evolution .61 poor performance
 

Ye all knowing RC people:

I looked a good bit for this information on Google and here on RCU. I also found the manual for the engine on Evolutions site, but it's pretty generic.

I bought a low wing trainer with an Evolution .61 2 stroke. I pulled the muffler off and there are no deposits in the engine at all. The overall condition leads me to believe the engine is new. Regardless, I am having touble I am trying to work out.

The engine transistions a tiny bit rough, surges in the air, cuts back at WOT, starts perfectly and is smooth as silk once it stabalizes at an engine speed. The surging is very wierd. That is my main concern. It seems to be running lean. If I richen it up on the HS needle it runs a little better, but the funny thing is it putting out a LOT of raw fuel in the exhaust. I puddles and drips out the pipe. After 2-3 flights my entire plane is sticky. In the air there is a steady white plume trail behind the plane. It really looks like it's blowing out as much fuel as it's using.

*I'm running 10% Cool power
*The glow plug is good and clean and new
*Everything appears to be tight, and doesn't appear to leak fuel/oil from anywhere (eg. under the carb)
*The engine has excellent compression
*The "set right needles" have been moved several times in an effort to tune it. I know they are factory preset, but I don't know the history of the engine, so I don't know if they had been moved by the previous owner or not.
*The engine does not get hot, maybe 200 F at WOT 60seconds on the bench.
*I'm running a 11x7 three blade prop.
*Fuel tank is in-line (physically) with the main needle about 2" away. If anything it might be MAYBE 1/8" lower, Maybe.... Hard to tell.
*The lines are new and no bubbles appear to be present. No foam either.

I am not new to glow, but am still learning. I set the LS and HS needles just as I have on other engines. It just doesn't respond to changes like the other engines. I can't figure out why it's running so rich though it acts like it's running lean.

Information or links to other posts would be appreciated.

Thanks all!

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

Forgot to mention, we worked with it for about 10 flights last night. It runs a little better, but still all the same troubles. I dead sticked one time.

In straight and level flight it surges. On the initial climb it pulls STRONG but cuts back and flattens at around 50ft altitude.

I'm going to get some CP 15% ASAP and try it too.

Far as I know it has the H9 "Super plug" in it now. I have a stock of OS #8's and will try that ASAP although I think it'll be the wrong way to go.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

Try either an OS A3 plug, or a 4 stroke plug like the OS F or Saito SS. The A3 will probably be the best one for the engine.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

I am going to keep looking, but I just read something about a missing o-ring in the carb from the factory. Any idea what that's all about?

Thanks for the plug recommendations. I'll try to stop and get them from the LHS tonight.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

Spiral,


The first thing you must do is to change the fuel you are using...

Morgan Fuels, the manufacturer of 'CruelPower' specifically recommends their own 'Omega™' fuel for ABC/ABN type engine, which your Evolution engine is.
Omega has 4.9% castor oil and 12.1% synthetic oil (a total of 17%).

American made synthetic oils in general (Cooper's Ester based oil is an exception) offer a lower lubricity, compared to castor oil.
Klotz rate their own BéNOL at 10 and their Techniplate KL100 at only 5. This means your engine will wear excessively when you use fuel that does not contain castor oil.


Also, castor oil has a 100°F higher flash-point and even more than that higher burn-point. This means you engine will very likely fry if you ever expose it to a 'lean run', with your current choice of fuel...

The running qualities of any engine are also much better with a good measure of castor oil in the fuel... I believe many people consider this hobby less enjoyable, or have even strayed away from it, only because of trouble in engine adjustments and running, due to using all-synthetic fuels and never experiencing the qualities of castor oil...


... Your description sounds like your engine is being run too lean...
The main needle must be adjusted 100-150 RPM rich of maximum, with the plane's nose pointed straight up.

There is no corresponding number for level attitude. This adjustment must relate only to the nose-up attitude!


I am sure Barry (blw) might disagree, but I think the OS A3 is too hot. You need a medium heat plug for this engine and the TowerPower is a good candidate.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

Thank you for the information. I'll take that to the LHS when I buy fuel. I'm going to get an A3 and a type F plug and a Tower Power if they have it.

A buddy suggested 15%: but the plane is overpowered as it is, for that reason there's no reason to put additional strain on the motor, and I don't think switching to 15% is going to make it run any better over 10% (unless my 10% is bad or the lubricant is causing problems)

I am going to check the o-ring when I get home too.

Dumb question: If Evolution sells or designed the motor and they say it needs a H9 "super plug", aside from the fact no one carries a super plug, why would another plug work better? I mean if another plug made that much difference, why wouldn't they recommend it or sell the motor with it? Or at least buy plug type "X" and put their name on it, in which case buying type "X" would be the same thing as a super plug?

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

I have a .61 and it runs great. However, the HS needle "clicker" (holds the needle steady) loosened up and was letting the needle turn during flight. I removed the HS needle, bent the "clicker" back so it would hold the needle steady and I have had no other trouble. Mine runs great about 1 3/4 to 2 turns out on HS. Low speed arm is set about 2/3 towards rear of plane. I am using Cool Power 15% and the Hangar 9 Super plug.

Great running engine. After you get it set, very little twisting required after that. Maybe just a click or two one way or the other depending on temp, humidity, etc.

Also, to prevent air leaks around the HS needle, I took a pair of forceps and stretched a 1/2" long piece of tygon over the needle and needle housing. Also, helps
reinforce the "clicker."

Good luck

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

An Evolution engine that is running too cold will have all of the symptoms described. A good way to test these engines is to watch how they run on the first crank of the day. See if you can get it to accept the throttle by advancing it gently. I've had to back off, advance, back off some, etc until the crankcase cleared. I got pretty good at it half of the time before W8YE gave me a hotter plug to try. If it is a plug problem, you may be surprised at how much more power you will get out of the engine, and the smooth throttle response.

I'm not sure now if the ones I've been around shipped with the H9 plug. I always pull them after some amount of break in time.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

Jim,


Please read through my post #5.

Your current 'peace and quiet' may only be temporary.


You can go into the [link=http://www.morganfuel.com/omega_main.htm]Morgan's Omega page[/link].

The CP you are using will keep you model cleaner, but will not be advantageous for the wellbeing of your engine, which is its main purpose, I believe.

If you insist on all-synthetic lube, you better get some fuel from Europe, with Motul Micro, or with Sachs Aerosynth II/III/Aurosave, or go to Brian at [link=http://www.cooperfuels.com/]Cooper Fuels[/link] and get the wear protection Ester based oil will provide.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

G'day Mate,
Just try one thing, a 2 blade 12x6 prop, don't change anything else, except for tuning, & see if it makes a diference.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

Put a little castor in your Coolpower. Stay with a 2 cycle plug like a Tower, OS8, Fox RC long,KB-1L and avoid 4 stroke plugs . Take the stupid limiters off and make sure detent spring is firm against needle because I have seen the needles float around and they will drive you nuts. The OS springs are a good replacement.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

In reply to all:

First, it's not my intention to argue or conflict any advise given here. I hate it when people do that to me.

I went to the LHS last night. Both LHS around carry the same thing. CP and Omega which are both made by the same company. There was another metal can of Glow Power or something, but it was full synthetic. I printed off the replies to this post and bought the closest thing I could find to the advice given at that time. I stuck with 10% for consistancy (I actually want to know what's causing the problem, not what masks it by turning up the nitro) and because there's no reason this motor can't run on 10% nitro.

I ended up with Omega 10% which is supposedly 10% nitro, 18% oil (20% castor and 80% synthetic by oil volume). It's the highest castor content I could find locally. If I can get the engine running properly, I'll do some more research and try to follow the advice given and get a higher castor content fuel. If nothing else, I have a jug of fresh new fuel to rule that out.

The LHS did not have A3 or Tower Power plugs. They DID have OS8 and type "F" and Hanger 9 "sport plugs" (whatever that is). I got OS #8 plugs so I'll work that into the tuning.

I pulled the glow plug that was in the engine. It looks to me like a Tower Power when compared to the pics I got off Tower's site. That's my unprofessional opinion. The only marking on the plug is an "H"

I bought a 12x6 Master Airscrew with my last Tower order. I plan to switch to APC props from now on, but that's what I have at the moment. Don't beat me up too bad. I'll try the 12x6 though. The manual calls for a 12x6. From what I read the 11x7 three blade I run is actually a little bigger than the 12x6's three blade equivelent anyways. I'd really like to stick with the three blade, but I'll try to tune out with the 12x6 because it was recommended here.

I pulled the carb last night. As luck would have it I DO have the supposed missing o-ring. Oh, well. So much for simple fixes.

BTW, thanks for posting the needle settings Safebet.

Lastly, I still have the clickers. I kept them to hold the needles still in flight BUT I adjust them around so they don't limit my ummmm, needle adjustment but they still hold the adjustment in flight.

I didn't get to run the motor last night. I was met at the door with honey-do's

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

The game plan:

-Use the fresh fuel I have
-Plug in an OS #8 plug, because because I have no idea what the current plug is and therefore can't buy one like it even if I do get it running properly with the original plug.
-I think I'll pull the limiters off and start with needle settings like Safebet. I'll reinstall the clickers later of push a piece of fuel line on the needles to hold it.
-I'm going to check the tank, lines, etc. etc. AGAIN. :eek:
-Tune it exactly like DarZeelon mentioned. Typically I point the nose up at about 30 degrees and tune, but I'll stand it on the tail this time.

Regardless of the outcome, I am going to try the 12x6 2-blade. Also will try an A3, Tower Power plug, and a fuel with high castor percentage as soon as I get my hands on them. Maybe a type F plug too.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

If you're going to try plugs, the A3 is probably hotter than the F.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

Spiral --First off the Omega is 17% total oil of which is 70% syn. and 30% castor. So your fine on castor content. The A3 is hotter than the #8 and colder than the #F . Tune for the #8 which can be had by any LHS in the nation.............If you were at 0% nitro the A3 would be an option....If you can't point plane straight up in the air for 30 seconds and not loose RPM , then your not ready to put plane up..........Millions of engines run OS#8 on 0-20% nitro .. I personally like the Fox RC long at $2.35 a copy with the same heat range as the OS #8 at about $7...............

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

Speedster- Are you sure the F is hotter than the A3?

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

30% castor. I guess I was misinformed. All the better then.

I'm gonna try to fire it up with the #8 and fresh fuel tonight. I gonna quit working 16hrs a day. Good grief. It's cutting into my airplane time! [:o]

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

Correction I deadsticked the plane Spiral.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

The 4 stroke plugs have to stay hotter because they don't fire on every stroke. OS's new plug chart is a little confusing. The A3 is touted as a economy #8 and a tad hotter............
http://www.osengines.com/accys/glowplugs.html
The chart is wacky The A3 is listed twice for air and surface . In the air it is positioned toward medium and car the hottest. If the average car user puts an A3 and their high nitro fuels it is rated as plugs per gallon. All older charts rate an F as HOT............
The # F is listed as the coldest airplane plug , but yet the # F is interchanged with MC14 listed as very hot and Fox Miracle as hot . Every manufacturer of 4 stroke plugs list them as med hot or hot but OS.........
http://www.scootworks.com/rdrc/gloplugs.html

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

I haven't tried the F in an Evolution engine, but I have used Saito SS 4 stroke plugs. I think the SS plugs are somewhere between the 8 and A3 from the way the engines react. I could be wrong, of course, but I would take the A3 over the SS. The whole idea is to get the Evo to burn off the fuel efficiently, which it does with hotter plugs. All of the Evos that I've been around stumble, sputter a bit, and have throttle up problems with OS 8s.

I'm not an expert on glow plugs, but it seems the F keeps heat longer for 4 stroke operation. There could be a difference between getting hotter and keeping the element glowing. That's what I'm thinking right now, but I could be wrong on this too.

Your link to scooterworks lists the F as being medium hot.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

Listen BUDDY, I don't know who you think you are!!![&o]


Correction.. Drew4556 deadsticked it in...... And I must mention the most beautiful landings of the night, performed by "the Druid"

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

Yes we shall try the new fuel and clow plug and prop this Sunday and see what we get. Surely one of these options will work

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

I also have a .61 Evolution and have had the same 'surging' problem...I moved the fuel tank lower than the carb., which is sometine hard to tell how it's lined up and it 'vented' better and didn't surge...

jim

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

Yea, thanks. You're right, it is hard to tell about the fuel tank height in relation to the engine. The tank looks like 1/8" lower, maybe level with the engine. The only way I can change the height is a smaller tank or maybe reshape the floor of the tank so it sits lower. It's something to keep in mind though if I can't get it ironed out.

Funny you should mention the vent, no one else has until I was talking to a freind after the Sunday fly (ing attempt). I am going to check that the vent is off the roof of the tank. I'm pretty sure it is, but I'll check.

FYI.

We had a crew of three working on the engine.
First, the engine speed dropped when I pulled the glow ignitor off, so I changed the plug to a #8 (which I was going to do anyways). The drop went away.
We changed the 11x7 3-blade to a 12x6 2-blade. The 12x6 is exactly what is recommended by the manf.
Engine run like crap. Rough transition, rough everything, flaming out, tons of fuel blowing out, and hydraulic locked 20 times because the carb flooded..

I bent the stops out on the LS needle. We closed both needles, opened the HS up 2.5 turns and just cracked the LS..... I didn't think it would start bc the LS needle was open just 1/16 turn off of closed. Whad'ya know. She run pretty good. Transition was MUCH better, it actually had something that resembled a top speed, idle was the same.[sm=idea.gif]

I don't know what to say about the LS needle. It doesn't make sense. Anyways, there has been a huge improvement in the performance. I didn't get to flight test it because Murphy showed up and caused a bunch of problems...... The day wasn't a total loss, I was bummed bc I couldn't fly though.[sm=cry_smile.gif]

I am going to note all the advice and test each one guys. I'm still planning to use an A3 and an F plug to see if hotter will clean up the exhaust some.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

All of the Evolutions I've been exposed to eventually had to have at least one of the needle valves adjusted beyond the stop setting.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

Same with those I've been around. I always suggest taking them off.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

I've woundered about taking off the needle 'blocker'...I feel better about giving it a try! spial-72 helped in the descission

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

Done! Thanks to all for the info.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

Enjoyed your note on working with the .61 Evelotion...I have a friend who does mechanical work and annuals on full sized planes. I'm trying to costantly fly a J-3 cub...the .61 was way over powering the plane, switched to a O.S. .46 with a 3 bladed prop...much better control, especially with the tork problems and engine performance. He listens to my sad stories on engine performance, tips rolls. 3D's, and underperforming rudder servo tork on take-offs with my cub. He has helped a lot with suggestions on tank location, engine venting, running rich and lean and a good lecture on tork. I guess the mechanics of flying R/C vs. the full scale is... we are just smaller.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

Ditto, thanks guys for all the help. She at least runs properly now. I can take the fine tuning from here.

Last question for now: How do you tell what glow plugs are? Can you tell by looking at it? The plug I started with and the OS #8 and the Tower Power plug all look the same to me. Is it the electrode (term?) length inside the plug? As far as I can tell the threaded barrels are the same length.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

The best way to learn about glow plugs is to experience them.

The Tower Power is very much like the OS two stoke plugs. They must be made by OS?

In the four stroke plugs the OS "F" and the Saito "SS" and the Y-S four stroke plug all look about the same. They run about the same also.

The standards of the industry right now are the OS "8" and OS "F". Other plugs are usually compared to them

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

An update for those interested:

My tuning has evolved:

I now run Omega 15%. A buddy recommended the synthetic version, but the Omega was recommended earlier. I also finally got the bright idea to call customer service. They recommended the Omega.

The OS#8 plug run ok, I guess. Much better than when I started this mess. I tried a 4 stroke plug, a H9 "super plug" supposedly OEM for this engine. The 4 stroke plug cleaned up the engine performance quite a bit IF I can get the engine running in the proper direction. With the OS#8 it starts backward about 25% of the time, with the 4 stroke plug about 50%. From my research and advice this is an indication of too hot a plug - causes detonation (preignition) and she starts and runs backward. I'm not too sure what to do about this yet. It runs like crap with a cooler plug and barely at all with the 10% (cooler?) fuel.

Anyways, what I have now is an engine that runs quite well, with LOTS of power IF it doesn't start backward AND I can get it warmed up.

It still appears to be very running rich (visually) although tuning says it's just right.

It is very difficult to keep the engine temp up. The air is getting quite cool now. I've never run an engine in the winter time (actually this is my first year with glow) but if I pull the engine to idle with an extended glide, for example landing, the engine seems to cool enough that it'll spit and die on the transition back up (like a touch and go.) If I fly it and have fun, or even just putter around the skies, it acts pretty good.

The low speed needle is secured from vibrating-loosing adjustment by an o-ring I installed around the needle. Works well.
The high speed is secured by a piece of fuel line slipped over the knob. Works well.

Is the ambient temps too cool? Could I install a shield in front to limit the amount of air over the engine and keep the temps up? Y'know like they do on big diesel trucks in front of the radiator up north?

Any takers?

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

The spitting and dying out is an indication of either the low speed being set too rich, and/or a cold plug. Considering your location, I wouldn't worry about the temperature at all.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

Hmmmm. I expect my plug is not too cold. Actually the H9 (OS #F) it's supposed to be quite hot for a 2 stroke.

It was 40-50F that day.... Not too cold, but I didn't know how it would effect the engine. At least I can rule that out. Thank you.

...still plugging away. I guess I'll follow someone else's recommendation and pull the carb and needle sets apart for a good cleaning.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

Pull the lines off the carb, pull the needle assy (count the turns) and use compressed air to blow
every which way thru all the open orfices. Re-assy.

I use the H9 plug in all mine Evo's and have never had a problem. I live in the same climate
you do. Don't worry about it being too cold. If it's that cold, got no business going.

Keep us posted.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

Well I pulled the carb completely apart. It's pretty simple actually. I knew as soon as I had all the pieces laid out that dirt/sludge/dried oil was not the problem, but I washed everything in my parts washer anyway. I blew all pieces out and noted any passages taking special care to make sure they were unobstructed and undamaged.

I have to start it yet. Why does it rain on every weekend that I have some flying time?

I'll keep ya posted.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

Spiral 72,

Could you take a quick look at the following thread and see if it might apply to your situation?
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=6829281

Thanks,
Doug

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

Back flushing the remote needle valve sometimes helps if there is debris in there. I flush glow fuel thru a coffee filter to see it.

Outside air temps probably have nothing to do with how your engine runs. I suggest at least trying an A3 plug and seeing if that turns it into a better running engine.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

That is very interesting. While I wouldn't describe the mess out of the muffler as grey goo, it is dark-ish with some viscosity. I haven't flown in near that cold, maybe 45 F at the coldest.... (that's on the ground, dunno what the temp is 300ft altitude) I WILL check into this. Actually if it's true that might be why my tuning changes so much between days and between flights.

For all still interested:

I had an amazing thing happen. New Years day, a buddy and I put the plane on a stand and tuned it at the house. The engine ran marginally well as I am used to.... much improved over when I started this drama. We loaded the planes and the gear and went to the field. Temp was about 55 F.

We unloaded, assembled and he put his in the air. I started mine, it run ok, but I choked the engine before it warmed up and died. I tried to restart - nothing. After about 2 hours of fooling with the thing and methodically tuning, trying to stay within the previous needle setting, checking fuel tank lines, blowing through the lines etc, etc, etc. I wasn't moving fuel. I'd prime the engine by dripping fuel in the carb..... run, stop..... run, stop. Several guys come over, blah, blah, blah. I finally removed the LS stops and opened the needle one full turn! Blam fired up and run better than it ever had. What's up with that!?

I'm not an idiot (arguably), maybe inexperienced. I've tried to tune this thing very methodically by ear and with the pich test all over the needle settings and the stupid thing run marginally well at the settings I had, then not at all.

Anyways, it runs pretty good now. It still dumps a lot of fuel out of the muffler but it's making power like a .61 should. The transistion is pretty good, it's a little cold natured but nothing I can't handle.

Several posts up I removed the carb and cleaned very thoroghly(SP?) and I've had the engine running several times since then. The tuning was the same before and after the cleaning.

I'm still gonna play with it. And I will check the fuel delivery/pressure line blockage thing mentioned. Thanks for the link btw.

RE: evolution .61 poor performance
 

Either your muffler pressure nipple is clogged, your fuel tank vent line is not permitting enough air to enter the fuel tank as the fuel burns off (check for crimps), or the fuel is bubbling in the fuel tank when the engine is running and is causing the mixture to go lean. It could be something else, but I would check for these things first.


Ed Cregger