating at tuned frequency, a high pressure to prevent the fresh mixture from being pushed out of the cylinder. It's easier for most people to visualize the moving flow, so that's probably why it's commonly accepted.

One of the club members years ago had an RZ500 I think it was, four cylinder two stroke. I remember the quad pipes hanging out the back. That was one mean sounding machine.
Old 09-24-2009, 11:03 AM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?

We were on subject and tuned pipes work on the same principle on glow or ignition two stroke engines of any displacement. The OP got the answer he was looking for, AFAIK all he wanted to know was the terminology difference for clarification, and not a technical dissertation on the operation of various forms of tuned pipes. Then those who answered previously chatted for a few posts about a common related interest and posted some examples of tuned pipes in other applications. I don't see the problem..

As for the OP - tuned mufflers are compact, convenient, and easy to fit, and they provide some boost but are generally not capable of providing the same level of boost as a full tuned pipe. Jett for example, has the standard Jettstream tuned muffler system for it's .40/.46/.50/.60 engines, but also offers the SS muffler or the race muffler, each tuned for higher rpm ranges and more specialized use. The use of tuned mufflers in pylon racing was a subject of debate some years ago as the people who started using them basically called them mufflers, while those who didn't think they should be used called them warmed-over tuned pipes contrary to the rules. They are in wide use so I guess the muffler crowd won. They are an excellent choice for someone who wants to try an aftermarket system on their sport engines for a little more power, without the learning curve and logistics of a tuned pipe installation. For example, there are Jettstream and Nelson Ultrathrust tuned mufflers for the very common OS .46 FX, and you can pick up a fair amount of top end power and still have a lot of your midrange freedom just by bolting one on and using an appropriate prop for the effective rpm range of course.

MJD
Old 09-24-2009, 11:32 AM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?


ORIGINAL: gkamysz
The reality is that the pipe theory deals with pressure waves not gas flows.
The pressure wave is a longitudinal wave (like sound also is) and there cannot be any change in pressure without a movement or a change in movement of the gas molecules.

So the description of a flowing gas that changes speed is also valid.
Old 09-24-2009, 01:05 PM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?

Dar mentioned Helmholtz. That is the main principle and realm of the tuned muffler as used in most applications where tuned pipes are banned.
Let me explain without going too deep into theory:
Every muffler (two stroke side gas dump) has a volume, and a wall thickness that connects the cylinder with the muffler. Helmholtz calls it wall thickness and orifice, we call that a header.
Every side gas dump has it's own resonant frequency. If the frequency is adjusted to the engine timing and rpm it is a tuned muffler. By no means a tuned pipe.
In a tuned pipe pressure waves are more important than oscillating gas masses, though to some extent they play a role as well. A pressure wave does not care about direction. It goes wherever it is not restricted, and it does not need a force to change direction. Gas flow very much cares about flow direction, and like any mass needs a force to change direction. Forces translate in pressure differences when considering gas flow. Here the pressure waves come in handy, and they can be (and have been) used to advantage.
One more morcel of truth: Gas flow requires rounded corners or they cannot negotiate change of direction. Pressure waves do not care.
Old 09-24-2009, 01:35 PM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?

Greg,


It truly is about pressure waves, but a pressure wave is also what can potentially blow-out your ear-drum, should it exert excessive pressure.

So it is about gas-flow too... The negative pressure wave that follows the initial positive wave, created by unmasking of the exhaust port by the rising piston, will be there whether there is a tuned-pipe, or not.

The magnitude of this negative pulse is greater, if there is a megaphone (convergent cone), but it is there always.

This negative pressure pulse extracts a relatively small amount of fresh mixture from the cylinder, typically less than 20% of its swept volume.
It is temporarily 'stored' in the first two centimeters of the header - not in the pipe.

Then, the high-pressure wave, reflected by the convergent cone, or by the disk (of the tuned-pipe, or 'Magic muffler'), pushes this fresh mixture back into the cylinder.

If the engine is spinning fast enough for the bypass port(s) to have already closed, this extra fresh mixture would make the cylinder contain more than its fill of fresh mixture; hence supercharging.

If the engine is turning more slowly, the effect will be partially diminished by the still-open bypasses getting blown back.

If the engine is turning faster, the reflected wave would hit the side of the piston, at the exhaust; and no supercharging will take place.

Old 09-24-2009, 01:37 PM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?

As we don't want to discuss theory here I'll just refer to "Design and Simulation of Two-Stroke Engines" by Gordon P. Blair. ISBN#1560916850
Old 09-24-2009, 02:23 PM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?

A tuned pipe, or back in my MX days expansion chamber, has the same effect on a two stroke engine as changing camshaft lift/duration in a four stroke engine. Lots of power to be made, or not, depending on what else complements the whole engine package.
Old 09-24-2009, 02:51 PM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?

My simple answer to the original question is that the "Tuned muffler", commonly called a 1/4 wave pipe, is a fixed volume and designed to resonate at a given frequency. A "tuned pipe", commonly called a full wave pipe, is adjustable by lengthening or shortening the header to change the frequency at which it will resonate. With the tuned muffler, you must change props until you find the one that gives the proper RPM for the muffler to give the best boost. With the tuned pipe, you can adjust the length to better suit the RPM range you want to boost.

Blessings, Terry
Old 09-24-2009, 03:41 PM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?

Actually the simple answer is even simpler that that - he just asked for clarification on which one looked like what so he could get them straight. But your post is helpful and actually adds to that level of understanding. Other than chatting about cool two stroke bikes fitted with tuned pipes, all the rest is just people posturing by showing all the other responders how much tuned pipe knowledge they have. Talk about staying on subject..

It's not uncommon for two-stroke street bikes to pop up in model engine conversations - I've encountered a fair number of RC engine/airplane enthusiasts who are tickled by them. Maybe I should fit glow plugs to my RZ and run it on glow fuel..?

gcamysz - the fastest I ever rode a bike anywhere anytime was on a hopped up RZ500 - yup, it is a 4 cylinder two stroke. Fun machine. The Suzuki Gamma 500 came out in '85 up here, and it was the power king of the later era of two stroke street machines and was generally a better machine all round than the RZ, kind of a softened up GP bike. The original example sent to Canada by Yamaha that was pictued on the cover of Cycle Canada is ten miles from me for sale.. for more than I can handle right now. The saddest two-stroke bike deal ever was the Bimota 500 twin - the prototypes were monsters, all kinds of power and handling and manners and sex appeal.. then the project was canned. [&o] Ther eis someone in the UK trying to build a two stroke twin using two Honda CR500 jugs.. what a respect-demanding beast that engine would be. Polaris makes an 1100 or 1200cc triple for small helicopters.

MJD
Old 09-24-2009, 05:49 PM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?

I said it was "my simple answer". I thought it might give him some basis to decide which type would work best for him. A 1/4 pipe can be very effective if the rpm it boosts work well for the plane it is in. However, if the prop it takes to get the proper loading for the pipe is too small to work well on the plane it is installed in, then the 1/4 pipe can do more harm than good. In that instance, a stock muffler could be the better choice. A full wave pipe can help you use the best prop for the combination.

I couldn't care less about two stroke bikes.
Old 09-24-2009, 08:41 PM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?

A 1/4 wave tuned muffler can be 'tuned' some too by using extensions on the Jett/Nelson types or header length adjustments on Magic Muffler, MVVS, MACS, Irvine Super Silencer or home made types.

Terry in LP
Old 09-24-2009, 11:36 PM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?

I think the '1/4 length' is rather misleading...

Wth all things being equal (gas temperature, exhaust duration, port size...), the 'working section' of a 'full-length' pipe and that of a 'folded pipe' (Magic Muffler), are virtually the same.

Because most tuned-pipes have an attenuating section, for sound deadening, it is extended further still.

But eventually, the total length of a magic muffler setup, is about 60% of the total length of a full length pipe; from the exhaust to its very rear.
Compared to an un-muffled pipe, it is nearly 80%...


So, 1/4 is a rather optimistic figure.
Old 09-25-2009, 10:41 AM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?

A 1/4 wave pipe is also called a mini pipe. I don't know that they were common outside of the US. They were most often seen on 1/4 midgets in the US. They are just a short parallel walled exhaust pipe. This works like a tuned pipe but only half of the effect is available. The result of correct tuning is that some time after the exhaust gasses have blown down, there is low pressure condition(below atmospheric) in the pipe near the exhaust port and in the cylinder. This helps move fresh charge from the crankcase to the cylinder.

Sometimes one can find cutaways of heli or car pipes. There are quite a few different designs in existence.
Old 09-25-2009, 01:25 PM
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Default RE: whats the different between tune muffler and tune pipe?


ORIGINAL: gkamysz

...I don't know that they were common outside of the US. They were most often seen on 1/4 midgets in the US. They are just a short parallel walled exhaust pipe. This works like a tuned pipe but only half of the effect is available.
Greg,


The MVVS #3248, #3253 and the ones for the smaller engines, are folded pipes (as I wrote, none utilize only a 1/4 wave).
So are the Rossi #3015 (.40-.53 size) and the ones of its siblings.

The Webra Quickie engine had one too and so, I believe, did the Super Tigre X.40 and others.

They are very much sourced outside the US...


I believe K&B had similar devices for their 3.5 cc, 6.5 cc and 7.5 cc engines...


Because the gas-flow within a folded pipe must be reversed, it is not as effective as is a straight tuned-pipe.
It is also less effective, because it does not have diverging and converging cones...

But if you compare the boost in power to that of a quiet tuned-pipe (i.e. a wide RPM range, cone and disk design), it is about 80% as high.
You will typically see 400 RPM less on a sport .40-.61 engine, from a tuned silencer.

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