Campgems

In addition to the basket case 91 I got the other day, I also aquired a 150 and a 180. Both looked OK. I decided to pull the 150 down and give it a cleaning and a fresh set of gaskets and O Rings. when I got the rocker covers off, Two things popped out. First was the lithium grease, not a tiny smear on the push rod and valve ends, but if it were toothpaste, there would be enough to brush you teeth with. This engine and run quite a bit with the stuff and it doesn't look like it is desolving or migrating. My first thought was to clean it all out as I know that unlike greases can some times blend in to some unfriendly goo. Am I on the right tracke here?

Next, I found that the exhaust side rocker arm bracket was black, IEoff a golden knight. Then I noticed that the arm pivot screws were both from the same side, IEboth screwed from the left ( intake) side. OKIt looks like I need a new one. Then I took the rocker covers off the 180 and it has the same, both bracket have the screw head on the left side. The 91 has one on the right and one on the left. Have I got a problem here? Do Ineed a new bracket for both engines. By the way, I found the guy couldn't start a screw straight as one of the rocker cover holes on the 180 was buggered up. Turns out it was just the first couple threads and after I chased it with a screw, it's fine.

Last, is there a front and back to the push rod? I noticed a "dot" on one side of the 91 rod, but I didn't see anything on the 150 rod. THere was evidence of rubbing on the back plate though.

Thanks again.

Don

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

To identify the front and back of the Connecting Rod look for the chamfer in the big bore

The chamfered side goes towards the crank.

The straight side goes towards the back plate

The dot could be either place

If there are two chamfers it doesn't matter

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

There's a left and right rocker arm stand

The screw comes in from the outside and the threads are on the inside look for how the rocker arm tip align with the valve stem

The old Saito 91's the screws came in from the inside but the new ones are from the outside

Campgems

W8ye, thanks again for your help. The rocker brackets as you describe is what made sense to me. I guess my conclusion is that the guy I bought the engines from couldn't tell right from left, and he had a problem starting screws in the right rocker cover.

Last question, I think, and I'm failrly sure the ansere is yes, are the rocker brackets the same between the 150 and 180. Horizon doesn't show the alpha codes for both on the 150 brackets, but the rocker covers are the same and the gaskets from one fit the other. I'm expecting them to be the same.

Don

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

The 120S, 150, 180, and 220 all use the same rocker arm stands

Campgems

Thanks again W8ye, ( do you have a name I can use?)

That is what I expected. Just wanted to make sure before placing the order.

A little agervation, but I'm sure I made a good buy on the stuff. A Saito 91, Saito 150, and Saito 180 and a Twist 150 with servos all for $335. Add about $80 worth of repar parts. and It still seems like a good deal to me, not to my wife though.

Don

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

It's Jim

I'm sure what your wife considers a junk pile is a gold mine to you and would be to me also

You'd be surprised what some people do mechanically. Well I guess not now?

Campgems

Jim, I received the parts, but the lack of a detailed drawing is driving me nuts. The little problem at hand is the tiny O ring that fitss "OVER'" the spray bar. The nut and spring were gone and the spray bar was badly damaged from attempts to pull it out of the carb body. When I took it out, there was no evidence that the O ring in question went between the spray bar flange and the inside of the carb body. Iam inclined to put it under the needle valve detent spring and the body. Does this sound right to you?

Given the parts in the carb gasket set, I'll probably have some more questions.

Thanks

Don

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

That is correct

Campgems

OK, I found that the fine o-ring goes between the detent spring and carb body as I expected. I cheated though, I pulled the nut and spring off another carb.

Ido have another question though. There are two intake manifold gaskets. One is in a second envlope with a lable Venton. It dawned on me, after I got them mixed that one was probably for the head and the other the carb body. Which one goes in the head? the Venton one? There is a second set in the gasket set I bought also, so If needed, I can just put them in right.

Last, Iwas having trougle tightening down the spary bar and as it was turning in the body,I noticed the long diamondspray cut and that there was hole in the spray bar that aligned with the hole in the body that the fuel nipple screws into. Ifound a small drill the the the shank would just fit the hole in the spray bar and used it for a tommy bar to tighten up the nut. It looks as if the spray bar turning may have saved me some issues later as the diamond cut could have ended up in any posisition without the use of the tommy bar. The cut is aligned so it is pointing at the manifold now.

Don

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

The nitrile O-ring in the little package goes between the intake manifold and the cylinder head

Campgems

Jim, I got the last of the saito parts today for my 150 and 180. Both had a damaged right side rocker arm bracket. Both were identical to the left side in that the rocker arm pivot entered from the left side. Well, the two replacements I got are both marked "Right" on the package and are #45s, but they are identical to the left sides. Icalled Horizon and talked to them and there was Zero technical help, but she offered to have the check stock and if they were OK, she was going to send two more. My guess is that I'm going to end up with two more left side bracketsI got to wondering if Saito's right and our right were on different sides, but close inspection of the parts drawings shows #44 or the left, or intake side and #45 on the right, exhaust side. IT will be interesting to see what shows up next week.

All and all,what startedout as three simple fixesis becoming a real pain.

Hobbsy

My Feedback: (102)

Don, the nitril O-ring that Jim mentioned has a little trick that goes with it. When installing the O-ring place it in the head first then push the intake tube into it. Its virtually impossible to get it to seat properly when you slide it onto the intake tube first., Dave

Campgems

I found that out. Also the flange end on the intake manifold needs to the head. About the same with the upper rubber seals on the push rod covers. If they aren't in place in the rocker bracket, you will never get them sealed OK.

Gennerally, Ithink the saitos are beter though out engines for service, but they have a bunch of "I gotsa Yas" built in, with no mention of them in the manual or are they shown on the one size fits all parts list.

Like the piston on the 91 isn't quite symetrical. I had a bind on the crank after bolting down the jug.I made sure that I had kept the bevel on the rod to the crank. Ihad to pull the piston and do a 180 on the rod, then everything was fine there.

The spray bar needs to be held with a tommy bar (dead end of a drill) through the hole where the fuel nipple screws into the carb body, or you can't the the diamond cut on the spray bar aligned to the manifold, in fact you may not get the little O ring in the right place as it's not shown on any drawings I've seen.

The first saito Idid was a little 45 that had a broken mounting lug on each side. I found a replacement case and started putting things back. I found that wile my new 45 special case was identical to the old case, there were two differenceds. The case was about 0.003" shorter and the back place would rub the crank. Also, the deck for the cam housing was also about 0.003" short and you need a stack of gaskets or the gears bound up. Isolved both by straighting out a piece of coke can and using it for shim stock. Had to sand off the paint, but it made a nice 0.004" gasket.

I"m sure before I get this latch batch running, I'm going to find some more suspirses. Also, I'm not as hard on the guy that used to own them after my rocker arm brackets being wrong. After an hour of studying them, I found the difference besides the screw hole being wrong. The hole for the push rod cover is drilled on an angle. it isn't noticable from the top, but looking from the bottom, it is way off. That is to allow for the angle of the push rods. Now I know why the engine was wearing the boots pulled down. You can't get the pushrod in with the boot in place unless it's the right rocker bracket. Edit added' If you try to force it down, you will break off the locating flange that positisions the cover at the valve springs. I have to wait for the camera batterys to charge before I can post a photo of this.

Don

Hobbsy

My Feedback: (102)

Don, after you learn all the tricks you'll have, "braggin rights fer bein more expurter".

Campgems

You know what an expert is don't you. Kind of break it down Has been drip under pressur. ExSpurt.

Don

ArcticCatRider

My Feedback: (6)

THe rubbing on the backplate is from jamming an electric starter on the spinner...no big deal.

Campgems

Well, I got a call from Horizon about an hour ago. It turns out that their whole stock of the Rocker arm bracket,right side (SAI150s45) were labled wrong and were in fact were the left side ones. They are refunding my money, and said it will probably be over a month before Saito can get them the correct ones.

This brings up an interesting question. I have a 150 and a 180 that both had the wrong brackets on the right side. That is just to much concidence for me, and I suspect that Saito had shipped wrong side parts for some time. Ican see a guy getting one, but two wrong sounds like outside help to me.

Now for the search. I"ve got two engines and a plane that gets to set idle until I can get the right parts. My only hope is finding a LHS that may have one in stock that isn't labled wrong.

Don.

Hobbsy

My Feedback: (102)

Don, I have a new set of those for a 1.50, I replaced the cylinder on my 1.50 because I ham fisted the intake manifold nut. If they're a pair I'll let you know. I think you're talking about the towers that bolt down to the head. I used my old ones on the new cylinder.

Hobbsy

My Feedback: (102)

Don, the towers I have are a pair, here is a shot of them on my Saito 1.50, it is one of the very first produced and has the 14.4 to 1 compression. The pivot screw heads face left just like the new pair does.

Campgems

Hummm. Jim, can you kick in there.

I've been under the imprssion that the pivot screws came ni from the outside, IE the heads on oppsite sides of the engine. Jim re-enforced that. When I got the "right side" brackets from Horizoin, they looked like the one on your right side. When I chalenged them, they said that they checked stock and in fact all of the stock of the PN was packaged wrong. They have pulled them as avaiable. Yet, I have two engines that looked as yours does. Maybe three, i'll check that one today, and this is what is leading to my confusion. I'm going to try to get thruough to Saito service today and see what they have to say.

By the way, the exploded drawing shows the pins coming from oppisite sides of the engine, not the same direction.

I talked to guy at Advantage Hobby yesterday who had worked for Saito and he told me that the pins came in from opposite sides. I'm guessing that somewhere along the line, Saito has made #44 and #45 into #44.5 so one side fits both. The pin wouldn't be an issue by its self, but the angle of the push rod hole would. I've got to do some more checking now.

Don

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Don, Hobbsy and I talked about this on the phone last night. We decided that the important thing was the angle of the pushrod hole.

Bill Robison had mentioned something about how the rocker arm aligns over the valve but this may not be a good indication as there is often slop in the mounting and the stand can be twisted slightly.

Campgems

There is an obvious angle to hte hole and it is agumented by the angle of the surface on the head. I took some photos of one I took off the engine and found that the alignment ring was broken. I attributed the broke alingnment ring to the dificulty in getting the backed screwed down due to the push rod angle. Just a guess on that. By the way, when that ring breaks, the leftoverscan jam in thevalve spring. Ihad to fish the pieces out.

This is what started this whole issre.

The first photo is of the broken alignment ring. The next two are a side and Rear view of the bracket in question. A letter R drill makes a good fit for checking the alignment. I'll get some photos of the brackets on the two engines without pushrods to see what they look like and a shot of the "wrong labled" new ones to see.

Don

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

In our discussion, The pushrod guide for the left stand when looking from the rear of the engine should angle more forward to align with the front cam.

Hobbsy

My Feedback: (102)

Anyway, I have the correct one for the intake side and the exaust if you need them, Thanks, Dave