Hi to all. I am considering a gas engine for a future plane that is weight sensitive (against manufacturers recommendation). By now you probably know is the DP Edge 540

Anyhow, could somebody help me with accurate weight including ignition/muffler for the following engines, because I have tried to gather info from the manufacturers websites but was not able to determine if weight listed are with/without ignition and muffler...in other words, want to compare apples to apples.

DA 50
BME 50
ZDZ 50
Brisson 2.4 and 3.2

My other option was using glow OS 1.60 or Moki 1.8 but I would like to try gas.

Thanks

I cannot help with the other engines, but I have this data from my own engines. Hope this helps.

DA50
Engine
spark plug
ignition module
prop washer, nut
49.4 oz

Slimline Pitts muffler 10 oz

total 59.4 oz -
plus standoffs (approx 2 oz), ignition battery (4 oz), ignition switch/harness (1.5 oz)

total including mount, battery, harness
approx 67 oz.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Moki 1.8
Engine
glow plug
prop washer
tru-turn spinner nut

42.3 oz

Moki backplate mount 7.1 oz (Great Planes jumbo adjustable nylon mount is similar weight)
Bisson pitts muffler 6.8 oz

Total w/mount and muffler 56.2 oz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wolf Predator 1.8 Model B (I own 2 of these gems)

Engine, spark plug, prop washer, spinner nut, venturi tube, rear plate mount
41.1 oz

Ignition module w/foam 4.1 oz

Bisson inverted muffler w/bolts 5.4 oz
Bisson wraparound pitts muffler w/bolts 7.1 oz

All up including battery (4 oz), switch harness (1.5 oz)

Total = 56.1 oz (inverted muffler), 57.8 oz w/wraparound pitts muffler

Since it requires less fuel, the Wolf actually has a flying weight significantly less than the Moki 1.8, although it's not quite as powerful. Both swing a 19x8 Mejzlik. 7100rpm on the Wolf, 8800 on the Moki.

It looks like Lee got ALL the details on the engine weights. Lee, I like the way you wrote it with total weight, not just engine and exhaust.

ivansie, my opinion on the Moki is entirely subjective. I have the MOKI 1.8 in my Patrick Edge and it flies fantastic. The all up weight of the plane is in the high 13 lbs. It's under 14 lbs. The Moki spins a 19x8 Mezjlik prop (high 7K's) and the power is terrific.

[link=http://aeroplano.home.comcast.net/edge540/index.html]
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Enjoy your Edge.

-Cheech

Hey, Mark. Wazzzzzzzzzzup?

Can't wait to see you back at Deer Grove, buddy, LOL.

Duh, of course I have all the detailed stuff. I'm an obsessive compulsive engineer. Of course you know that.... FYI, my Moki 1.8 has much higher numbers on the Mejlik prop than you have. Maybe my Excel spreadsheet aircraft fleet database is off somehow.......

I saw your 8800 number and choked. I double checked mine and I looked for other MOKI 1.8 data. The 18x8 spins up in the high 8K's. I found some numbers in the "tachometer readings" forum.

Well, Mark, it pays to mix one's own fuel for a Moki, with racing methanol and my own oil blend, 22% oil, 75/25 synthetic/castor!

It is possible I recorded the wrong rpm on the 19x8. FYI, it was a Menz, not a Mejzlik, my error. That having been said, the numbers I have recorded in my spreadsheet are:

8,800 on the Menz 19x8

8,900 on a Zinger standard 18x8

This engine was in my 160 sized Great Planes Extra 300S. Yup, 8,800 seems high but that's what I've got.

Mark don't waste your time on a glow motor. Will take you to the poor house if you fly alot. Go with the DA 50 power second to none and most of all execellent customer service. A great power band and will last you forever oh did i say (customer service). Well i think you get the picture. I live here in miami and fly out at the amps field. You are welcome to come out here some time.

Good luck with your selection

Tony Fandino

Thanks for the info to all that have chipped in. I have doing some more research and probably besides glow, the 2 best options for this plane will be in the 40cc range with the Brisson and ZDZ being the front runners. I was told BME does not manufacture anymore lower than 50cc and the smallest DA is 50cc. Zenoah is darn heavy same as 3W as per some info I was able to find.

I saw your pic of the moki installation and that is exactly what I am trying to avoid, cutting the side of the cowl. Did you tried to mount it inverted?

Well, I dont want to be a bother but if some have good info on weight of the Brisson and ZDZ or any other recommendation for powerplant for this plane. I refuse to cut the side of the cowl.... and trying to keep plane below 14.5 pounds. I will probably look into CF elements and other lightening options (no structural) in order to compensate for the excess weight of the gas engine.

Why the worry about cutting the cowl? I agree that uncut looks better than cut, but to me it doesn't look bad. Anyway, it's just an ARF. None of us are going to the scale masters with one of these. They are flying machines. Mine fles really well.

Maybe, but I can buy my engine/muffler and twenty gallons of fuel for the price of a DA50. That's more than a hundred flights before my glow motor is more costly. The DA50 is a fantastic engine. For the last few years gasoline engines had been banned at our field. The big MOKI's fit the bill and were quiet enough for the club.

-Cheech

Thats just me Cheech, sometimes weird people do weird things!!! I am sure yours flys awesome.

Anyhow, the moki 1.8 is apparently the perfect fit if going glow but I wonder if the work good inverted.

100+ flights does not seems like a lot. If you fly 4 times, 1 day a week which is not an exageration, its only 6 months. Although with the way gas prices are going, it might be cheaper to buy glow by the end of 2005 (:

bye

If that is your only plane, then perhaps it's only 6 months. I have 20+ planes and I have many planes 5 years old with less than 100 flights, LOL.

Therefore your nickname, right? addiction.....

You are correct, it will be probably my main airplane and one of no more than 4 at any given time so the break even curve is different for me.

Take care

well, gasoline + redline oil now costs me around $3/gallon, vs. around $6.50/gallon for home-made FAI fuel (methanol from a go-cart supplier, plus 20% to 22% castor), suddenly the extra $350 - $400 spent on the DA will require over 600 flights to start saving me money. Actually, the extra 11 oz. weight of the DA will make a huge difference in the flying capabilities of your Edge as well. YMMV.

Of course, the DA50R IS a great engine with unbelievable power.

Brett

The weight difference is closer than 11 oz difference, fueled and ready to fly:

The Moki has higher fuel consumption, approx 1.5-1.75 times more fuel oz/min than the DA50. Moki fuel, 0% nitro with 18% oil, weighs 15% more than gasoline mix per ounce, depending upon oil content. So, the Moki will need nearly twice the fuel weight on take-off for similar flight times. My guess is that the DA50 and Moki 1.8 will weigh within 6 ounces at take-off.

Choose your poison. They are both great engines!

But if you look at the BME 50, then you have eliminated that 6 oz weight difference, and maybe even shed a little weight over the MOKI. Of all the BME engines I have seen, I dont think you can make any of the any lighter. Thats just something to look at.

Hey, it's possible. I have a BME44 but I don't believe that it's any lighter than my DA50. Does anyone have the real weights, with all of the components as I have listed above (see first reply at the top)? BME, RCShowcase, DA and others are generally a bit optimistic in their published weights. They strip everything possible off the engine to provide the lowest number. Gotta include spark plug, propnut & washer, motor mount/standoffs w/bolts, ignition, battery, switch harness, not to forget a "real" muffler (not a spit diverter).

At any rate, I would be surprised if 6 oz on a 15 lb plane is noticeable to all but the very best pilots. I'm not one of them,

24 floz of glow fuel weighs 20.5 oz, while 16 floz of gasoline weighs 12.3 oz. Each will give enough flight time for 12 minute flights plus sufficient safety margin on a 14-15 pound plane (about 4 minutes of shooting landing approaches).

You could even up the total powertrain mass by using a Moki 2.10 (weighs 4.5 oz more than the 1.80). If the engine is propped down to the mid 7's (in the fat part of the power band) with a 20x10 or 20x8 the fuel draw decreases quite a bit and the noise drops dramatically too. Most reports claim 2.2 oz/minute full throttle, but around 1.5 oz/min in the air.

I wish I had weighed my ZDZ40 , but it weighed (holding one in each hand) about the same with the muffler, ignition, battery, and switch, as my brother's DA50R with muffler and standoffs. Sorry I don't have the actual numbers.

So, similar power, similar weight, higher purchase price vs. higher fuel cost. After several hundred flights the DA would save you money. Pick the best for your situation!

Brett

p.s. I just realized you are talking about the Patrick Edge. That is a high-quality plane, and Dave makes some good recommendations on his website. He states the plane weighs 16 oz more with the ZDZ40 setup, although half of that disapears with the fuel weight differential. Whatever you do, keep it LIGHT and you will love it.

Oh yeah, Byrons FAI fuel ($9/gallon) + 24 oz tank = $1.69/flight, homemade fuel at $7/gallon + 24 oz tank = $1.31/flight, while on gas ($3/gallon with oil) + 16 oz tank= $0.38/flight. Yeah, it is cheaper to go gas vs. nitro. Eventually.

This is still cheaper than a day on the lake. $50,000 boat, 80 gallons of gas between the truck and the boat, etc. Good times!

Brett