I've been hearing some rumblings about controversy with the scoring at the NATS this year and would like to hear from the participants and people who were there. Please keep the discussion civil.

no comment.....

Tony, you comming up to Camden?

Joe,

Hello how's it going. No I will not be making it to camden but I think there are a few people from florida going up for the weekend. As you know I had a midair at the nats and am working franticly to get my plane repaired. Today i will be trying to get my new wings covered. Motor has not made it back from DA yet but should be here any day now. I have the fuse repaired all ready with only the wheel pants left to do. As for the subject of this thread I think it would be better not to say anything. The Nats are probably the biggest IMAC event all year and its a shame that it has this cloud of uncertainty. I must say though it is not only the responsability of the cd to arrange everthing but he must have help from all the regional directors, Maybe each region should nominate a pair of judges that could attend the nats. I was surprised at the lack of help that mark had and how few judges there were. The nats is the main event in IMAC every year and I think that every region must support them with judges and volunteers.


Tony Fandino

You will here rumblings about scoring every time and everywhere they have a contest.
Put on a contest and see.[X(][X(]

The good thing is, it's in all competitions not just RC.

My understanding is that the controversy has more to do with what type of radio you are flying, i.e. Futaba vs JR, and possibly your reputation. Some are saying that the Futaba guys are being scored higher. This is not the first time I've heard this, and I've heard it from more than one source.

Complete BS.
Please dont even go there.

I fly JR and flew at the IMAC Nats. I didnt feel that the Futaba guys were getting scored better.
Thats the dumbest thing I have heard in a while.

There actually was an error built into the scoring for all classes except Sportsman.
It has been rectified (After the contest) and the placements are correct now from what I am hearing.

You are thinking about the XFC..

Hmmm..
Same guy won both those events.
Unlimited win at the Nats and a win at the XFC.

I know the difference between the XFC and the NATS. And, as I said, I have heard this from more than one unrelated source.

No matter what we say here WE are the BAD GUYS for speaking up.

Where is our IMAC President Wally Pitts comments, and others on the IMAC committee, etc....

Where are there comments and suggestions, or help.

What kind of help did Mark get from AMA, IMAC, etc.....???????? Money and or score sheets, Excell programing, etc....

What do our AMA and IMAC dues go for, etc....

I told Mark on the very first day as he gave me a ride on the back of his golf cart to HQ. THANKS for running the NATS, we all appreciate what he and family did.

But would like to here some answers from IMAC and AMA...............

I was not at the NATS but will say that that is a strong accusation to throw out there from someone who wasn't there but heard it through unnamed sources. All this does is put down the folks that worked really hard to put on this event.

Dan

Exactly.

Completely ridiculous comment.

gentlemen, i was one of the primary judges for the unlimited/advanced line. i judged every single day with little to no break. i would love for someone to say to me in person that in any way i'm a biased judge or i give points to futaba vs jr or 3w vs da or whatever. i pride myself in giving people what they deserve whether that be a zero or a ten. i judge by the rules that the ama and imac have laid out for everyone to see. and at any given time i can tell you why/how you scored what you did. to make a point, several of the judges that i judged with had scores within 0- 0.5 - 1 point per maneuver within what i had scored. to me that is pretty darn good. during the unknowns i gave several "team" pilots zeros when they deserved to get zeros, and when they scored a ten-guess what? i gave them a 10. every year, this same stuff happens. team this or team that gets better scores. to tell you the truth, the people that practice, have talent, and present maneuvers well end up placing well. its a simple matter. i give mark,cheryl, keith, marian and all of the other judges and helpers a lot of credit for donating their time to making the 2006 nats a VERY successful event. i give them my thanks and appreciation for giving up their time and holiday weekend for our sport! thank you, Dr. Toby Silhavy

darn right toby!

as a competetor this was the best NATS ive been to (scoring wise) for IMAC.
i would have liked to place better but other things prevented that (RIP 330)[&o].
Mark, Cheryl, and the rest of the crew did a great job, and i have nothing bad to say about this years NATS.

brian

I second what you say toby and thank you for your time and professionalism. I was suprised to see just how overworked you guy's were. Good job under harsh conditions.


tony fandino

I'm probably going to wish later that I didn't get involved in this, but I can't just sit by and watch this crap unfold. Roger, your comments more than any other really bother me. How about this one:

I am right here as your North Central Regional Director wondering what, exactly, you wish to know. Would you care that I spend about 2-3 hours per week working on IMAC related organization stuff? Probably not. Do you know how much $$ I get for this job? Not a penny. How much time in the past year have you spent improving the organization? In case you hadn't realized, this is a volunteer organization, and guess what - you can volunteer! Feel free to step up and take some control. I get so tired of hearing people as "what has IMAC done for this or that." Guess what - YOU ARE IMAC. Same as every board member. And we work our asses off with little or no thanks from anyone. Is it any wonder that IMAC board members get burnt out?

You want to know what your $20 annual IMAC dues gets you? How about a first class website that has a TON of information about airplanes, rules, contest reports, contest schedules, officers reports, and many other miscellaneous items. How about judging seminars - around the country - to help fix the one thing members ***** about more than anything else - poor judging. How about the software that each member of the sequence committee needs to provide you with well-written unknowns EVERY week of the contest season? There are many other things your $20 gets you, but I think this helps to prove a point.

Get real guys. Go out and practice the sequences that the board and sequence committee worked so hard to get you this (and every) year. Go out and enjoy the weekends that the hard working CD's put on for you. Most of all, practice and improve! Then, you won't be sitting at home complaining that Futaba did better than JR or whatever. You'll be taking home some hard earned respect. Get real.

Ken

Well said, Ken. I couldn't agree more....

See I told you I WOULD BE the bad guy.

I do see all this at contest, have been to two judging seminars, etc....and as I said, THANKED Mark and the judges that judged me each and everytime I flew, even aplogized for the way I flew.

I volunteered and scribed, this and last year, did I get paid, no, paid $100 to fly and help.

Ken:
If you want to take this OFF line, please call.

Ken I tried to hold a contest last year and you said we where inside the 250 mile of another contest by 17 miles.

I will PM my phone number to you.
Be glad to talk to you.
As it said , where is our PREZ on this issue...........I am not talking about the JR, FUTABA, AIRTRONICS, CITIZENSHIP Radio BS.

Sorry fo being the bad guy............................................... ....

Call me Ken

I do practice as much as I can, and do appreciate all the work is done at a contest.
The few contest I do go to I hope the CD's remember me Thanking them before and after the conest.

As I said I do not care what people fly either, JR, H9, Carden, FUT.

What I am talking about is other issues.

SIGNED.

The BAD GUY

Does not look like it is just IMAC

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_45...tm.htm#4528848

These rummors always float around ... and in my opinion are completely baseless.

The issues I've seen in Unlimited class:

a) not enough judges - there were numerous cancelations by judges prior to the event. This resulted in 95% of Unlimited flights judged by only 3 or 4 people over and over. Most of these judges, from my understanding, were from the same area (North Central Region). Every judge brings his own version of "what is it supposed to look like" into the judging chair with him. If all of them are used to the style of flying that's prevailing in the area, the local pilots will have a slight advantage. A simple thing as a wing level flight can cost you 0.5 - 1 point, just because the judges consider "level" different than you - if you're the unlucky one and get cought up in it every flight of every round - it will cost you in the end.

b) several missed hard zeros - I still don't uderstand why the ingenious IMAC rules proposal for maneuver judge got tabled

c) unability of pilots to see their individual scores after every round/day of flying - this was a real killer, especially with the same judges judging you over and over and pilots being forbidden to communicate with judges after flight.

d) The software bug that mixed up the K-factors - no biggie there.

e) No access to score sheets after the contest was over - including up until now. That will feed the conspiracy theories for sure.

Considering that at least half of the unlimited pilots were displaying flights with MINIMAL mistakes, the final standings become a partial lottery If pattern can put together FIVE judges for FAI, I think IMAC could as well. In retrospect, I woudn't mind judging couple rounds during the NATS, if in turn I was exposed to more diverse judging pool...


P.

paf,

For the Pattern Nats, do the contestants also judge/scribe?

Regards,

Anna Wood
Queen Creek, AZ

I'm pretty sure they do contestant judging. Every judge is certified, Masters pilots judge FAI, FAI pilots judge Masters.... They don't have to study unknows though

They also run qualification groups with TBL adjusted matrix to determine finalists.

Out of curiosity, I did some scores analysis from our local contest (with 2 judges per round) in the past.
60% of the time, taking only scores from combined Judges #1 would result in different final standings than combined Judges #2....

P.

Your first point is the reason. It is difficult enough on a CD to seat sufficient judges just for the normal contest, adding the requirement for yet another set of judges is simply not reasonable.


I strongly support the no talking to judges idea. Especially at major contests. If you have a question about your scores you go to the Chief Judge or CD, then if they deem it necessary they can go to the judge. But to open it up to every pilot to question/argue with judges, especially if the round is still in progress is not an idea I support.