khodges

My Feedback: (1)

Micro Fasteners has available a small brass rivet with a head just about perfect for what you need. The rivets are about 3/16" long, and wouldn't be quite as much hassle to apply as pin heads. I used brass brads on most of my screw detail on the fuse, but used the smaller brass rivets around my tail panels. I drilled individual holes that were a press fit, put a drop of Ca on the rivet tip, and pushed it in. I can't find my M-F catalog or I'd give you the part# of the rivets. Should be on-line, though.

Skylark--- that IP picture you posted is a Stinson, it's the SR-6, or whatever was back in the hangar. I remember now. It was a red plane; I looked for an identifier on the panel, usually the yoke wheel hubs say "Stinson" or there is the characteristic arrow logo, but didn't see one. Fairchild is the same way, usually; the rudder pedals usually have the "FA" and winged Pegasus on them. Below are examples on both a Fairchild and a Stinson that were at the Hickory airport a while back.

SuperCub Man

Hi Dan, Ken and John - Thanks for the info. I already deal with Micro Fasteners so I will be able to find your suggestion in their catalogue. I had a friend weigh one sheet of the panel that was not trimmed to final size, and at 3.5" X 15" it weighed 18.2 grams. Cutting down to fit the planform will probably reduce it by a couple of grams so lets say it is 16 grams. Since 8 of them must be made the total weight per aircraft will be 128 grams which converts to 4.5 oz. I don't think this is a problem on this size aircraft and I do want those scale corrugations! When the time comes I shall trot out to my local airport here in St. Catharines and take photos of the yellow YMF screw and dzus fastener locations in great detail!!
Per the attached pix I solved the wood splitting problem by silver soldering the 1/16" piano to a piece of 1/4" steel plate. She ain't gonna split now! I'll CA a piece of 1/8" ply to the back to soften the hammer blow sounds.
The machinist friend who gave me the steel plate said that the alum. I was using was just roof flashing! I had paid $10.99 for a piece 14" X 36" at Cdn Tire and at Home depot I got a roll 12" X 12ft for $11.99! The things we learn!!
Thanks Dan for the idea and thanks Ken for the great Prop Hub idea!!

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

The prop hub looks mighty fine, better than mine by a margin. Did you use #1 or #0 nuts? I may have to redo mine.. The aileron sheeting also looks great. Count the number of times you have to hit the form for each corrugation, times the number of corrugations per aileron side, times the number of ailerons. We'll start calling you S.C. Hammer

skylarkmk1

SCM,

Man, you have a lot of work to do on those skins, 816 ribs and a whole lot of rivets (4000 plus) for all three planes. If you need pictures of the rivet detail, I have plenty of shots of an un-mounted aileron. There is a rivet on each side of each corrugation at each end (1088), tips (4), top and bottom at the root end (224) and top and bottom diagonal re-inforcement (112) or a total of 1428 rivets per plane just for the ailerons. It falls into the same catagory as rib stitching, stand back a few feet and they disappear. Up close it looks great and shows attention to detail

SuperCub Man

Yeah! What did you say?? Hard to hear!! I hit the thing three times per groove if I start right - else its two more times on the outsides!! I've just made two pieces - one aileron. Actually I made three but one strip was cut too short and I ran out of material. WOW! But it works!
Looking in the Micro Fastener catalogue and I see a brass miniature rivet - round head 1/8" long with a 1/16" head dia. I think that's the one you refered to. Also I see some aluminum rivets that are 1/4" long with a 1/8" dia. head. I had some of these years ago but used them all up. Extremely handy. I see some 0-80 slotted pan head screws. Would these work on the cowling area?
On the motor hub I used 2-56 nuts on 2-56 stainless steel rod threaded into the washer as you recommended. Had to buy a new Cobalt tap as the "hobby quality" one I had snapped after 8 holes. Made three of them for our three Wacos!
And John - you are so right. I looked closely at the rivet detail and then looked away! I may try that "glue rivet" method. Got an ole pro here named Don Prentice who has done this many times in years past. He'll give me lessons if I need them.
The rivets etc. I'm looking for now are really for the fuse in those areas I choose to go crazy with.

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

Jim, those small brass rivets would be just right to simulate screw heads in the fuse area where all the sheet metal is. I used brass brads like linoleum trim nails for mine, cut to about 3/16" long. They are just a tad too large, not so much that it looks way out of scale, but when compared to the little rivets, which I used at the tail, they are too big. The rivet heads are much more proportionate to the rest of the plane. From ten feet away from the full-scale, you can't tell whether the fasteners are slotted or Phillips or rivets. If you really want the detail, though, What Stickbuilder said to me would work: after the primer coat, use a sharp blade and scribe a slot in the primer finish, all it needs to be is a scratch, and the finish coat will not fill it in.

I'm in the process of reorganizing my shop. Building, and even repairing, is gonna be on hold for a few weeks. I have a 4'x7' solid door I got from work that will be a new building table, and I figured out how to rearrange things to fit it in and still have room to work from both sides. Now I can lay out a complete wing at one time, plus build the fuse on my bench. I also need to hang a couple of new lights. The door is heavy as heck; it was an entry to one of the O.R. suites and has a 3/32 sheet of lead in the middle for X-Ray shielding. I guess if somebody drops "the big one" I can always hide behind it

aminiet

Guys.

If any one is interested, The Latin American aviation society. (www.laahs.com) has a very nice article on Waco warplanes of Latin America, has some side view pictures from the different countries that flew the Waco, and it is in English.
You will have to join, but it is free.

Many thanks to John Howard for the hard work done cataloging the different subjects in this forum, It sure makes things easier to find.

Proctor carries a brass nail with a head dia. of .095" and a shank of .050" approx 1/4" in length.

Angel
B 58

skylarkmk1

Angel,
Thanks, the index is taking time to do, much longer than expected and is getting longer by the day. The next update will not have page numbers, do to the posts per page number change a couple of months ago. Just take the post number and divide by 20. The result is the page it should be on. If you get a page number such as 145.4, round up to find the post (145.4 becomes 146).

Thanks for the Proctor heads up. .095 is approximately 3/32".

aminiet

John.
You are doing a terrific job and credit needs to be given where credit it's due.
I only wish I had this support when I was working on my Jenny.
I forgot to mention that I will try to locate the correct part number for the aluminum rivets, 1/16" shank 1/8" dia. head.
we used to put them on the seat belts to keep the belts from coming out where they are attached at the seat, we give them a different part number at Continental. I believe they are # 1 rivets.

Angel

Stickbuilder

Boy,

When you guys start to scale one out, there is no stone left unturned. Me too[:@] I've decided to add pinking tape to all the stringers. I'm going to use tissue paper that I cut into strips, and pinked the edges with my new paper trimmer. The scale is about right, and the tissue will not add any appreciable weight. You will need to be closer than 3' to see it, and it will disappear as you move away. This is as it should be. Any scale detail that sticks out at 15' is probably too big, or not applied correctly. I suppose that's the nature of the beast.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

SuperCub Man

John - Where might one find that index?? Is it posted somewhere?

Stickbuilder

Off topic...
Has anyone else noticed that our avitars and personal info have disappeared?????

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

Stickbuilder

OOps....
My bad...I had inadv ertantly changet mine to simplified flat styoe... Avitar is back.....[:-]

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

SuperCub Man

I was just going through my needs and making up an order for Micro Fasteners and I ran across the envelope with the nuts I used on the hub and they are #HNSS0256 Stainless Steel Small Pattern Hex. Thought you might be interested since you mentioned it.

skylarkmk1

SCM,

Look at the Auxilary site - "House of Moy" http://www.houseofmoy.com/waco/ . The index is at the top of the page (and as noted, is a continual work in progress). You will also find a list of resources, plans, kits and other stuff, copies of the plans in PDF format (a copy place can print them out, but it is cheaper to buy direct from the AMA), parts in jpg and dxf (dxf does not want to open and jpg don't print out at the correct scale) and a copy of the short Pica manual (17 page) revised with input from this thread. The longer manual (45+ pages) is still being worked on.

skylarkmk1

Angel,

Since you brought it up, I have these pictures of the rib stitching and tapes from the HARM's Jenny. It has been taken off display to be recovered with just the wings left to do.
P1 - Interior shot of the rib stitching
P2 - Close up of frayed, not "pinked" tapes
P3 - Close up of completed section

SuperCub Man

Thanks John. I have already downloaded the plans (that's what the three of us are working from) and the outlines in .jpg. All of our .jpgs turned out quite accurate and very helpful. We also have the manual but I didn't notice the Index and I thank you for that!! My cost to make three sets of plans of three sheets each was about $25.00 total from our local Commercial Digital Printer. Each additional set is cheaper when done at the same time - so we are pleased as punch with the Brotherhood's and your efforts. Thanks all!

Stickbuilder

Super Cub Man,

I hate to say this, but I think that the formers F-5T and F-6T are mis labeled. Please check the height on the forward top formers prior to installing them. They go from back to front with the taller of them being at the Instrument panel. I found this when building the fuse for the one that I have on the board.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

WacoJoe

Yep, every Stearman I've seen has the "briefcase" combination lock and the two Dzus fasteners on the corners of the baggage door. Wacos just have the combo lock without the Dzus fasterners.

Of course there are always a few variations where "field modifications" have substituted something else for the original hardware. The "Navy" Waco that used to be based at Creve Coeur (the Miller family airplane) had what looked like a car door handle on the baggage compartment instead of the combo lock. There are other variations as well. But the original configuration for the UPF-7 is as you see on my airplane, with the combo lock and no other fasteners.

Joe
WB #54

aminiet

John.

I did the stitching on the vert. and hor. stab. and elevator, similar to what you showed in the pictures, but for some reason the tissue I used developed wrinkles.
I decided to leave them alone as I am going for the weathered, aged look of a military airplane.
The part number of the rivets I mentioned earlier is MS20470AD2- in case somebody has access to them.

Angel
B 58

Redwulf__34

I decided to order the koverall and dope from my local hobby store. I like to give my business to the local guys so I always order or buy from them. I've been waiting now for a week and still no koverall or dope! Guess maybe next time I'll order it myself.

I am going to micro balloon around my control exits tomorrow morning and then just short of a little more sanding I'll be ready to dope and cover. What do you guys use to apply and form the micro balloons? Does it sand so easily that it doesn't need to be formed that perfect when applying it? I'm also guessing 30 minute epoxy should be enough time?

I sure hope I can cover this thing and make it look good! It's been a long long time.

Stickbuilder

I think that you can make a spatula from popsicle sticks that should do the job. I don't use micro balloons. I do, however, use lightweight spackle, and it sands extremely well. Epoxy can be sanded, but it is always harder than is the spackle. It is heavier as well, but it's stronger. Everything is a trade-off.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

khodges

My Feedback: (1)

If you use epoxy and microballoons, make it a fairly high ratio of balloons to epoxy, like John said, peanut butter consistency. It will set faster than it would without the balloons, so consider 30 minute to be no more than 15 minute. use a tongue depressor or popsicle stick and trowel it into the desired spot and smooth it as best you can with the stick or your finger; don't worry too much about getting a little in the hole for the pushrod, it can be removed later. Once you have it as smooth as possible, take a piece of wax paper and lay it over the epoxy and cover it with an index card, or something flat and stiff that will conform to the curvature of the fuse. Hold it in place until the epoxy sets, then remove it and peel the wax paper off. You might not even have to sand it. Take a sharp blade or dremel tool with a small cutting burr and clean out any epoxy that got into the control rod hole.

You might want to try this on a piece of scrap to play with the technique, but the wax paper will leave a very smooth, almost metal-like, surface. The trick is to have no more epoxy than you need, but no voids, either.

Redwulf__34

Thanks khodges. I never thought about using the wax paper over it. I bet it does make a nice smooth surface. The hobby shop didn't have any micro balloons last night either. I got a little bit impatient this morning so I decided to use my Elmers wood putty. The reason I wanted to use the micro balloons was for a little extra help holding it in. The elmers wood putty is pretty hard and very very easy to sand. I wish I had read your message before I did it.

The Elmers is water based so I filled the surface around it and "wetted" my finger then smoothed and shaped it that way. Sort of like you would with Epoxylite. The Elmers sands so darn easy that and bumps etc are no problem to shape back out with sand paper. I'll post a picture when I'm done. It's probably a little heavier than the Red Devil Spackle or micro balloons but there isn't much on there. I've a feeling I may need a little extra weight in the tail for balance anyway.

I'm going to remember your technique though khodges. I like it. I'd like to see a picture of how you use the index card to wrap it around if you ever think about it.

Sean

mangolo

A simple way for cutting pinked tape from koverall or polyester dress lining is to put the fabric on a piece of flat and clean piece of glass, dope it and when dry remove and cut with pinking scissors