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RE: How important is the break in procedure?
A good engine specific break in is the best "hop up" you can do for any engine. It will allow great performance gains without any cutting or grinding:D.
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RE: How important is the break in procedure?
ORIGINAL: Broken Wings Dar, I know that this is a very important issue for you. (Perhaps to the point where you would like someone to break my wings):D Jett knows that the material used to manufacture their AAC and ABC cylinder liners have very similar material characteristics, they should as they specified the materials and manufactured the engines. Just post a list of the material used to manufacture OS, Super Tigre, Rossi, Jett, or any other manufacturer. We can them look up the various material specifications and compare them. (You can't because you don't know...that's what I'm trying to convey here.) Your theory is nothing more than conjecture. That is why Bob wrote ''In general, a procedure outline by an engine manufacturer should be followed as written. '' BECAUSE THEY KNOW WHAT THEY MADE THE PARTS OUT OF AND HOW THE ENGINE WAS DESIGNED!!! I find it difficult to believe that you think that a Chinese engine manufacturer would use the same material as Jett or NovaRossi.... Le Fou gets it...[&o] A certain grade of high-silicon aluminium is just that, whether it is a part of a Jett, an OS, a Chinese clone, or a Webra. Chromium plating is done in one way (chromic acid) and the type of brass used in sleeves is the same also... A manufacturer's break-in procedure does not have a copyright, because it is either copied, or assumed. A model engine manufacturer does not produce engines in numbers large enough, or with impied importance high enough, to justify doing any research on break-in. They just check out what another manufacturer wrote about an engine of a similar design, or just copy the instructions for their previous mode, even if it was of a different design... Most manufacturers don't want their engines to last any longer than the warranty period requires. They just want you to buy a new one after the old one wore-out. And if that takes 10 years, they just might not be there any longer to sell you the new engine. So, if that engine lasts 15-20 hours, they're happy. A good, type-specific break-in might result in a 400 hour engine life, that might take an average modeler 20 years to use up. Even Jett use commercially available metals, which are available to all manufacturers. For example, their con-rods are 2024 aluminium, which everyone else also use. Le fou is the crazy one in French. I am not one, but you are being argumentative. People in this forum have had good sucess using a type-specific break-in, instead of what the manual says. I think that's the best proof that it is the right route to take. |
RE: How important is the break in procedure?
IDK, my breakin procedure has always been add fuel, go fly. I have two Super Tiger 60 abc's i have used since 1978 with thousands of flights on them one with two dirt naps. never missed a start, or flight. tons of other engines gas and glow that i've given away because i'm switching to electric.
Joe |
RE: How important is the break in procedure?
EXTREMELY!!
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RE: How important is the break in procedure?
ORIGINAL: MinnFlyer I don't care what the engine is, I do them all the same - I run a tank through it while adjusting the mixture from rich to slightly lean. Then I leave it slightly rich and get 3 or 4 flights like that. All my engines run great. |
RE: How important is the break in procedure?
ORIGINAL: MJD ORIGINAL: gerryndennis Shaggy, When you changed all the fuel lines, did that include the internal tank line between the clunk and the bung? If that line has a split about the half tank level it would explain why the engine runs fine until about half a tank. Apologies if you have already tried that. Dave H Mind you the thread is two months old, I wonder if he got it figured out. Good point, hopefully he has sorted it. The thread does seem to have moved on a bit |
RE: How important is the break in procedure?
1 Attachment(s)
ORIGINAL: DarZeelon ORIGINAL: Broken Wings Dar, I know that this is a very important issue for you. (Perhaps to the point where you would like someone to break my wings):D Jett knows that the material used to manufacture their AAC and ABC cylinder liners have very similar material characteristics, they should as they specified the materials and manufactured the engines. Just post a list of the material used to manufacture OS, Super Tigre, Rossi, Jett, or any other manufacturer. We can them look up the various material specifications and compare them. (You can't because you don't know...that's what I'm trying to convey here.) Your theory is nothing more than conjecture. That is why Bob wrote ''In general, a procedure outline by an engine manufacturer should be followed as written. '' BECAUSE THEY KNOW WHAT THEY MADE THE PARTS OUT OF AND HOW THE ENGINE WAS DESIGNED!!! I find it difficult to believe that you think that a Chinese engine manufacturer would use the same material as Jett or NovaRossi.... Le Fou gets it...[&o] A certain grade of high-silicon aluminium is just that, whether it is a part of a Jett, an OS, a Chinese clone, or a Webra. Chromium plating is done in one way (chromic acid) and the type of brass used in sleeves is the same also... A manufacturer's break-in procedure does not have a copyright, because it is either copied, or assumed. A model engine manufacturer does not produce engines in numbers large enough, or with impied importance high enough, to justify doing any research on break-in. They just check out what another manufacturer wrote about an engine of a similar design, or just copy the instructions for their previous mode, even if it was of a different design... Most manufacturers don't want their engines to last any longer than the warranty period requires. They just want you to buy a new one after the old one wore-out. And if that takes 10 years, they just might not be there any longer to sell you the new engine. So, if that engine lasts 15-20 hours, they're happy. A good, type-specific break-in might result in a 400 hour engine life, that might take an average modeler 20 years to use up. Even Jett use commercially available metals, which are available to all manufacturers. For example, their con-rods are 2024 aluminium, which everyone else also use. Le fou is the crazy one in French. I am not one, but you are being argumentative. People in this forum have had good sucess using a type-specific break-in, instead of what the manual says. I think that's the best proof that it is the right route to take. Quote: I intuitively comprehend complex situations, for which most engineers would need to make intricate mathematical calculations to understand... And my Tel-Aviv University Bachelor's degree is in ... economics. I was always too lazy for high mathematics of engineering studies, but got A+ in these subjects in economics. End Quote: Dar, you have an amazing ability. I had no idea that ALL the con-rods in our model airplane engines were manufactured from 2024 Aluminum... I'm afraid I'll have to re-make this connecting rod as I used 7075-T6 as I thought it had a better tensile strength and yield strength than 2024.[:@] If you don't mind, I'd like to call upon you for answers when I have other engine parts that I need to make. :D |
RE: How important is the break in procedure?
ORIGINAL: jaka Hi! If you have the top of the fuel level at the same level as the carb then you have the engine mounted to high(or tank to low) ! I know that this is a manufacturer error on most trainers , but you as a modeler have to fix it if you want your engine to perform as it should! ....That's why I always mount my engines on their sides. To have the top of fuel level even with the carb is too low, however most trainers have about the correct level. The correct level for most installations is about 1/4 to 1/2 inch below the spray bar. Howver someof them are lower than this. |
RE: How important is the break in procedure?
ORIGINAL: Broken Wings Dar, you have an amazing ability. I had no idea that ALL the con-rods in our model airplane engines were manufactured from 2024 Aluminum... I'm afraid I'll have to re-make this connecting rod as I used 7075-T6 as I thought it had a better tensile strength and yield strength than 2024.[:@] If you don't mind, I'd like to call upon you for answers when I have other engine parts that I need to make. :D :):):) |
RE: How important is the break in procedure?
ORIGINAL: Broken Wings Quote: I intuitively comprehend complex situations, for which most engineers would need to make intricate mathematical calculations to understand... And my Tel-Aviv University Bachelor's degree is in ... economics. I was always too lazy for high mathematics of engineering studies, but got A+ in these subjects in economics. End Quote: Dar, you have an amazing ability. I had no idea that ALL the con-rods in our model airplane engines were manufactured from 2024 Aluminum... I'm afraid I'll have to re-make this connecting rod as I used 7075-T6 as I thought it had a better tensile strength and yield strength than 2024.[:@] If you don't mind, I'd like to call upon you for answers when I have other engine parts that I need to make. :D You are being argumentative and off-subject also! Even if you do make a con-rod from [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7075_aluminium_alloy]7075 aluminium[/link], instead of [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_aluminium_alloy]2024 aluminium[/link], it will not affect the break-in technique the engine needs. ...Or do you intend to also change the bushings to a 'different' alloy of bronze? Jett could have made con-rods out of that higher strength alloy, but it isn't necessary with the forces, even the rod of an F1 glow .40 encounters. The con-rod is not the limiting factor, unless the break-in was done too rich and too cold... When you invest in an alloy that has better attributes, check first if you really need them. Analyze the forces (piston acceleration at TDC) the rod is exposed to and you'd realize even 2024-T3 is much more than you need. EDIT: Typo. |
RE: How important is the break in procedure?
ORIGINAL: DarZeelon ORIGINAL: Broken Wings Quote: I intuitively comprehend complex situations, for which most engineers would need to make intricate mathematical calculations to understand... And my Tel-Aviv University Bachelor's degree is in ... economics. I was always too lazy for high mathematics of engineering studies, but got A+ in these subjects in economics. End Quote: Dar, you have an amazing ability. I had no idea that ALL the con-rods in our model airplane engines were manufactured from 2024 Aluminum... I'm afraid I'll have to re-make this connecting rod as I used 7075-T6 as I thought it had a better tensile strength and yield strength than 2024.[:@] If you don't mind, I'd like to call upon you for answers when I have other engine parts that I need to make. :D You are being argumentative and off-subject also! Even if you do make a con-rod from [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7075_aluminium_alloy]7075 aluminium[/link], instead of [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_aluminium_alloy]2024 aluminium[/link], it will not affect the break-in technique the engine needs. ...Or do you intend to also change the bushings to a 'different' alloy of bronze? Jett could have made con-rods out of that higher strength alloy, but it isn't necessary with the forces, even the rod of an F1 glow .40 encounters. The con-rod is not the limiting factor, unless the break-in was done too rich and too cold... When you invest in an allow that has better attributes, check first if you really need them. Analyze the forces (piston acceleration at TDC) the rod is exposed to and you'd realize even 2024-T3 is much more than you need. I'm not being argumentative, I'm questioning your procedure. Is that unacceptable? Why would I need to do any analytics... I'm going to use the Dar International Material Standard of Model Engine Manufactures. Quote "A certain grade of high-silicon aluminium is just that, whether it is a part of a Jett, an OS, a Chinese clone, or a Webra. Chromium plating is done in one way (chromic acid) and the type of brass used in sleeves is the same also..." End Quote Because ALL the materials that make up our model engines are the same. Dar, this is just nonsensical. Do you REALLY believe that? A Magnum's ABC cylinder liner is made of a much harder material. Therefore a Magnum ABC engine requires a break-in that is EXACTLY the same as a Magnum Ringed engine. http://globalservices.globalhobby.co...36f6558ebecb57 It's hard like steel, you can even feel it by squeezing the liner at the bottom of the cylinder. Please try it for yourself. They're NOT all made of the same material. Why can't you accept this statement as being the true statement? "In general, a procedure outline by an engine manufacturer should be followed as written. " Wouldn't it make sense to add/edit your procedure as we learn about the various materials that different manufactures use and how they react? Wouldn't it make the thread an even more valuable tool? Things change, processes change, materials change... Why doesn't your mind? |
RE: How important is the break in procedure?
ORIGINAL: Broken Wings I'm not being argumentative, I'm questioning your procedure. Is that unacceptable? If you think the procedure (while deemed good for other engines) is unsuitable for an engine of a certain make, or for one that uses different alloys of metals for its tapered-bore set; please rationalize stating exactly why you think so and what are the differences that compel you to think so. As long as you don't reason your claims, you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Why would I need to do any analytics... Does it not make sense? If a certain material is an over-kill and also costs more and is more difficult (and expensive) to machine; you'd be 'killing a housefly with a sledgehammer'... This is clearly a waste of cash, which can better be used elsewhere. Because ALL the materials that make up our model engines are the same. Dar, this is just nonsensical. Do you REALLY believe that? A Magnum's ABC cylinder liner is made of a much harder material. Therefore a Magnum ABC engine requires a break-in that is EXACTLY the same as a Magnum Ringed engine. http://globalservices.globalhobby.co...36f6558ebecb57 It's hard like steel, you can even feel it by squeezing the liner at the bottom of the cylinder. Please try it for yourself. They're NOT all made of the same material. Why can't you accept this statement as being the true statement? ''In general, a procedure outline by an engine manufacturer should be followed as written. '' Wouldn't it make sense to add/edit your procedure as we learn about the various materials that different manufactures use and how they react? Wouldn't it make the thread an even more valuable tool? Things change, processes change, materials change... Why doesn't your mind? It seems this person has not been reading anything written by Clarence Lee, George Aldrich, or even Dave Gierke; regarding break-in. He does not bother to reason his unreasonable claim, that engines with rings and ABC engines should receive the same treatment... Heat cycling does not work on aluminium; it is not the cast-iron that piston rings are made from, which in theory respond to annealing. He's still stuck in the early '70s and seems unwilling to test anything, even if it has been proven to be more appropriate. It is this type of person that infuriates me, even more than you do; because people listen to him as 'a Magnum expert'. He is not! And no! I can't accept that statement as being the true statement - simply because it is a false statement! Read the reasoning in my thread, to understand why a tapered-bore engine should be broken-in as described there. EDIT: Typo. |
RE: How important is the break in procedure?
How about we all light the camp fire and have a few beers?:):)
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RE: How important is the break in procedure?
ORIGINAL: Old Fart How about we all light the camp fire and have a few beers?:):) That would be pretty jolly, if we could have that... However, this pleasant event will not solve any problem associated with performing an incorrect break-in procedure. Although it might not cause an immediate failure of an engine very often; it will also not achieve the objectives of the break-in and will decrease the engine's ultimate life expectancy. It might not void the warranty, unless the engine is used extensively after that "break-in" (causing it to wear out within the warranty period), though... ...After all, you just followed the manual, didn't you? Also, we come from so many different places... You, Joe and BW (John?), will have to spend a couple of thousands of Dollars to get here to the Meditteranian beach... Might as well visit Jerusalem, [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capernaum]Capernaum[/link] and other places also... |
RE: How important is the break in procedure?
ORIGINAL: DarZeelon ORIGINAL: Broken Wings I'm not being argumentative, I'm questioning your procedure. Is that unacceptable? If you think the procedure (while deemed good for other engines) is unsuitable for an engine of a certain make, or for one that uses different alloys of metals for its tapered-bore set; please rationalize stating exactly why you think so and what are the differences that compel you to think so. As long as you don't reason your claims, you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Why would I need to do any analytics... Does it not make sense? If a certain material is an over-kill and also costs more and is more difficult (and expensive) to machine; you'd be 'killing a housefly with a sledgehammer'... This is clearly a waste of cash, which can better be used elsewhere. Because ALL the materials that make up our model engines are the same. Dar, this is just nonsensical. Do you REALLY believe that? A Magnum's ABC cylinder liner is made of a much harder material. Therefore a Magnum ABC engine requires a break-in that is EXACTLY the same as a Magnum Ringed engine. http://globalservices.globalhobby.co...36f6558ebecb57 It's hard like steel, you can even feel it by squeezing the liner at the bottom of the cylinder. Please try it for yourself. They're NOT all made of the same material. Why can't you accept this statement as being the true statement? ''In general, a procedure outline by an engine manufacturer should be followed as written. '' Wouldn't it make sense to add/edit your procedure as we learn about the various materials that different manufactures use and how they react? Wouldn't it make the thread an even more valuable tool? Things change, processes change, materials change... Why doesn't your mind? It seems this person has not been reading anything written by Clarence Lee, George Aldrich, or even Dave Gierke; regarding break-in. He does not bother to reason his unreasonable claim, that engines with rings and ABC engines should receive the same treatment... Heat cycling does not work on aluminium; it is not the cast-iron that piston rings are made from, which in theory respond to annealing. He's still stuck in the early '70s and seems unwilling to test anything, even if it has been proven to be more appropriate. It is this type of person that infuriates me, even more than you do; because people listen to him as 'a Magnum expert'. He is not! And no! I can't accept that statement as being the true statement - simply because it is a false statement! Read the reasoning in my thread, to understand why a tapered-bore engine should be broken-in as described there. EDIT: Typo. It was Bob Brassel of Jett Engineering that made that statement in reply to your question to him. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=1893259 Do you not agree with him? There's no need to call anyone a Fool or a Dork. Please, lets stay on topic. |
RE: How important is the break in procedure?
BW,
The 'dork' I am referring to is the one in the Magnum FAQ forum that you linked, who wrote ringed and ABC engines must be broken-in using the same process... Bob Brassel knows what he's taking about; except his statement recommending that in general, the manufacturer's instructions should be followed... In this case of the Magnum, they definitely should not be! |
RE: How important is the break in procedure?
Maybe a handrolled havana seegaar:)
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RE: How important is the break in procedure?
ORIGINAL: Old Fart Maybe a handrolled havana seegaar:) Maybe in Perth Aussie it can be OK... But in the US, their import is against the law [X(]! |
RE: How important is the break in procedure?
Deleted... it doesn't matter.
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RE: How important is the break in procedure?
BW,
I have not actually seen a Havana cigar. I smoke nothing, but would not be surprised to encounter one here. There is no law I know of here, to prevent import of non-commercial amounts of tobacco products by individuals. If there is commercial trade, the US probably knows about it - it is not like weapon deals with Iran. And yes, it is off-subject, but it was Old Fart who offered that we continue this 'discussion' over a campfire, with beers and cigars... Ask him, maybe? |
RE: How important is the break in procedure?
ORIGINAL: DarZeelon BW, I have not actually seen a Havana cigar. I smoke nothing, but would not be surprised to encounter one here. There is no law I know of here, to prevent import of non-commercial amounts of tobacco products by individuals. If there is commercial trade, the US probably knows about it - it is not like weapon deals with Iran. And yes, it is off-subject, but it was Old Fart who offered that we continue this 'discussion' over a campfire, with beers and cigars... Ask him, maybe? |
RE: How important is the break in procedure?
ORIGINAL: the pope I think O.F makes his own seegars that are against the the law everywhere. Cheers man from the pope ( grooooovy ) Had I been a 'seegar' smoker, I would have liked to try one of his... |
RE: How important is the break in procedure?
ORIGINAL: downunder ORIGINAL: NM2K You just ''got lucky'' downunder. The OS is not an ABC engine. The AAC engine won't give a damn no matter what you do, because the piston and liner follow each other size-wise being made of the same material. I know nothing about Norvel engines, even though I have a couple of .061 engines tucked away. I never get around to flying the real little stuff. Aren't those mid sized Norvel engines ceramic coated? Ed Cregger |
RE: How important is the break in procedure?
The thermal expansion of aluminium can be reduced by adding Si, which also improves the hardness. The manufacturer can thereby tune the differences in thermal expansions between cylinder and piston even on AAC engines.
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RE: How important is the break in procedure?
ORIGINAL: Mr Cox The thermal expansion of aluminium can be reduced by adding Si, which also improves the hardness. The manufacturer can thereby tune the differences in thermal expansions between cylinder and piston even on AAC engines. Pistons in AAC combos are made from low-expansion, high-silicon aluminium. But the chromium-plated sleeve is made from a higher expansion, 'normal' aluminium alloy. The sleeve has a higher expansion coefficient, but also better cooling, so it expands to follow the piston. As a rule, AAC is a bit more successful, power-wise, than ABC. It is also lighter. |
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