vertical grimmace

My Feedback: (1)

I was wondering, is it neccesary for IMAC events to be 2 days? This is mandatory for the points system I have heard.
The reason why I ask is, recently IMAC has seen a significant decline in participation here locally and it is difficult to justify a 2 day event for 10-14 pilots. Our resident CD insists 2 days are needed. I would like to here thoughts on this as my club is now pondering next years schedule of events and with the quantity of events on our shcedule, it is difficult to justify closing the field for 2 days for such a minimal amount of entries.

bhanley

Two days are not a requirement. One round can make a contest - though not desireable.
Unknowns are also not a requirement, though they are desireable.
Read the intro material in the Flying & Judging Guide.

ROGER RUSSELL

My Feedback: (12)

I some what agree.

It takes the same amount of man power to do a OPEN HOUSE as it does a IMAC contest, maybe less.
The OPEN HOUSE will attract more people, flyers and is more SPECTATOR FRIENDLY. Unless you know what to look for in IMAC it can get boring.
We had a contest this past September and due to Tuscon points no longer in effect and other reasons, people stayed away, we had 28 pilots first year and was down to 14 this year.

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

How many fliers do you think would drive 250+ miles each way for a one day contest? I won't.

ROGER RUSSELL

My Feedback: (12)

I would have to agree to that too..................LOL

I kinda got off the subject a little.

If you travel that far you might as well fly two days..........Good point.

Silent-AV8R

Out here in the west experience has shown that a fairly large number of people will drive that, and more, for a good contest.

The IMAC contest template does stipulate that a 2-day contest is the target. It can be cut short due to weather, etc.

vertical grimmace

My Feedback: (1)

The problem is, not only are the pilots from other states not coming, neither are the locals. Attracting pilots from other states is not the issue of this thread. It is the point of this thread to help save this event from being eliminated from our contest calendar. I am not an IMAC pilot but I am a CD and run other events. Just wondering if it is imperative for the event to take 2 days? This aspect of the event makes it difficult to justify from a club standpoint with so few entries. I will propose that unless X amount of pre-registrations are not recieved then it be shortened to 1 day. I feel the cutoff should maybe be around 20 (anticipated entries not pre-registers).
If the CD wants to attract pilots from around the district or even beyond, he needs to attend other events within the district. But to be honest if this event dies, it will provide me with the oportunity to hold a combat meet.
That being said, the intention of this thread is really to aid the CD in preserving the event and if it does take place, I was planning on entering myself.
Also it seems to me that if participation is diminishing, maybe something should be done to help stimulate participation. It seems there are so many IMAC legal planes flying, it should not take a lot of coaxing to get someone to reduce their control throws, exit the hover and start flying in some competition.

jeide

My Feedback: (111)

I would be more inclined to go to 1 day events. The weekends go by so fast as it is. Maybe designate 1 contest each year as the big one and make that a 2 day event.

Zeeb

My Feedback: (41)

I think Roger is onto something that our local (State) guy has been trying to address with no success so far....

With the early cutoff date for Tucson, things around here have literally died. Could that be the cause in and of itself? I doubt it but it's certainly a contributing factor IMHO.

As a newbie to IMAC, I'd like to have the opportunity to participate more but until someone figures out what the magic formula is for attracting participants that's probably not going to happen. As has been noted above, there are quite a few IMAC birds around here that just don't fly anymore.

Would I drive to a one day event? Sure, it affords me the opportunity to go and I can stay overnight or head back home. Sure it's a long day, but considering what gas goes for these days, some folks may not have it in the budget for adding a motel and the extra meals for a two day event.

I'll have to watch this thread and see if anyone comes up with the magic solution to increased participation...

Silent-AV8R

One question. For a 1-day event how would you handle the Unknowns?? These are an absolutely integral part of an IMAC contest and I cannot see how you could do this is a 1-day event??

At a 2-day event you hand them out at the end of day 1 and then fly them first thing on day 2.

I don't think you will get people who want to come to a contest and fly the Knowns sequence only, and only two rounds at that.

If you cannot have a 2-day contest, why not hold a 1 day clinic. Or maybe a 1 day Basic / Sportsman contest or something like that.?

Here is the official IMAC Contest Gide. Any CD who wants to have a contest and have it be called an IMAC contest should try to stick pretty close to this. At least if you want the points to count for the pilots who fly there.

[link=http://www.mini-iac.com/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/03,%20IMAC%20Rules%20and%20Guidelines/Current/IMAC_Official_Contest_Guide_Rev_2.pdf]IMAC Contest Guide[/link]

vertical grimmace

My Feedback: (1)

This is what I was wondering about. So essentially it is impossible. That is too bad.

Silent-AV8R

Well, not "impossible". You can contact your IMAC Regional Director and explain your circumstances and see what you can work out. As I said, a "regulation" contest is a 2-day event and it is so almost by necessity. But there are lots of options. Down here in the SW a couple of clubs have had great success with 1-day judging events, Basic/Sportsman Clinic, and so on.

But you have to keep in mind that IMAC at its core is a competitive event and is driven by that competition. This is why the structure is what it is. If IMAC is having a hard time in your area I sincerely doubt it is due to the need for 2-day contests. Our region covers a huge area and the guys who are into it, travel. It is that simple.

There are a whole ream of other events that you and your club can host that can involve IMAC, or not. But to try to change the format simply to accommodate a club's desire to only have a one day event is not doing any service to the competitors.
It may just be that there are not enough people in your area who are interested in competition, and that is fine. Do something to accommodate those guys.

DMichael

My Feedback: (5)

I've been a CD at the CAPI IMAC for several years now.

If you choose to have a one day contest that is absolutely fine. Unknowns are not a requirement. Even so, I have been to contests that handed out unkowns in the morning and flew them at the end of the day. Without looking over the guidelines I can't be sure but I believe this just requires that you announce this deviation at least 30 days prior to the contest.

You could fly 2 known rounds and an unknown round or just 3 known rounds and zero unknown rounds.

If you are choosing between not having a contest at all and having a one day contest with no unknowns then the choice is easy. There are many people who can take one day off for flying on the weekend but not two- perhaps you will find that interest will grow if you do a one day contest and hook some flyers who might not otherwise participated.

Dave Michael

Silent-AV8R

I think you need to actually look at the guidelines. The whole point is to provide competitors with a consistent contest experience. A CD is certainly free to do whatever they want to as long as they publish it in the sanction request and make certain that the potential attendees are aware of what the CD intends to do.

The question then becomes at what point will a Regional Director decide that a contest wandered far enough off the template that it should not count for the regional points race.

bhanley

The "guidelines" that you refer to are just that - guidelines. They hold no force. The CD can run a
one day contest, with or without Unknowns, and the Unknowns, if used, may be distributed
on the day of the contest.

Echoes

My Feedback: (8)

One day events are ok if you only have a few at the contest. I was at one this year where there was only 10 flyers, that's like 2 per division so realy there's no compition and your probly flying against your buddy you came with. So why not fly 3 or 4 rounds and an unknown and go home. Save motel and food money.
I know that's tough but it happens, so you mark that one off your list for next year. JMO

BillyGoat

Iā€™ll second that. Between family and the need to get stuff done around the house I just donā€™t have time to invest in a two day event. Iā€™m sure there are a ton of guys in the same predicament.

Tony Fandino

My Feedback: (8)

As a CD i would ask the question, why is my contest drawing fewer and fewer People ? What can we do as a club to attract more pilots. Personally i would not travel to a one day contest. When I go to a contest i expect to get as much flying in as humanly possible and the unknows are a must. Its what really makes an IMAC contest. I ask you one question what does the club give back to the pilots for coming to their event. Prizes , Food, drinks, raffles. As a CD i work my butt off for months to make all the arrangements to make all things stated above to happen. I good freestyle is very attractive to spectators. Our contest every year attracts hundreds of spectators through out the weekend. You have to get those press releases out and make your event happen. To me it sounds like you would rather let IMAC fissile and die so you can hold some other type of event. Putting on a successful event takes many months of hard work are you and your club up to the challenge ?


Tony Fandino

Silent-AV8R

I said as much above. BUT, the question then becomes will the countest count towards the regional points race?? That decision is up to the IMAC Regional Director.

vertical grimmace

My Feedback: (1)

I am not the CD of our IMAC event but am just trying to gain some insight into the need to hold a 2 day event for 12-14 entries. My club entertains just about every event possible and with the number of weekends diminishing with all of this activity it makes it more difficult to justify closing the field for 2 days when ther are not many pilots present.
Yes, if IMAC goes away at our club I will fill the space with moost likely a combat event. Something that I know can be done with by early in the afternoon.
Generating interest in events can be tricky. My experience is with pylon, C\L Combat and RC combat. I thoght IMAC was doing just fine but at least in our area it is down. So is Pattern. My point of this thread is not to solve a participation problem with IMAC, it is to see if I can shorten the event to 1 day and argue this to the current CD. Obviously no out of towners are coming anyway so I suppose it will not be a problem.

downhumpty

My Feedback: (1)

VG,
At your last contest how many different classes were there? You say the attendance is deminishing? I may be able to shine light on your excitement.

CHANGED MY MIND! Here read this! No where does it state that a IMAC event has to last 2 DAY'S!

IMAC OFFICAL CONTEST STANDARDS GUIDE

A. PURPOSE
The purpose of this document is to define what comprises a valid 2-day (typical weekend) IMAC contest in order to ensure that participants in IMAC events can anticipate a predictable and consistent contest environment regardless of the location or Region in which the contest is held.
For IMAC events encompassing three or more days and/or having an unusually large ratio of Known sequences flown to Unknown sequences flown, see Appendix A for schedule of dropped sequences. Requirements and Contest Template Sections remain basically the same for multiple day events.

B. OBJECTIVE
The objective of this document is to provide Contest Directors (CDs) the guidance necessary to organize and conduct a valid IMAC contest.

C. REQUIREMENTS
In order for a Scale Aerobatics contest to be designated and recognized as a valid IMAC contest, and for any points to be awarded and used for Regional Annual Points Races, the following minimum requirements must be met:
1.
The contest must be sanctioned with the AMA or if the contest is held outside of the United States, sanctioned by that countryā€™s respective sanctioning body.

2.
The current AMA Safety Code and IMAC Safety Code must be strictly enforced at all times during the contest dates. This includes before and after hours activities.

3.
The contest must be run in accordance with the current AMA rulebook for Scale Aerobatic events. Waivers as approved by the AMA or IMAC Board are allowed.

4.
Deviations and Waivers must be published in advance. The preferred method is as part of the sanction. However, in no case should any deviation or waiver be published less than 30 days prior to the date of the event.

5.
Deviations shall be approved by the AMA (as part of the sanction process), or IMAC Board prior to publication.

6.
The contest shall follow the IMAC approved template detailed below.



D. CONTEST TEMPLATE
A valid IMAC contest will consist of the following:
1.
All five competitive classes shall be included on the AMA Sanction request.

2.
Freestyle is not required to be offered. However, if it is, then all applicable AMA and IMAC rules shall be followed.

3.
Entry is open to all current AMA members.

4.
A Discounted entry fee will be offered to IMAC members.


IMAC OFFICAL CONTEST STANDARDS GUIDE
5.
Contests will use the published Known sequences for each class for the current calendar year.

6.
A total of six (6) Known sequences should be flown. This allows for dropping the 2 lowest sequences for each pilot. However, it is recognized that this may not always be possible due to weather or unforeseen circumstance. Each CD should have, as his or her main goal, the flying of no less than six Known sequences per class at their contests.

7.
Unknowns should be obtained from the IMAC Sequence Committee (ISC). However, if not obtained from the ISC, all unknowns are required to be approved by the ISC prior to use.

a.
Unknowns shall not exceed 15 figures as detailed in the AMA rule book.

b.
All Unknowns shall be constructed in strict accordance with the current Edition of the Aresti System (Condensed) and IMAC Unknown Catalog for each class.




8.
An Unknown sequence for the Sportsman through Unlimited classes shall be flown unless prevented by inclement weather or in the case where the IMAC Board or respective Regional Director approved not flying the Unknown.

9.
The Basic class will not fly an Unknown at any IMAC contest.

10.
In Lieu of An Unknown Sequence, the Basic Class shall fly an additional Known Sequence

11.
Only one Unknown sequence will be flown at a two day event. More than two day events may have multiple Unknowns; however, each Unknown sequence MUST be scored separately and calculated into the pilot's score as separate sequences. Multiple Unknown sequences cannot be added together to arrive at a single Unknown score. If more than one Unknown sequence is flown, one or more may be dropped at the discretion of the CD (see Appendix A). All sequences, Known and Unknown, will follow the procedure for normalized scoring and drops as defined in the current AMA rule book for Scale Aerobatics and Appendix A. In no case shall the Unknown sequences comprise more than 40%, nor less than 20% of the total normalized score

12.
All Unknowns will be made available to pilots on the day prior to when they will be flown.

13.
Adjustments required due to inclement weather or other conditions beyond the control of the CD are authorized. Prior to any adjustments, CD coordination with the respective Regional Director is encouraged. In any case, the ratio of Knowns to Unknowns referenced in Appendix "Aā€¯ must be maintained.

14.
Additional events such as surprise Unknowns, etc., are not authorized or recognized as part of official IMAC aerobatic contests. Contests offering these types of events may use the designation of "IMAC-Style" event, in which case it must be included in the advertisement of the event. Regional points for this type event may not be used to determine regional standings unless prior approval has been obtained from the IMAC Board of Directors.



SE IMAC
Contest Director

Silent-AV8R

Well, as one of the principal authors of this document I think you are not reading it correctly.

Let's look at a couple of things.

Then there is this:

Tough to do in a single day.

Then this:

VERY tough to do with a 1 day event.

Again, a CD can fly anything he wants to, BUT, if you want it to count towards regional points races it is expected to be a 2-day contest which follows the published format. Not sure how many pilots you think you can attract to a contest that would not count, but you are free to do it if you want.

Silent-AV8R

In your particular situation I think you should contact the IMAC RD for your area and see what can be done to help you. With that small a number of pilots you should be able to get a good bit a flying in a single day. You might hand out Unknowns first thing and fly them last.

With 50 pilots you can get 300 sequences flown on Saturday and 150 on Sunday.

With 15 pilots you should be able to get 6 Knowns and the Unknown flown in a single day. The hard part will be judges, scribes, etc. Since with that few pilots you will likely only be able to support a single flight line. But I think you can still get it done with some planning and by keeping the numbers down. Once you get over 20 or so pilots it gets hard to fulfill the template in a single day event.

And again, you are totally free to fly a 1-day event. The very worst thing that could happen is that it does not count for the regional points race. If that is not an issue to the 15 pilots you get, then go forth and have fun!!!

downhumpty

My Feedback: (1)

13.
Adjustments required due to inclement weather or other conditions beyond the control of the CD are authorized. Prior to any adjustments, CD coordination with the respective Regional Director is encouraged. In any case, the ratio of Knowns to Unknowns referenced in Appendix "Aā€¯ must be maintained.
With that....
I totally agree with the following..

Quote.
"With 15 pilots you should be able to get 6 Knowns and the Unknown flown in a single day. The hard part will be judges, scribes, etc. Since with that few pilots you will likely only be able to support a single flight line. But I think you can still get it done with some planning and by keeping the numbers down. Once you get over 20 or so pilots it gets hard to fulfill the template in a single day event."

Quote.
"And again, you are totally free to fly a 1-day event. The very worst thing that could happen is that it does not count for the regional points race. If that is not an issue to the 15 pilots you get, then go forth and have fun!!! "

I would hate to think that a RD would reject Regional points for having a one day event. I'd understand if they pull a surprise unknown or split Judges in a round or some other violation, but not for having a one day event and maintaining the ratio of knowns and unknowns as referenced in Appendix A of the IMAC OFFICIAL CONTEST STANDARDS GUIDE.

You will have to discuss you event and respective attentive dates with your RD because he/she will have to approve all contest in their respective region.
OK.. I'll drop it!

SE IMAC
Contest Director

vertical grimmace

My Feedback: (1)

I thank everyone for their input. I think maybe this thread can help others with similar situations. It is sometimes difficult for us (competitors) to believe others (in the club) may not be interested in our aspect of the hobby. I am finding that for the success of our events, it is imperative to be sensitive to the needs of the sport flying members of our clubs. Without our clubs though, the events themselves would not be possible.