maxpower1954

Love this thread...brings back nearly 40 year old memories when I entered R/C.

My first radio was a used Controlaire 5, bought for 100 bucks when I was 14 years old. It worked well enough for a time, then destroyed my Lanier Transit in a death spiral, knocking down a clothesline and post - only ten feet from the lady hanging her laundry! I still have nightmares about that...the date was July 20, 1969; the day of the moon landing.

My mentor and local World Engines Service Expert couldn't find anything wrong, so it was attributed to CB interference. I installed the wretched thing in my next airplane, a Lanier Bronco. Two minutes into the maiden flight, it locked up and rolled into the ground, scattering Bronco over 75 feet of ground.

Mr. Bryant (my instructor and hero mentioned above) felt so bad about the performance of the radio he sold me, his first digital outfit (replaced with a Kraft
Gold Medal series, BTW) he GAVE me a Maurice Franklin designed Henchman he had built from M.A.N. plans. It had been flown many times with the Controlaire 5. It lasted about three flights - then the dreaded full-throttle roll into the terra firma. If these seem like fancy models for a 14 year old to be flying, I was already a pretty good flyer - Mr. Bryant taught me how to fly R/C on HIS airplanes, before I ever owned my own. A tremendous gesture on his part, he was one of the kindest persons I have ever known.

After loss number three, I traded the awful beast to some hobby shop in Oklahoma that would take any radio for a 50 dollar credit on a new system. I got a M.A.N. 2-3-4 kit, Mr. Bryant in his unselfish way, built it for free ( I was out of money, anyway!) That second generation digital radio was totally reliable and glitch-free, and I flew it exculsively till 1977. Still have it; it last flew in the early 1990s.

I spoke to Dave Brown our AMA prez a few years ago, and the discussion turned to early digital systems. One thing I learned is that the round-cell GE ni-cads under vibration would sometimes emit RF right on the 27 band, causing a loss of control. Dave was at World Engines in the late 60s, and testing by Jim Lanterman brought this out, albeit slightly too late to help me - they were already building the second generation by then, with AA ni-cads. Actually, by 1969 WE wouldn't even service the first generation systems; Dave said they wanted them out of the field ASAP.

Enough rambling - I'm still wondering - other than Bonner and F & M, what other first gen systems had fail-safe? Russ Farris

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

Here is my project F&M Digital*5 system. It has the 7 cell battery pack (tapped at 8.4, 6.0, and 3.6 volts for the servo motors and receiver) and four servos, three that fail-safe to the center and one that fail-safe to the end of travel (low throttle). They are built with Kraft KPS-7 servo mechanics. I believe that this was the second variation of the early F&M system, as the earlier one used Bonner servo mechanics. The transmitter has the Bonner stick assemblies, which are rather crude by todays standards. The airborn system weighs only 26 oz.

If you look closely, you can see that the painted markings at the top of the transmitter case are missing. Unfortunately, somewhere before I aquired it cleaning was attempted with a solvent like acetone. However, with a good photograph I have been able to make a masking pattern for the original markings which the last photo shows. This one shows the relationship to the case and is not the final copy that the silkscreen will be made from.

Oh yeah, the VK Cherokee kit in the background is from the same period. Though the plans show reed equipment (Bonner Transmites) when the kit was reviewed in RCM I think they used a F&M proportional system. It was also on the cover of Flying models with the Boomarang Bipe by Wally Zober in March 1967. An issue that I wore out in the hospital at the age of 12 after having my appendix removed.

maxpower1954

Looks great HighPlains; yikes, those funky Bonner sticks! My Controlaire had them - lots of slop, and as most of us know the trim actually moved the stick neutral position.

It's a F & M Digital 5...looks like it has a total of six controls (two auxs) Is one a dummy?

ONLY 26 ounces airborne weight??? My RTF Mini-FuntanaX electric weighs that! How far we have come...of course in 1966 the Gemini spacecraft was state of the art, two guys in a tin can; color TV was just starting to kick in...

I'm assuming a fail-safe system transmitter like the F & M or Bonner won't work with a modern RX, like my Citizen-Ship or MRC/Futaba does, correct? I rely on you guys for this electronic stuff...Russ Farris

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

I don't remember if the second one is a dummy or throttle trim. I'm hoping to get it rebuilt this winter and fully functional again. The sticks feel like a couple of pencils stuck in peanut butter and placed in the freezer overnight. The springs are really strong, but the sticks need cleaning and a bit of lub. The battery pack is those wonderful pancake batteries by GE.

The transmitter has nothing to do with the fail-safe function. That is a huge part of the decoder board and perhaps part of each servo amplifier too. So with a typical AM receiver, it would (should) work fine (on 27 MHz). I think this system is from 1966 or late '65. Anyway, dumping the failsafe function saved a bunch of components, and overall system reliability would go up and costs go down.

maxpower1954

Well, that's what I initially thought - the fail-safe was in the receiver, nothing to do with the transmitter, but a few guys even dumber than me led me astray.

Power up that F & M transmitter - I can send you a Futaba R-114 rx or HPI RF-2 (license-built Futaba) just for laughs and see what happens.

I know my MAN 2-3-4 and Blue Maxes have issues working modern 27MHZ RXs. Pulse width??? 1969 Pro-line tx works great with them...Russ Farris

RFJ

Well here are a couple more who did!

Ray

Dan Vincent

Nice Ray,

I'll betcha someone has a collection of R/C jaket patches.

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

Steve, here is those three radios from inside the proportional roundup.

SGibson

My Feedback: (2)

Highplains,
Thanks for the additional magazine pictures. On closer inspection, the Bonner transmitter in my collection is the not the same as in the magazine. Mine doesn't have the row of switches, or pots, cross the top.
I have installed new shelves to display my radio collection in my workshop. I will try to take a picture of the display and post it in this forum.

iflyj3

My Feedback: (7)

You probably have the Digimite 4. IIRC, this came after the Digimite 8. I have a Digimite 8 on 53.0 MHz.

Frank Schwartz

My Feedback: (1)

I had one of the Digimite 8 units..was my first digital set...put it in a Taurus (K&B45) and retired my reed set. if you took the servos apart due to a crash or whatever, little balls that the output rack ran in, went everywhere...the case was held together with snaps. Sold it...wish I had not. Then I had a Digimite 4 on six meters and once put it in a Testor's Skyhawk with Enya 09 and putailerons on the wing..flew great...article was in MAN..I can look up the issue if anyone is interested. Sold the 4 to Al Signorino (spelling?) of Snoopy Doghouse fame in St. Louis. The 4 had an intersting and innovative gear train setup in the small servos, if I remember correctly.
I have a Jacket with more of the patches...like Pro Line and such..that I will post Pictures here shortly...as soon as I can figure out how to do it.
Regards to all you geezers.
Frank Schwartz AMA123 coming up on my 82nd birthday..holy smokes..I am getting older...
but still bulding and flying.....

RFJ

Perhaps it is this one, the Digimite 4. This was followed by the 4RS (standing for "Real Small" I believe) which used the same TX but a smaller RX and servos.

For interest, the prices in 1967 were $455 for the 4 and $615 for the 8

Ray

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

Was this the harmonic drive that got Bonner into patent infringement? It is more commonly used today in industrial robot systems. Here is a site that explains the basic concept for anybody that haven’t seen the technology. Harmonic drive offers zero backlash and a high numerical reduction with very few components.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/art-61260?articleTypeId=1

Note that the flexspine has fewer teeth than the rigid spine. It takes the wave generator rotating many times to get one rotation of the flexspine, thus giving the speed reduction

jaymen

Yes, that harmonic drive was the subject of disspute for Bonner. It was in the later 4RS systems that had either the grey or orange 4 wire plastic cased servos.

I beleive the F&M had six channels, at least the receiver has six servo pigtails on several unit I have seen. The panel on the F&M is labeled "AUX" which indicates those are two additional auxillary levers. Nice job on the silksceen artwork.

The reason that you have trouble using the Futaba R-114 is two fold: The sync pause/reset time for the earlier systems was different, as was the frame rate. Changing the sync cap in the decoder will solve that. Additionally, the Futaba receiver outputs a positive pulse to the servo. Some of the early systems used a negative pulse to the servo, so a pulse inverster would be needed...Ace R/C used to sell them. The other option would be to get a Receiver crystal that was cut 455 Khz higher that the channel frequecy for the Futaba(high side as opposed to low side crystal) to invert the pulse train going to the decoder.


I have freed up those old Bonner sticks, usually it is castor oil in the ball socket that causes problems. Alot of guys don't remember, but you push on the Bonner trim levers to move them, otherwize it strips the ratcheting notches off the trim levers and then they will move with the stick! Be careful with them, they are fragile. I have made new "C" springs for the Bonner stick using lighter gauge music wire than the original spring, it helps alot. Use silicon grease on the ball socket, as any petroleum lubes harm the plastic. The grease really helps the feel and removes some slop.

Failsafe really eats up batteries, I remember the ad for the Galaxy 5 by Galatron had it as an option. The Digicons had failsafe too.

fritzke

My Feedback: (1)

Ray,

That would be equal to $2800 and $3784 in todays dollars.

It makes the new top end Futaba $2200 radios seem downright reasonable.
(And todays $300 radios are "nearly" free at an equivalent of $50 in 1967!)

Dave

http://www.minneapolisfed.org/research/data/us/calc/

jaymen

Just found this out:


Bob Dunham had a Cessna 172 Skylane(not a model) that he flew, so Cliffy, Phil, Bob, and Zel were all licensed pilots as well.

maxpower1954

Now this is the kind of information that's makes them real people - instead of just names in the story of digital proportional development!

(BTW, a 172 is a Skyhawk and a 182 a Skylane, but I'm sure you knew that!)

I think you must have misunderstood my post - the Futaba R-114 doesn't work with either my M.A.N. 2-3-4 or Blue Max TXs, both World Engines radios. I'm pretty sure the pulse width is different; it functions only on the first channel (aileron.) On the other channels, the servos drive to one end.

The R-114 does work perfectly with my 1966 Citizen-Ship DPT five channel TX, which certainly qualifies as a first-generation system. It also works great with a 1969 Pro-line Competition Six TX and 1970 MRC-Futaba F-700 TX. The only drawback is slightly more servo travel clockwise, which Highplains pointed out - didn't notice myself.

I'll leave it to you radio experts to enlighten me, but I thought the positive/negative pulse was between the decoder and servo amp. The RF link, AM as we are talking about here doesn't have a positive or negative, or so I believe...I think the schematic I have somewhere for the Citizen-Ship servo show a negative signal pulse, while the MRC-Futaba servo is positive...either way, both of these transmitters fly a modern Futaba R-114 AM receiver with S-3003 servos just fine. I thought the Ace R/C pulse inverter was so you could use different brands of servos.

Of course, modern FM receivers are positive or negative shift, but that is an entirely different matter.

Great info Jaymen, keep it coming! I didn't know about pushing the trim down on the Bonner sticks. Russ Farris

Frank Schwartz

My Feedback: (1)

To those interested in r/c manufacturers patches, I have two to post, but cannot find out on this site how to attach them...any suggestions ? It is printed. "for image uploads click reply or quote icons in any post above. I am probably dense, but this does not make sense to me. I do not have a clue as to what the reply or quote icons look like....ok, give me a hard time...but tell me how.....
Thanks

Live Wire

Frank
To your left below the dark bar under your name Post reply the select what you want to upload and and at the bottom of that page it tells you to select images.

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks Jay for the maintenance tips on the Bonner sticks. I’m sure that after cleaning and lubrication with the correct grease will make them feel like new. I didn’t know about the push to set as a design feature of the trims, but had already determined that pushing them helped for some reason. Now I know why.

As you know, the trims on Bonner sticks were purely mechanical, and this was also done on later stick designs as well for cost and complexity reasons. However, the Bonner trims actually moved the stick’s centering point instead of the pot. So the end points of servo travel never changed for a control. This means that if you give up trim, the stick moves that amount, and the remaining travel of the stick is reduced in the up direction.

On both the F&M and PCS systems that I have with the Bonner sticks, the throttle trim levers on the right side of the throttle stick look nice, but are not connected in any way to the stick assembly. This is because Bonner stick trims do not change the endpoints of servo travel, so even if they were connected the net result would be nothing. On the F&M system, the right auxiliary panel lever is a throttle trim that is wired electrically to the throttle pot. The left auxiliary panel lever is the fifth control channel. This feature was briefly mentioned in a RCM review in the March 1966 issue. This allowed a low trim setting for engine kill. I guess if you flew an early PCS, you just threw a rag into the engine or pulled the fuel line.

F&M made two digital systems, the Digital 5 and later a three channel system. I don’t believe they ever made a six channel set.

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

That is correct. A simple inverter is all that is need to convert a Proline servo to work with a Kraft receiver, you get 6 in a 14 pin dip for about a quarter.

maxpower1954

My Controlaire 5 throttle trim was like the PCS set up mentioned by HighPlains...you had to kill the engine by pulling the fuel line or throwing a rag into the prop.

You radio experts (HighPlains, Grotto2 and Jaymen) am I correct on the servo pulse (negative or positive) configuration not having anything to do with an AM transmitter signal? Russ Farris

maxpower1954

OK HighPlains, you posted while I was asking my question!

I'm hoping to aquire a few more early digital transmitters for the VRCS meets to fly. I'm a little suprised I'm the only one out here that thinks actually flying these pioneering transmitters with modern airborne components isn't a cool idea.

A vintage plane like my Shoestring, an old engine as the ST .46 and a forty-one year old TX like the Citizen-Ship. It dupicates the experience of classic R/C, without the slow 4 wire servos, weird battery configurations and ancient receiver problems. Like having a 55 Chevy with a 327 small block V-8 with electronic ignition...

I forgot his name, but the guy who won Best Finished Model at the Mid-South VRCS meet used a 1969 Controlaire system, down to the original receiver and S-4 servos in a Goldberg Skylark 56, with TWO .15 engines! His one flight gave me a heart attack when one engine failed and he was very slow getting the nose down, but he made a sucessfull landing. He was the only flyer I can recall using a completely original setup; my hero!

Having a few vintage flying antiques transmitters among the modern electrics in my fleet reminds me of the 1963 movie "Hud" with Paul Newman. Hud's father kept a few Texas Longhorns on his ranch, becuase they reminded him what the old days were like...keeping my greasy thumbs on those slick stick ends on that heavy metal box do the same for me..Russ Farris

ukengineman

In the first post of this interesting thread Jaymen mentions that the Bonner digimite servo used analog voltage feedback which gave the usual analog servo problems of slow speed and low torque just off the commanded position. As I mentioned earlier in this thread I had an F&M Digital 5 back in the 1960s. My Digital 5 was one supplied with Digimite servos, were the electronics in these the same as those shipped with Bonner systems or did Frank Hoover use his own? The servos were certainly slow as I recall.

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

Looks like you now have another one on the way for a lot less than your first one. What was the function of the red button on the front panel of the transmitter? Was it the start button on the encoder?